The Ultimate Survival Knife [Read Mod post #175]

krissovo

My post which is no 6 in the thread

Primary = Reliable - Must be strong and take punishment
Hold an edge - Must be able to hold an edge for example to complete butchering a animal or chop branches without continuous sharpening
Multi purpose - Without losing any of the primary goals
Drop point style blade

Basic Knife Tasks:

Shelter
Large knife - chopping 2" - 4" branches, stripping branches, hammer nails/pins (secondary task)
Small knife - cutting cord/rope/vines

Fire
Large Knife - chopping logs up to ~20", splitting, kindling
Small Knife - kindling

Food
Large knife - Skinning, Butchery, chopping veg, trap preparation/carving
Small knife - Skinning, filleting, preparing veg, intricate carving

Additional tasks:
Wire cutting
Breaking glass - Toughened
Digging
Carving

Hibrion

krissovo wrote: »

My post which is no 6 in the thread

Make it simpler for now. No big knife, little knife stuff. Just copy my list and add to it and we can edit at the end and see what is actually feasible in a knife

Grizzly 45

1. Cutting various materials
2. Preparing meat/ fish/ plants
3. basic carving of tools
4. feathering wood
5. striking a firesteel
6. :rolleyes:
7. Emergency rescue tool capability.IE tough enough to chop thru car door or steel of simmilar strength.Be able to withstand extreme prying,splitting and such abuse.
8. Easily sharpned steel type with unconventional methods if need be.IE a rasp and chainsaw file.

See it as both urban/rural tool .

davymoore

Zombie Defence ?
Chopping through car doors ?

WTF ?? ........... This is getting ridiculous

Hibrion

davymoore wrote: »

Zombie Defence ?
Chopping through car doors ?

WTF ?? ........... This is getting ridiculous

I wasn't going to point that out quite yet, but yes.. I agree. This is exactly what I was talking about. It's supposed to be a knife, not the jaws of life and a chainsaw.

The more I think of it, the happier I'd be with a 3mm woodlore clone or an enzo trapper in 01. Ticks pretty much all the boxes for a knife that can be used and if push comes to shove, abused.

Grizzly 45

Davy,
Without trying to sound abusive .
I'd suggest you go and research a few survival knives that are on sale in the US and ONE of the tests is actually cut through a 50 gallon drum and remove a 12inX12 piece of from it.I would consider this a pretty standard test for any knife you would consider risking your ass on!!! I mean if Cold Steel,Buck knives,RAT knives and TOPS can do it and they mass produce their stuff,surely a custom blade should be able to do this and more???:rolleyes:

This is going to be a working tool that will take alot of abuse,not a nice custom collectors piece costing hundreds that will be on display in the knife drawer.

I would expect this knife to be able to take the oil drum test/car door no problem.
I'd expect it also to be able to pry open a wooden crate,chop wood,while being battened with another piece of wood or steel,
I'd expect it to be hammered into a tree and that I can stand all of my 240 lbs on this without fear.
Chuck it in salt water for a week and wash it down and see if the finish is still in order and if it still holds a edge.
Re sharpen and then go and gut a deer or cut up some bacon into strips.
[One of the best realistic sharpness tests for a usable edge I think.]

BTW this is a standard test any knife goes thru with people like the US Marine Corps,Navy SEALS and German KSK .
So if ours wont or cant stand up to a test of somthing like that...Well we arent in the running.
Dont get me wrong..I like custom knives,and they have their places,but this is a totally different bucket of Cod.As I see it..

This is a hunk of steel ,or two, with or maybe not a fancy grip material,and a very good good type impervious finishes and a fancy sheath.One big bruiser and one smaller for more fancier work.

I cant see anyway of making this anyway more original.Its like gun mechanisms.There isnt much new out there ,just variations on a theme.Making a one piece do all knife is an impossibility as it will compromise on everything and excel at nothing.
Combination knives,or things with hollow handles are compromising right from the word go in strength by having to be hollow.Only one I'll except to the rules are CS Bushman and Chris Reeves hollow handle knives.But Reeves are ridicilous money due to the work and machine hours involved in turning a piece of roundstock into a knife.



<mod snip>

What are your ideas on this knive???You are the guy going to build this,so what in your opinion should a survival knife have???

