How to set up an online directory?

nixermixer

Hi there,

I am at the initial thought stages of settign up an online directory for a particular service. Obviously I will have to set up the website etc.....that is the easy part as I can model mine off some of the ones already out there. My question is about how I get the providers to advertise on my site. If I have a brand new site with no service providers on it how can I attract others to advertise? Do I need to approach the providers in advance? If so is it a case of email, phonecall or what?

Could I go ahead and stick them up on the site for a period of time and then approach them at a later date about signing up properly and charging them for the service.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

sirreally

Without question, you will have to offer free basic listings to companies. There are hundreds of business directories out there, so why would anyone spend a single cent advertising on some other new service with no traffic?

What you'll probably find is that a very large percentage of those offered free listings won't even bother to take 5 minutes to add their company details. It sounds strange but inertia is incredibly strong when it comes to things like this. They won't see the benefit, they won't believe that this one will help them. They just won't care. It sounds very harsh, but I promise this is true.

This means the only way to go about it is to scrape the information en masse from other directories out there. Just add all of the relevant companies to your site without asking them for permission. Then, once you have the content, i.e. a decent directory, you'll see whether or not you can attract visitors to the site. Once you have visitors, it may start becoming attractive to the businesses being listed; at that stage, you could offer some sort of enhanced listing to them, for a small fee.

tricky D

There's loads of reviews here and in the Web Design forum on these kinds of directories. To reiterate sirreally's points, you must have a freemium part of the business model and must basically populate it yourself beyond a critical mass for any credibility. Getting the formula right is nowhere near as easy as it first seems and most of these sites dwindle away. The market is saturated with poorly executed sites. You really, really need to know what you are doing and the successful ones usually have some sort of financial or resource backing and a underexploited niche can be a big help.

Chet Zar

Depends a huge amount on the industry. Most or all of the obvious areas will already be covered, e.g. photography, beauty, tutors (although I have seen a very well executed tutor-directory site come on the scene very recently - again if you can execute well, you can always do well!).

As mentioned, if you can identify a niche, you may have first-mover advantage, or at least do things a lot better than your competitors. If I had a euro for every terribly-designed directory site I've ever seen...

A good example of an unexploited niche was www.perfectring.com.

nixermixer

apologies if i'm coming across as very niaive but better ask the questions i suppose!!.......sirrealy you mentioned about putting up the info without their permission...i wonder is there any legal implications to this...are there any particular advertising laws i'd need to be caerful of?...obviously i'd have to check it out.

I do appreciate the realism you all have brought to the table however from my initial research there doesn't appear to be an irish directory offering the service mine would....The idea is very simple....maybe too simple....my further research will tell more i suppose...However when you look at websites like Weddingsonline.ie and Build.ie etc....those ideas couldnt be any simpler either?

Tricky D.....you mentioned about a strong finacial / resource backing for the successful sites....Do you really think running a directory is a costly business idea?

Has anyone any idea of what kind of money i could expect to pay to develop a site like one of the above mentioned sites?

jmcc

nixermixer wrote: »

Hi there,

I am at the initial thought stages of settign up an online directory for a particular service. Obviously I will have to set up the website etc.....that is the easy part

Wrong. That's actually the hardest part of the process. Most mickey mouse php scripts will fall over once you reach a significant number of sites and a decent bit of traffic. You have to plan for that and also make sure that it is fast and people can find what they want with the minimum of hassle. It sounds easy but it really is a lot more difficult than people think.

If I have a brand new site with no service providers on it how can I attract others to advertise?

Again you are approaching this wrongly. The key question is traffic. Why should anyone advertise on a site where nobody will see the advertisement? You have to build up traffic to your directory before advertisers will take you seriously.

Regards...jmcc

Chet Zar

nixermixer wrote: »

from my initial research there doesn't appear to be an irish directory offering the service mine would....The idea is very simple....maybe too simple....my further research will tell more i suppose...

