Kate Bolick: why marriage is a declining option for modern women

southsiderosie

doovdela wrote: »

Women don't have to just settle on careers alone but don't have just settle on being a housewife with kids. That has all changed in the past few decades. Women can have it all if they want. Not a big deal. Men and women are equal so shouldn't matter how women live their lives as housewives or career women or both. Women shouldn't feel under pressure to just settle down for the sake of it!?

I think the whole 'women can have it all if they want' this is one of the biggest fallacies of modern society. The whole 'I'll have a fabulous career and start having babies in my late 30s' and/or 'I'll have my nice suburban house with a high flying/creatively and emotionally fulfilling job in the city' thing is absurd, and this kind of thinking only sets lot of women up for disappointment.

I agree that women should be able to make their own choices. But I think a lot of women are making choices under false pretenses.

In addition, I also think one of the core observations of the article is that, when it comes to marriage, women simply do not have as much choice. We've been telling ourselves that this is something that we can defer making a choice on until the spirit moves us, but Bolick is saying that the social and economic changes in Western society suggest that, actually, you don't have much choice at all. The bigger question then is, what are the implications of this for women who want to be married? Given the experience of college educated black women in the U.S. (who outnumber their black male counterparts 2:1), the future does not look good; when the marriageable pool of men shrinks, men have even less incentive to settle down. In turn, this puts the pressure on women to 'settle' for any semi-decent guy who comes along, because lord knows if they will have a chance to do so in the future.

iguana

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think the whole 'women can have it all if they want' this is one of the biggest fallacies of modern society. The whole 'I'll have a fabulous career and start having babies in my late 30s' and/or 'I'll have my nice suburban house with a high flying/creatively and emotionally fulfilling job in the city' thing is absurd, and this kind of thinking only sets lot of women up for disappointment.

I agree that women should be able to make their own choices. But I think a lot of women are making choices under false pretenses.

That's the thing that some people don't seem to get about choices. They are just that. When you choose you usually pick one thing over the other, not have everything. Yes there will be some quite small amount of women (and men obv but this is about women) who will get to have it all, but they are the exception and just as equally there will be some small amount women who don't get to have much of anything that they want at all.

I think it's all about choosing what's the most important thing to you and going for that because trying to have everything is likely to get your fist stuck in the jar.

starlit

There is an article in the Independent Weekender based on women at 40, should stay single forever or marry someone good enough for them. The author in the article in question was with an eligible guy that she could have married but she didn't.

She ended the stable relationship as she felt she wasn't ready to settle down that was her at 28. Now 39 she doesn't know where her path leads. She always thought she marry but took it for granted she marry when older as she was a young girl. But when she hit 30 she didn't feel the need to. Not short of boyfriends growing up. She wanted to be an independent girl go travelling and build up her career and so on despite her friends being engaged, settling down or married.

Her mother instilled one thing in her mind was that she can have choices when choosing a man but now that she has got older she has less selection of eligible men. Either its men she doesn't want or is a bit too keen. She she kind of regrets not having stayed in a relationship with the ex when she ended it at 28.

She is concerned she be single for ever but she isn't fazed and seems to be happy to be single and enjoy her independence with girls similar to her. If kids came into the equation wouldn't matter to her. Women don't need to be married to have kids and don't need to be married either to be in a committed stable relationship!

Would you agree on that concept?

johnr1

doovdela wrote: »

There is an article in the Independent Weekender based on women at 40, should stay single forever or marry someone good enough for them. The author in the article in question was with an eligible guy that she could have married but she didn't.

She ended the stable relationship as she felt she wasn't ready to settle down that was her at 28. Now 39 she doesn't know where her path leads. She always thought she marry but took it for granted she marry when older as she was a young girl. But when she hit 30 she didn't feel the need to. Not short of boyfriends growing up. She wanted to be an independent girl go travelling and build up her career and so on despite her friends being engaged, settling down or married.

Her mother instilled one thing in her mind was that she can have choices when choosing a man but now that she has got older she has less selection of eligible men. Either its men she doesn't want or is a bit too keen. She she kind of regrets not having stayed in a relationship with the ex when she ended it at 28.

She is concerned she be single for ever but she isn't fazed and seems to be happy to be single and enjoy her independence with girls similar to her. If kids came into the equation wouldn't matter to her. Women don't need to be married to have kids and don't need to be married either to be in a committed stable relationship!

Would you agree on that concept?

Ahem.... That's a reprint of the article the thread is based on pet.

starlit

Oops, had a feeling I read it before!? Ok just summarised what was in it then. Didn't realise the two came from both the guardian and the independent.

Have the same opinions on it anyway...

the_syco

It mainly concentrates on 1st world countries, it seems. It brings up some interesting thoughts on the relationships depending on the male-female ratio, such as if there are less women, the man restricts womens rights and divorce levels are low, but if there are more women than men, it seems men are more likely to be players. She doesn't seem to have a "chip on her shoulder", so it's easy to read.

And by "1st world countries" I mean that in poorer countries that lack females (high male to female ratio), females get kidnapped to be married in other towns, or sometimes when they marry, she also by default marries the husbands brothers.