Hibrion

Grizz, I can see what you mean to point, but they test those production knives to destruction at times to see what they can do in unreal situations. These knives aren;t designed for that and I doubt anyone with one knife would risk destroying it by punching car doors and oil drums. Sometimes a bit of knowledge will allow you to come to an alternative.
I'm not one to argue too much about things, but tests like those done by Cold Steel are the laughing stock of the custom knife world. Any decent full tang blade made of a reasonable quality steel could be abused like in their infamous videos, but who would really use a knife for that?

Leaving a blade in salt water for a week and expecting it to work is pointless to me. If you want something like that you need to be looking at extremely high chromium content stainless steels that are difficult to sharp and far from ideal when it comes to edge retention. If Davy has ever built a dive knife, he will confirm this. Such steels are so poor for edge retention that many divers prefer to use 'disposable' knives that have a higher carbon content and replace them as they see fit.

However, I think we are in agreement that it is difficult to come up with anything original. Maybe a variation on a theme is the best we can do. The thread is still young and we don't know f anything will comes of it yet.

I understand the emoticon at the end of the zombie thing now, BTW

Grizzly 45

Hibrion wrote: »

Grizz, I can see what you mean to point, but they test those production knives to destruction at times to see what they can do in unreal situations. These knives aren;t designed for that and I doubt anyone with one knife would risk destroying it by punching car doors and oil drums. Sometimes a bit of knowledge will allow you to come to an alternative.

TBH Hib,.
I think if it was a choice between rescuing somone stuck in a car,or having nothing else to cut open some sheet steel for whatever reason..Maybe to get into a boarded up house for shelter,would you be too worried about your knife???I wouldnt.Its a tool,in a survival situation,it has to be able to pry and grub and do non knife jobs as well.If we are going to be worried about finishes and edge holding and what not..Well then...

I'm not one to argue too much about things, but tests like those done by Cold Steel are the laughing stock of the custom knife world.

And you said alot there in the word "custom".That implies to me expensive and what the client wants designed to their specific need.
If custom knives claim to be so tough,why wont they challange Lynn Thompson with their blades costing thousands and his cost hundreds to the same stress tests??Have they got somthing to fear??I'd have thought as a custom knife maker or custom whatever I'd be only too happy to take on a challange like that and prove the guy wrong,and make myself a name.No one has..Strange that....:rolleyes:

Any decent full tang blade made of a reasonable quality steel could be abused like in their infamous videos, but who would really use a knife for that?

Its not that you are going to do this on a daily basis,but to know you have the capability of doing so if need be.;)

Leaving a blade in salt water for a week and expecting it to work is pointless to me. If you want something like that you need to be looking at extremely high chromium content stainless steels that are difficult to sharp and far from ideal when it comes to edge retention. If Davy has ever built a dive knife, he will confirm this. Such steels are so poor for edge retention that many divers prefer to use 'disposable' knives that have a higher carbon content and replace them as they see fit.

Hmm,I dunno on that Hib.I scuba dive and have an old sportsways knife from the 1970s that has lived virtually for weeks in salt water in boats ,etc and has one of the best edges around.
Some kind of stainless,but non high chromium content.Again edge is relative to diving knives are tools not a shaving razor.Havent seen a decent edged throaway dive knife yet.

However, I think we are in agreement that it is difficult to come up with anything original. Maybe a variation on a theme is the best we can do. The thread is still young and we don't know f anything will comes of it yet

.

Think thats what will happen..

I

understand the emoticon at the end of the zombie thing now, BTW

Ok,but you missed on sharpening a knife with a chainsaw FILE!
Not implying that a knife should be like one.Unless you have a CS Kukhri that is...:P

Hibrion

I'm certainly not going to test a 400 quid custom knife to destruction, however, one of mine is made of damasteel and I know for a fact it will stand up to more than most other steels.

If someone was stuck in a car, I'd break the window. If the car is so mangled breaking a window won't get them out, and all you have is a knife and no emergency services on hand, they're probably fecked anyway. I'd use the knife if needs be an it coud do it, but how long would it take to cut a car door, and any knife will be in serious need of re-profiling after such a task, if it survived.

Your dive knife may be good for diving, but I wouldn't be happy with the best dive knife as an all round user.

