Take to The Streets?

wonderfulname

gbee wrote: »

Spoken by someone who, in this post, demonstrates to everyone else, how little is known by the poster of the system the post is referring to.

In short we never had a democracy and we never had a low tax economy and we never had a celtic tiger.

Would you care to tell me how I'm wrong instead of just claiming as such with nothing to back you up?

Einhard

Chuck Stone wrote: »

We weren't asked if we wanted the banks bailed out.

How many people do you think would have voted yes to a bank bailout if it had went to a referendum?

If I remember correctly, SF, the ULA, and numerous smaller parties/independents ran on a platform last Spring to repudiate the bank bailout, and renege on the subsequent commitments. So yeah, we did get a democratic choice. How can people so easily ignore reality when it doesn't suit their purposes?

coonecb1 wrote: »

Maybe you should be asking WHY there's f*ck all money.

The answer is that our Government threw our economic sovereignty under the bus in order to rescue private sector bank bondholders.

The debts incurred from that have bankrupted the country, and the Government are now coming to the most vulnerable in our society, and sticking them with the tab.

You don't get a sense of injustice in that?

Actually, the fact that we have spent approx €20 billion a year more than we raised in taxes over the past few years has contributed significantly to our financial woes. Indeed, the cost of the bank guarantee is quite a deal less than the cost of our fiscal profligacy.

coonecb1

wonderfulname wrote: »

You could probably do with looking up the definition of bankruptWe had to do something at the time or our economy would be in a lot worse a state than it is now, I agree that a blanket bail out was not the best thing to do, but unless you have a time machine there is sweet shag all we can do about it now.You honestly believe we'd still be living the high life had we not bailed out the banks? Do you perchance remember why we bailed out the banks?

1. What is Ireland if it's not bankrupt? What exactly is bankrupt country in your view?

2. I'm not saying we shouldn't have bailed out the banks. What I'm saying is that the cause of the crisis wasn't fiscal deficits, it was the banking bailout. You said the mess was caused by low taxes / high social spending. That's just incorrect.

3. NAMA and the bailout of bank bondholders (including 10-20 billion worth of subordinate bondholders) is the biggest transfer of wealth from taxpayers to the private sector in the history of the country. The whole world finds it remarkable how unjust this is. You don't seem to see anything wrong with it at all. Business as usual.

It boggles the mind how someone can be so accepting of what's gone on, and not see anything wrong with it

coonecb1

Einhard wrote: »

Actually, the fact that we have spent approx €20 billion a year more than we raised in taxes over the past few years has contributed significantly to our financial woes. Indeed, the cost of the bank guarantee is quite a deal less than the cost of our fiscal profligacy.

What was the reason for the extra spending over the last few years? It was because of the banking mess! Not exactly run of the mill fiscal irresponsibility. We are not Greece.

starbelgrade

Has anyone who has ever started a thread stating how "lazy" we Irish are at protesting ever done anything else beyond complaining about how lazy everyone else is?

Einhard

coonecb1 wrote: »

What was the reason for the extra spending over the last few years? It was because of the banking mess! Not exactly run of the mill fiscal irresponsibility. We are not Greece.

Yes it was because of run of the mill fiscal irresponsibility. If one discounts entirely the cost of the bank bailouts, we would still have spent tens of billions more over the past few years than we brought in. FF ran us into the ground fiscally. We're not Greece alright, but that's like saying that someone isn't crazy because they're not as crazy as the craziest person in the asylum!

Fromthetrees

http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

You'll notice 'our' debt is the highest in the world because we're bailing out banks in other countries who are by multiples bigger than us, it's more than unfair, it's ****ing repugnant. :mad:

wonderfulname

coonecb1 wrote: »

1. What is Ireland if it's not bankrupt? What exactly is bankrupt country in your view?

It's not "in my opinion", bankruptcy is an accepted term with an accepted definition, we are still paying our bills therefore we are not bankrupt, you sound like someone who likes to throw about the term "default", to default is to declare bankruptcy.

coonecb1 wrote: »

2. I'm not saying we shouldn't have bailed out the banks. What I'm saying is that the cause of the crisis wasn't fiscal deficits, it was the banking bailout. You said the mess was caused by low taxes / high social spending. That's just incorrect.

Our current situation is due to gross mismanagement of finances by individuals, this state, and others, the bailout would not have come about had it not been for these, and it is not the cause of all our woes.

coonecb1 wrote: »

3. NAMA and the bailout of bank bondholders (including 10-20 billion worth of subordinate bondholders) is the biggest transfer of wealth from taxpayers to the private sector in the history of the country. The whole world finds it remarkable how unjust this is.

This country is tiny and young, the banking sector was large and laxly regulated, as grand as your statement sounds it doesn't actually say much. Show me where the rest of the world is shaking their fists at how unjustly we are being treated.

Stinicker

What good will protesting the government doing, they are the fallboy patsys for the mess Fianna Fail left to them, I don't blame the current FG/LAB government for the way the country is and if Fianna Fail were still in power we'd probably be on our 3rd bailout by now.