Forget about advertising - the bit above is the only part that matters right now. If there is no Irish directory covering the area you have in mind, it'd likely down to two factors:

1) Nobody has exploited the niche yet (possible)
2) There isn't a sufficient demand (quite possible)

For example, I don't believe there is an Irish squash court directory out there. That'd be a fairly niche area in the sense that relatively speaking, only a small percentage of the population play, or have an interest in, squash. So, if in this case 1) above does not apply, then it leads us to 2) above. There likely isn't a sufficient demand for such a commercial service.

That isn't to say that if you set up a squash court directory, that people wouldn't post ads on it or use it. I've often found it difficult to find out about the existence of sporting facilities, save from asking around and looking on the websites of various sports centres/clubs. So, while I would find it useful to have the use of such a website, it doesn't mean that you would make any money out of it for the simple reason that the demand for knowing the location of squash courts is probably not at a level where it would generate enough traffic to demand advertising rates.

Which brings it back to the industry/niche in question, and on the market research which will give you a strong indication as to the demand, or lack thereof, for your proposed service.

Charity2020

sirreally wrote: »

Without question, you will have to offer free basic listings to companies. There are hundreds of business directories out there, so why would anyone spend a single cent advertising on some other new service with no traffic?

You need to offer free listings until such time as you have enough traffic to justify charging. Been there.
Any charge will depend on the level of traffic.
Best of luck.... not an easy job.

nixermixer

well i wouldn't say it is a niche by any means but there doesn't appear to be a directory offering the service. In fact the category is very broad and covers various disciplines with the potential to attract a huge amount of providers. The problem is obviously getting them to advertise on it. The targeted providers would be already advertising on the golden pages and perhaps other directories but this directory would be specific to their business. When you look at the costs of advertising on directories like golden pages, whatswhat, build.ie etc it seems ridiculous. I was thinking more along the lines of €5-10 per year for a basic advert i.e. name, tel and weblink.

All the replies so far have mentioned traffic on the site. Obviously this is of huge importance but I would have thought the SEO thing was of equal if not more importance? If I could tell a provider (or demonstrate) my site will be the first to come on google when searching for their service, surely this would offer serious credibility?

Thanks to everyone that's giving me feedback. Much Appreciated!!

sirreally

nixermixer wrote: »

sirrealy you mentioned about putting up the info without their permission...i wonder is there any legal implications to this...are there any particular advertising laws i'd need to be caerful of?

Not that I know of, but I'm open to correction. Assuming we're talking about companies here, presumably they will want to be found in the first place. Data protection laws should not be an issue, or even applicable. I have heard examples of directories using this tactic effectively, whereby the organisations being listed could change, ignore or even delete their directory entry. Again, I don't know the exact legal ramifications, but I think a shoot first, ask questions later approach is ok here.

nixermixer wrote: »

When you look at the costs of advertising on directories like golden pages, whatswhat, build.ie etc it seems ridiculous. I was thinking more along the lines of €5-10 per year for a basic advert i.e. name, tel and weblink.

These are services that have built up some credibility, and presumably advertisers get some benefit from them (or else they won't renew). There are plenty of websites where a business can spend a small amount of money in order to be listed. You will have to prove that there is any point being listed on yours.

nixermixer wrote: »

All the replies so far have mentioned traffic on the site. Obviously this is of huge importance but I would have thought the SEO thing was of equal if not more importance? If I could tell a provider (or demonstrate) my site will be the first to come on google when searching for their service, surely this would offer serious credibility?

SEO is just a means to get the traffic. Granted, it's the best means, but the traffic is what is important. If the SEO approach works, then absolutely it will add credibility and, presumably, value. Again though, you'll have to prove the model before anyone will consider paying for it.

I also completely agree with jmcc - getting the website and search directory right is not straightforward, and will have to be done to an extremely high standard in order for consumers and advertisers to take it seriously.