I'm not familiar with chainsaw files, I don't like chainsaws, but you can sharpen a knife to a useable edge with many things and I'm sure a chainsaw file would be one of them.

alanmcqueen

Some great food for thought in this thread. On seeking the ultimate survival knife I think the Tom Brown Tracker is a good case study. It's a real love/hate knife and it actually has a manual with it which provides great insight into its design.

http://www.trackertrail.com/trackerknife/TrackerKnifeManual.pdf

Anyone have one?

Hibrion

Look like a bit of a hate to me. But I can see how some people would like it.

I notice in the manual that the knife is tied to a stick as a make shift spear. This has been mentioned before, but the only thing I can see this being used for is hunting or defense from wild animals. In such a scenario a sharpened stick with a fire hardened point will be every bit as good as still leave you with your knife as a backup.

For fishing, a simple trident can also be fashioned and fir hardened.

If you could do this, would people be bothered with using the knife as a spear??

bonniebede

Hibrion wrote: »

Most of us, if not all, will have used or still use a Mora Clipper for something. They are an excellent all round knife and you won't be disappointed. They are actually reasonable priced from Ray Mear's website too.
Pick up a laplander folding saw or a good axe, a firesteel, and a DC4 stone and you will be sorted for basic tools.

Amazon have Bacho Laplander saws for 12 pounds sterling at the moment. A great deal considering they usually cost 2-3 more..

Thanks for the info. I'm taking notes. Sure is a right friendly bunch here. Much appreciated.

alanmcqueen

Hibrion wrote: »

Look like a bit of a hate to me. But I can see how some people would like it.

I notice in the manual that the knife is tied to a stick as a make shift spear. This has been mentioned before, but the only thing I can see this being used for is hunting or defense from wild animals. In such a scenario a sharpened stick with a fire hardened point will be every bit as good as still leave you with your knife as a backup.

For fishing, a simple trident can also be fashioned and fir hardened.

If you could do this, would people be bothered with using the knife as a spear??

I agree with you on the throwing your good knife away on spear front. The tracker weighs nearly 2lbs so I'd love to see someone try throw that on a spear. LOL

The manual is more 'aspirational' IMO but I do like the thought process especially into the saw blade and double edges. I think the same thought would be needed here as lots of ideas, some really great, but the designer needs to select a road and travel it. He will lose some people on the way who will 'hate' where he's going - just like the Tracker knife programme - but on the other hand he will have very loyal followers.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Hibrion;75990523]I'm certainly not going to test a 400 quid custom knife to destruction, however, one of mine is made of damasteel and I know for a fact it will stand up to more than most other steels.

Who said to destruction??All I'm saying is ..IF you buy custom work at custom prices with an expection that it will do a certain task and the maker says it will.he has either tested an example himself or he has sold you somthing fraudently under pretence.IF I or anyone else pays stupid money,and I'm talking 600 plus for a knife that they want to do a certain task for It had better do it on the test bed,no point in finding out that it cant in a life or death situation.

If someone was stuck in a car, I'd break the window. If the car is so mangled breaking a window won't get them out, and all you have is a knife and no emergency services on hand, they're probably fecked anyway. I'd use the knife if needs be an it coud do it, but how long would it take to cut a car door, and any knife will be in serious need of re-profiling after such a task, if it survived.

Fine we can argue this back and forward.All I'm saying is it is a revelant test that seems to be accepted..Apart from custom knife makers that is.:rolleyes:.If it is good enough for the USMC ,SEALS etc thats good enough for me!.
I'd rather have a commercial made knife that can do it if need be and costs 200 dollars than a custom special for 2000 dollars,and I have to worry about its grips,finish and whatever,and wether it can actually do the job or not.Because some guy built it and says it does what I want as he has my cheque in his pocket.Did he test it himself personally in the situations I might be in??

Your dive knife may be good for diving, but I wouldn't be happy with the best dive knife as an all round user.

Neither am I,but then I dont expect it do be a wonder do it all knife either.
I expect it to be a prybar digger,and poker with a sharp edge that is impervious to salt water

I'm not familiar with chainsaw files, I don't like chainsaws, but you can sharpen a knife to a useable edge with many things and I'm sure a chainsaw file would be one of them.

It certainly can sharpen certain knive steels.Not brilliantly ,but better than a blunt edge.