If people want to protest then fine but make sure it is against the Fianna Fail scumbags you are doing the protesting because they sank the country and people who are giving out about the country now, what the hell did they think? that Enda Kenny had a spare €200billion from his communion money in the credit union to fix the mess? Fianna Fail created this mess and now they have the cheek to blame this government for it. If it wasn't so important to boot them out I'd almost have rather they stayed sellotape their eyelids open and force them to watch this mess and have to take the unpopular decisions that people don't like.

Back in the late seventies and 80's Fianna Fail effectively broke Ireland also, FG came in to clean up the mess and make the unpopular decisions, their thanks? election defeat and like a battered wife the dumb electorate ran back to the crooks in Fianna Fail again after the seeds of recovery planted by FG were starting to sprout.

So if there is a protest, remember who caused this mess committed treason and broke the country.

coonecb1

Einhard wrote: »

Yes it was because of run of the mill fiscal irresponsibility. If one discounts entirely the cost of the bank bailouts, we would still have spent tens of billions more over the past few years than we brought in. FF ran us into the ground fiscally. We're not Greece alright, but that's like saying that someone isn't crazy because they're not as crazy as the craziest person in the asylum!

Sorry, but our national debt didn't really change much in the 10 years to 2007. In fact, we were routinely running budget surpluses up until the banking crisis.

So, your assertions are incorrect.

gbee

wonderfulname wrote: »

Would you care to tell me how I'm wrong instead of just claiming as such with nothing to back you up?

You're young, God Bless you [figure of speech as I'm an atheist]

The young are innocent ~ this is my fourth recession and first depression.

You also need to understand how local government and the permanent civil service and city manager works.

I am not going to spoil your fun in this exploration.

wonderfulname

coonecb1 wrote: »

Sorry, but our national debt didn't really change much in the 10 years to 2007. In fact, we were routinely running budget surpluses up until the banking crisis.

So, your assertions are incorrect.

Hmm... 2007... now what was happening in 2007 remind me, did we just transfer money to the banks for the craic? Because that's what you're implying, your assertion would only be plausible could the figures not be studied in closer detail and had nothing else economic happened at all, in the entire world in the timespan you are referring to.

gbee wrote: »

You're young, God Bless you [figure of speech as I'm an atheist]

The young are innocent ~ this is my fourth recession and first depression.

You also need to understand how local government and the permanent civil service and city manager works.

I am not going to spoil your fun in this exploration.

I understand completely how these work, both how they currently operate and how they would work if people actually got involved in the political process. You shouldn't talk down to me because I'm young, lord knows [figure of speech as I'm an atheist] you auld folks have no authority when it comes to political matters, you could have had it different, the system allows for that.

Jesus Wept

Considering popping into the lads on Dame Street for a bit of craic and camaraderie.
Might bring some minirolls, 99%'ers love minirolls.

Einhard

coonecb1 wrote: »

Sorry, but our national debt didn't really change much in the 10 years to 2007. In fact, we were routinely running budget surpluses up until the banking crisis.

Yes but it was unsustainable. We will spend €20 billion more than we can afford this year on services and salaries around the country. The simple fact is that, even if we hadn't bailed out the banks, we would still be running massive budget deficits. That is reality.

gbee

wonderfulname wrote: »

you could have had it different, the system allows for that.

It does take a time to understand, I was young when I voted for the system we are now suffering under.

The last two elections, I voted SF. I know now, by the time they [SF] get there, they'll be as bad as Labour and just worried about their own pensions.

The fact remain we don't actually need a government at all.

We'd have been far better off than having a dying minister being spoken to in the middle of the night "you must save your banks"

If it was left to the civil service there would have been a motion scheduled for inclusion in the next available meeting and the 'storm' would have passed totally un-noticed by Joe Public.

And, I was not talking down to you, not deliberately, but that's probably the generation gap.

I believe we should be born old and grow young. Anyway, nice chatting.

coonecb1

Einhard wrote: »

Yes but it was unsustainable. We will spend €20 billion more than we can afford this year on services and salaries around the country. The simple fact is that, even if we hadn't bailed out the banks, we would still be running massive budget deficits. That is reality.

I'm not trying to defend our fiscal policy. I'm saying that the bank bail out is the single reason why we've needed to get bailed out as a country.

Without the banking crisis, we would not need to get bailed out. There's no way our fiscal policy was driving us to the IMF/ECB.

Now, as a result of the banking bail-out, the government is forcing austerity on taxpayers, but is not even hinting at negotiating with bondholders, who actually took a gamble with their money in a capitalist system.

The whole farce can be summed up in the phrase "Privatisation of profits, Socialisation of losses".

THAT is the injustice that I'm against. It's not capitalism, it's not socialism or communism. It's the protection of the elites by the elites. The little guy gets the tab.

Ally Dick

round tower huntsman wrote: »

the man that over saw this whole mess, pat neary,walked from the central bank with a lump sum and yearly pension worth hundreds of thousands. harney and traitors like ahern and biffo earning a fortune on pensions, its sickening tbh:mad:

I'd wager that Bertie was on the phone to Neary telling him to back off, every time he opened his mouth. Still, he should have had the balls to say something if he thought something was wrong. I blame Bertie, Biffo, Neary, Hurley and the banks in that order.