Best of luck with the venture!

nixermixer

Cheers.

One final bit of advice required. Where do I start in terms of market research? Do Dublin City Enterprise offer support in this regard?

sirreally

nixermixer wrote: »

Cheers.

One final bit of advice required. Where do I start in terms of market research? Do Dublin City Enterprise offer support in this regard?

They offer meetings with mentors, who can advise on that sort of thing - best to just ring them. Please don't take offence but it's a little concerning when you ask a question like that. You may get a little help here and there but you'll need to get used to being resourceful and relying only on yourself to make things happen.

As regards market research and setting up a business generally, here's some great advice I found elsewhere and posted on another thread here recently:

"Before you start your new company, figure out what your product is, then figure out who will buy it (I mean, who is the specific person in an organisation that would need to make a purchase decision). Then, go talk to 2 or 3 of those people.

At this stage, if you can't figure out who those people are, then you have a problem that isn't going to go away once you've spent 12 months building your product. You have no market, do something else.

If you can't get a meeting with those people, then you also have a problem that isn't going to go away after you've built your product. You can't penetrate your market, do something else.

When you get a meeting with them, don't try to pitch them your idea. Tell them that you are exploring a market opportunity, and that you'd like to describe a product and ask them if they would buy it. Make it clear to them that they are very welcome to say "no, I won't buy that". In fact, you should try to get them to tell you they won't buy it. If they tell you they won't buy it, your market doesn't want it, do something else.

If they say they'll buy it, ask them if they would sign a non-binding letter of intent saying that if you build the product, and it does what you say it will do, that they will purchase it. This commits them to nothing, but these LoIs are gold if you are ever pitching investors. They are also a robust sign that they aren't just telling you what you want to hear. If they won't sign LoIs, then they weren't serious when they said they'd buy your product, your market doesn't want it, do something else.

Get 2 or three LoIs in your back pocket, then you're ready to quit your job and start your business.

I guess the key idea here that most entrepreneurs miss is that you really need to vet your own ideas. Many aspiring entrepreneurs dream up an idea, and then stick to it doggedly, either because its the only idea they have, or they find it technically interesting. They don't want to discover that it won't work, so they don't try to figure it out!

The one thing worse than not starting a company is wasting 6 or 12 months of your life on an idea that has no market. Be smart, and do your due diligence on your own ideas before you take the plunge and start a company."

sparky28

Hi Nixermixer, There are basically three types of online directory in operation here. The big players like goldenpages.ie and yourlocal.ie have a huge slice of the market and massive traffic through their sites. Thats how they justify their prices. The next level are the mid table players like whatswhat.ie, build.ie, onlinetradesman.ie, needit.ie and so on. They offer a good service and charge less then the big players. Below that again there are a lot of small unknown directories. These are mostly very poorly designed and will never attain an online presence.

The first thing I suggest you do is study your compeditors in huge detail and ask yourself what you can do either better of cheaper. Then think about the costs involved in getting your site built and published. The back end of your site (the search engine) is critical to any online directory and needs to be build by a professional. The worst thing is to publish a badly designed and badly working website.

In terms of SEO, if you are serious about the idea then you will need to invest some money in Google adwords. You decide how much you pay but every bit helps. Social media is another great way to get your name out there. Bets of luck.

jmcc

sparky28 wrote: »

Hi Nixermixer, There are basically three types of online directory in operation here. The big players like goldenpages.ie and yourlocal.ie have a huge slice of the market and massive traffic through their sites.

Don't think that they do.

Regards...jmcc

sparky28

jmcc wrote: »

Don't think that they do.

Regards...jmcc

In terms of the market as it stands they both stand out as the leaders in their field. Maybe the term massive traffic is open to interpretation but they have a much higher visit count then any of the other players and charge a lot more based on that fact.

jmcc

sparky28 wrote: »

In terms of the market as it stands they both stand out as the leaders in their field.