Hibrion

I think a custom maker can't charge 600 quid or more unless he has the reputation to back it up. I havn't spent that much on a knife yet, but if I was looking at say a 12 inch forged bowie in feather damascus, I would be paying double that. Part of this would be for the materials being so costly, but I wouldn't buy from a maker in whom I wasn't confident.

The thing about US military stuff is, it's never the best quality, it's easily replaced, and they are never working alone. I wouldn't trust my life to US military stuff TBH. Plenty of lads switch standard gear for better quality out of their own pocket. Even the military themselves don't supply all their troops with standard items.
The beretta M9 is a good example: although it's standard issue for the US army, many units are issued with other pistols which include sigs and baby eagles. This usually because they want something in a 40 cal, but that's not the type of stuff you usually hear.

Grizzly 45

alanmcqueen wrote: »

I agree with you on the throwing your good knife away on spear front. The tracker weighs nearly 2lbs so I'd love to see someone try throw that on a spear. LOL

The manual is more 'aspirational' IMO but I do like the thought process especially into the saw blade and double edges. I think the same thought would be needed here as lots of ideas, some really great, but the designer needs to select a road and travel it. He will lose some people on the way who will 'hate' where he's going - just like the Tracker knife programme - but on the other hand he will have very loyal followers.

I'm just amazed Tom Brown allowed his name to be put on that thing in the first place.:o
But maybe he figured he could cash in on the hype it generated in the film The Hunted.
Same way Gil Hibben and Jimmy Lile did with the First blood and Rambo movies,which gave us copies of the knives and people who bought them[me included,but I was young and stupid then!;)]with knives that are nice movie props ,but bloody useless in the real world for anything.

Hibrion

I thought that knife looked familiar. I remember seeing it in that film now and thinking it was a bit fussy.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Hibrion;75991192]I think a custom maker can't charge 600 quid or more unless he has the reputation to back it up. I havn't spent that much on a knife yet, but if I was looking at say a 12 inch forged bowie in feather damascus, I would be paying double that. Part of this would be for the materials being so costly, but I wouldn't buy from a maker with whom I wasn't confident.

Exactly,he has to have a reputation and foremost knowledge of what you are looking for in the knife!Sure you can pay 1200 dollars plus for a blade,but thats ridicilous for a survival knife ,custom or not.

The thing about US military stuff is, it's never the best quality, it's easily replaced, and they are never working alone.

What army has best quality kit??Murphys last rule of combat[your rifle has been made by the lowest bidder]:rolleyes:
Easily replaced indeed,but we wont have that option,so it is going to have to be able to withstand extreme situations.Sure we might all wish for brilliant knives,but it might be we end up with a POS Chinese kitchen knife..That will be your best survival knive...

I wouldn't trust my life to US military stuff TBH. Plenty of lads switch standard gear for better quality out of their own pocket. Even the military themselves don't supply all their troops with standard items.

Yes you do have personal choice in certain kit,BUT it has to conform or exceed the MILSPEC requirements laid down by the dept of defence or the service branch.And it has to come from a defence contractor.Dunno of many custom knife makers that have DOD supply contracts..

The beretta M9 is a good example: although it's standard issue for the US army, many units are issued with other pistols which including sigs and baby eagles. This usually because they want something in a 40 cal, but that's not the type of stuff you usually hear.

[/QUOTE]

Err unless you happen to be in some sort of elite unit,SEALS,DELTA, etc you are stuck with the M9!! If you are lucky enough to have one that is.
Pistols were along with shotguns being unit swopped almost on a hourly basis in 'Dad with incoming and outgoing patrols for house clearing operations at one stage.
Nothing new,even my father when was in the US navy in ww2,even said 1911 pistols were the most stolen things off officers on troop ships the night before Iwo Jima landings.:eek:

Its only the elite units that get to choose their own firepower and thats not a given either.Dont even think of getting your personal sent out from home either.It is apprently a major clusterf..k to try this !!

Grizzly 45

Hibrion wrote: »

I thought that knife looked familiar. I remember seeing it in that film now and thinking it was a bit fussy.

It is Tom Brown did the advisor on the tracking and survival stuff in the film.If you get it on DVD there is about 20 mins of extras about this survivalism ,overkill knife fighting and wholly unrealistic knife making scenes in the film.