AstridBean

She seems pretty fussy, "no-one who's not a white, professional, high-earning male need apply" type thing.

Teyla Emmagan

AstridBean wrote: »

She seems pretty fussy, "no-one who's not a white, professional, high-earning male need apply" type thing.

The older you get the fussier you get in my experience. I think it's a realisation of what you couldn't possibly be dealing with, unless you're willing to give up the ghost and 'settle'.

I know a load of people who got into relationships and had kids with people very young, people who they would by no means have chosen to be with at this stage in their lives (due to the total lack of anything in common etc - it's funny in retrospect). I think we're all more 'go with the flow' when we're younger and then less likely to compromise as we get age - especially when there's some level of independence involved - being used to having your own money and making your own decisions etc.

AstridBean

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

The older you get the fussier you get in my experience. I think it's a realisation of what you couldn't possibly be dealing with, unless you're willing to give up the ghost and 'settle'.

I know a load of people who got into relationships and had kids with people very young, people who they would by no means have chosen to be with at this stage in their lives (due to the total lack of anything in common etc - it's funny in retrospect). I think we're all more 'go with the flow' when we're younger and then less likely to compromise as we get age - especially when there's some level of independence involved - being used to having your own money and making your own decisions etc.

It's kinda paradoxical that women get more fussy as they get older just when their options start to dwindle. :-/

um7y1h83ge06nx

Excellent thread so I feel the need to add my 2 cents as a male in his late twenties.

I think marriage is a big deal these days too for men, not just women.

I'm currently living with a divorced guy and honestly his story seriously takes the gloss off marriage for me. I don't know is it because I'm male or I have a technical background that makes me analyse things but marriage is a huge risk these days for men. It's fine if things work out but if things sour and divorce is on the cards the legal system can be very unforgiving and harsh for a man, particularly if kids are involved.

That said, the romantic (or lunatic?) in me still makes me interested in getting married. My GF surprised me during the weekend by saying that if I proposed she would accept. I'm surprised as I would expect a "no right now but maybe in a year or two" response as we're not even seeing each other for a year and a half.

Teyla Emmagan

AstridBean wrote: »

It's kinda paradoxical that women get more fussy as they get older just when their options start to dwindle. :-/

Oh I know. And if I had figured out what an old groutch I was going to be at this stage of my life I would have had 3 kids by 25 and be divorced by now

opinion guy

Siuin wrote: »

If I was Kate Bolick, I'd get married just so I could have a decent surname

She should marry a guy also called Bolick.
That way they would be the Bolicks:D

Siuin

opinion guy wrote: »

She should marry a guy also called Bolick.
That way they would be the Bolicks:D

Lol! Preferably with this first name...!
http://www.babynology.com/meaning-wadda-m11.html

AstridBean

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Oh I know. And if I had figured out what an old groutch I was going to be at this stage of my life I would have had 3 kids by 25 and be divorced by now

Hope my last post didn't seem anti-woman. After all, I AM a woman!

WaltKowalski

I think marriage is only a declining option for women who don't have the option to get married.

Marriage is definitely not going out of fashion.
I don't know one woman who doesn't want to get married.

jam_mac_jam

WaltKowalski wrote: »

I think marriage is only a declining option for women who don't have the option to get married.

Marriage is definitely not going out of fashion.
I don't know one woman who doesn't want to get married.

Of course there is women who dont want to get married. People dont all think the same way because of their sex. I know people whose main focus is being happy with their partner if he is out there rather than marrying them. For some people it doesnt matter, they are not as in to it as others.

WaltKowalski

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Of course there is women who dont want to get married. People dont all think the same way because of their sex. I know people whose main focus is being happy with their partner if he is out there rather than marrying them. For some people it doesnt matter, they are not as in to it as others.

Of course there are. I just don't know any of them.

Dudess

AstridBean wrote: »

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

The older you get the fussier you get in my experience. I think it's a realisation of what you couldn't possibly be dealing with, unless you're willing to give up the ghost and 'settle'.

I know a load of people who got into relationships and had kids with people very young, people who they would by no means have chosen to be with at this stage in their lives (due to the total lack of anything in common etc - it's funny in retrospect). I think we're all more 'go with the flow' when we're younger and then less likely to compromise as we get age - especially when there's some level of independence involved - being used to having your own money and making your own decisions etc.

It's kinda paradoxical that women get more fussy as they get older just when their options start to dwindle. :-/

Yet I read quite a bit about women being deafened by the biological clock and so desperate that they'll "settle".

AstridBean

Dudess wrote: »

Yet I read quite a bit about women being deafened by the biological clock and so desperate that they'll "settle".

Well, that kinda fits. They are more fussy but the reality doesn't match, so they "settle" for the fella who falls way short of their high expectations. Or something.

eviltwin

What I have noticed is that a lot of couples...both men and women...are very blase about marriage until they want kids. Then they have to start thinking about the ring on the finger. As liberal as we like to think we are there are still a lot of people my age (30's) who think a child outside marriage is still "wrong"

I suppose I came to things "backwards"...I had my family and then got married. I was with my husband 12 years before we made it official. We never had any pressure from anyone to tie the knot whereas in contrast our siblings and friends were always being asked about it.

I think the kids thing really makes the difference.