Well from anecdotal evidence, they are crap. As for usability, the GP one is complete rubbish. Just checked for "web developer" and "Waterford" and yourlocal provided results from a 300 Km radius because it couldn't find any in Waterford because it doesn't have in-depth content.

Maybe the term massive traffic is open to interpretation but they have a much higher visit count then any of the other players and charge a lot more based on that fact.

They charge a lot more because people are gullible enough to pay. The term "massive traffic" is open to interpretation as are these visitor counts. One of my sites gets an average of 250K page impressions a day and had over 5.5 million page impressions in November 2011. However not all of those impressions are human vistors. Web directory traffic is, by its nature very shallow. On a good directory, the user finds exactly what they want and they bounce off the site quickly. On a badly designed directory site, a user will have to plow through pages of content just to find what they want. This makes the directory page impression count increase and marketing types then sell that to potential advertisers as being evidence of some kind of success. From the user point of view, it is not. The bounce rate on a good directory is going to be upwards of 85% and the page impressions per user should average at about 3.

Regards...jmcc

nixermixer

Ok folks the general feedback im getting is all about getting traffic to my site.

Just to change the perspective for a moment. Obviously its not easy to get providers to buy into the idea of paying for advertising on a new directory. As i mentioned in one of my earlier posts, the website has the potential to attract a huge amount of providers across a range of disciplines. What if i were to approach a small amount of providers in a particular area and tell them that i was going to cap the amount of providers advertised. At the end of the day, the providers will fund the site so what about giving them the comfort of knowing they are going to be part of a select few? For example I just went onto Golden Pages and submitted a search for Ladies Hairdressers in Naas Co. Kildare.....25 listings came up. What if I approached say 5 of these and told them that they were 5 of 25 that will appear in the search and I would charge them about a fifth of what the Golden Pages charge? I know i'd be moving away from the 'spirit' of a directory but it may achieve quicker results, allow me to fund this idea which will inturn fund advertising and thus the expansion of the site? Ladies Hairdressing is far from my idea but its just an example.....

I'm not looking to be the next golden pages, i'm looking to build a decent site that could potentially yield a second income for me? I don't intend quitting the day job just yet. Although if I could fund the expansion of it I certainly would.

zAbbo

You're assuming that there's a demonstrable benefit in being listed on a directory which doesn't have a visitor focus.

The directory business model is dead to all but a few websites (globally).

Axwell

nixermixer wrote: »

For example I just went onto Golden Pages and submitted a search for Ladies Hairdressers in Naas Co. Kildare.....25 listings came up. What if I approached say 5 of these and told them that they were 5 of 25 that will appear in the search and I would charge them about a fifth of what the Golden Pages charge?

But everyone knows the Golden Pages so those 25 listings know there is decent traffic to justify what they are paying. Starting off you cant offer or guarantee that to them. Appearing in your search has no value to them if no one is on the site searching to begin with.

allaboutclicks

Traffic stats on goldenpages.ie
http://www.checksitetraffic.com/traffic_spy/goldenpages.ie
and yourlocal.ie
http://www.checksitetraffic.com/traffic_spy/yourlocal.ie

Look pretty good - especially goldenpages

jmcc

allaboutclicks wrote: »

Traffic stats on goldenpages.ie
http://www.checksitetraffic.com/traffic_spy/goldenpages.ie

More rubbish based on Alexa's rather dubious figures which are based on people using its spyware toolbar.

This is what GP claims on its website:
The website has approximately 780,000 users sessions each month, generating over 1.7 million searches each month. Notice the discrepancy between user sessions and searches? That's not because the GP is sticky. It is because people are failing to get what they are searching for when they search. The 2:1 ratio of searches to sessions on a non-sticky site is an indication of a screwed up site.

No specific month mentioned. No specific set of searches or whether they were human or bot searches. And Jaipur is in India not Ireland.