Hibrion

Grizz, believe it or not these non-standard pistols are far more common than you might think. I have met many non-special forces who were issued with these on a mission to mission basis. It's usually the unit commander who makes the choice for you, but many choose not to have their troops reliant on a 9mm. But this is only an example anyway.

1200 quid would not be for a survival knife, it was an example of a top end bowie. I wouldn't mind paying a fe hundred for a bushcraft/survival blade though.

Doc Ruby

bonniebede wrote: »

Seriously though, i have been thinking about caches for the bug in place, but not sure about construction. ideas?

I think the construction probably matters less than what you're actually storing, pemmican and honey are good examples, although if I had to venture an opinion heat sealed and shrink wrapped mylar pumped with inert gasses and iron filings stuffed in a drum packed with dry sand covered in tar and buried somewhere elevated would do it, but thats probably a topic for another thread.

I'm with both Grizz and Hib on this, milspec is generally not all its cracked up to be and the blade must be tough, tough, tough. It may be used for an indeterminate amount of time under ferocious conditions and its no good saying it could never happen because we're going for the ultimate, the best.

It needs at minimum to be able to deal with the weight of a grown man plus heavy kit for sustained periods, so 200 kilos, it needs to be maintainable and hold a good edge. Maybe that can't be done with materials science today but thats what I'd call ultimate.

I don't think there's much dispute about the handle and pommel, so really its the blade material and configuration we need to figure out.

Grizzly 45

Blade material..Now ths is where custom work will come in.Anyone up on metalurgy??Blade shape...Geesh!! We havent decided yet what this thing will do in our survival situation.:)I get the feeling folks are going towards a bushcraft type knife in size or use?

Deise Musashi

Blade material..Now ths is where custom work will come in.Anyone up on metalurgy?

There are some really cool things happening in steel atm. Carpenter steels have brought out a bunch of their own versions of Crucible Particle Metals.

You have stuff like Busse's INFI (possibly a modified A8?), there is SR101 (used for rock breaker bits) used by Swamprat, things like Farid and his CPM Rex 121, Phil Wilson using M4, S90V and S110V, CPM 154 and CPM 125V. These steels need specialised kit to heat treat and even to grind them, salt pots and liquid nitrogen are dangerous!

A good high carbon tool steel well heat treated and tempered will give a lot of desirable properties with a much easier heat treat. The gains from using super steels may be mainly in the bragging rights, although things like Farid chopping steel cans or Spyderco's no rust H1 steels are very cool!

Tabnabs

Folks, please don't think it's ok to circumvent the forum charter or the boards.ie charter by substituting zombie for human. It's not fooling anyone. An infraction has been given for the persistent abuse of charter and more will be given if it continues.

Hibrion

Hi guys,

I'm gona be honest. This idea isn't really taking off the way I had imagined. There are two few people involved in the design and too many different scenarios that people would like to cover. I'l be blunt and say: 'I'm out'.

If someone else wants to take over the build they are more than welcome to, but it's proving more hassle than it's worth for me. Not a bad experiment though

Tigger

personally i thought it was finished with clip point supertang heavy pommel mica handled army knife/.kbar

Doc Ruby

Just came across this blog post here detailing what one guy would look for in a survival knife. It pretty much echoes a lot of what's been said in the thread, so we're on the right track anyway. He's the real deal too, check out the fishing net he made from spider webs(!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUb-bkja9gE

So is this idea dead in the water or what?

Grizzly 45

He did well to point five!!:( WHY does everyone insist in turning their only vitally important knife into a spear??? What happens that if you do get a stab into t[he animal I assume,]it scarpers with your knife spear stuck in it??Or you miss and ram said spear into a rock and break the blade??
Better off just making a wooden spear tip and hardening it over a fire,or improvising one out of materials to hand.

bonniebede

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

He did well to point five!!:( WHY does everyone insist in turning their only vitally important knife into a spear??? What happens that if you do get a stab into t[he animal I assume,]it scarpers with your knife spear stuck in it??Or you miss and ram said spear into a rock and break the blade??
Better off just making a wooden spear tip and hardening it over a fire,or improvising one out of materials to hand.

just what i was thinking myself!

davymoore

I thought this thread had died but in fairness I think it still deserves a shot

So taking the guys advice (him in the video) and starting with those 6 basic rules (Ignoring the spear) can a simple, effective, original prototype be designed by the users here?

If so ....... my offer to build it and pass it around still stands.