1.7M searches - that's about 54838 searches per 31 day month. That's approximately 2285 searches per hour, 38 per minute and 0.63 per second.

and yourlocal.ie
http://www.checksitetraffic.com/traffic_spy/yourlocal.ie

Again the same dubious Alexa data.

Look pretty good - especially goldenpages

Only if you don't understand web analytics and the advertisers they are pitching at typically do not.

There's a very simple reason why sites like Goldenpages and Yourlocal fail: language. The designers of these sites do not think like their users and they are forcing the users to search with a set of words/phrases that they, not their users, have chosen. This means that the users have, in effect to learn a new language to search for something very simple. In addition, the depth of content in Yourlocal is just not there.

Regards...jmcc

allaboutclicks

No webstat figures are perfect - these may not be the most accurate set of figures but they give a reasonable indication of traffic to the site.

I was surprised by goldenpages results - I don't think it's a great site but I think it still gets decent traffic because it's such a well known brand - and I think that's where they've fallen down - they rely too much on the brand rather than on the service.

jmcc

allaboutclicks wrote: »

No webstat figures are perfect - these may not be the most accurate set of figures but they give a reasonable indication of traffic to the site.

They don't. If you look at the source of the pages, you will see Google Analytics code. This means that each page hit could produce at least one more search engine spider impression. There are other search engine spiders that will also inflate that figure. Including crawler page impressions might inflate the webstats.

Regards...jmcc

allaboutclicks

Yes - this would be why I said no webstats are perfect.

There are always "spam" clicks in among the actual human clicks. It is impossible for webstats to be 100%. Any analytics provider promising anything like that is talking utter nonsense. Even "human clicks" can give misleading figures. For instance anyone concerned enough about their privacy to turn on the privacy settings in their browser is going to always going to appear as a unique visitor. Does this mean it's utterly pointless using cookies to track repeat visitors? No, of course not you still get enough data to have a reasonable (usually more than reasonable) indication of visitor behaviour on your website.

You appear to have a fair bit of experience with analytics so I'm sure you are aware that if you are using multiple scripts to track things they always give slightly different results and lets not even talk about the raw webstats from your server logs...

There's no denying that certain programs give more accurate results than others but personally I don't think you can dismiss any set of figures as being totally unrealistic. I mean unless you know of some website where someone is just sitting there plucking random numbers out of the air and generating some pretty graphs - wow that does sound like a more fun way of making money though...

jmcc

allaboutclicks wrote: »

There's no denying that certain programs give more accurate results than others but personally I don't think you can dismiss any set of figures as being totally unrealistic.

I can but then I'm very cynical. I know how websites and businesses will overstate their traffic and figures without any stats to back them up. In the case of the GP figures are worthless without stats because you don't know what time period to which they apply or whether they are accurate.

Regards...jmcc

allaboutclicks

I don't totally disagree but I think the figures are a good indication. I'll leave it at that

sparky28

Has anyone any idea of what kind of money i could expect to pay to develop a site like one of the above mentioned sites?[/QUOTE]

Based on prevoius experience I'd say yop would be looking at a figure of somewhere between €8k and €12k. You will need to have a professionally built/designed site and the search engine needs to be robust enough to cope with a high traffic demand.

jmcc

sparky28 wrote: »

Based on prevoius experience I'd say yop would be looking at a figure of somewhere between €8k and €12k. You will need to have a professionally built/designed site and the search engine needs to be robust enough to cope with a high traffic demand.

That would be about right. The main expense when it comes to a high-traffic database backed design is the database architect's time. The problem is that every web developer seems to think that they can design a high performance database backend and the customer only finds out that they cannot and have not when the site gets traffic.

This might be getting a bit ahead of the situation but big sites tend not to use live updates. The main database gets updated on a fixed schedule with minimal impact to the performance of the site and the majority of the database transactions are reads/selects. With an online directory, the db design objective is to make most of the database transaction reads.

Regards...jmcc