In Car Video...close one.

dharn

Gophur wrote: »

That, in fairness, hurts my eyes!

Can you re-format it/punctuate it properly?

ya having read it you would need a good breath to read it all in one go but i think you can get what i am talking about if you read it slowly and take a deep breath befor you start !!

Veloce

Good reaction by the passat driver. The overtaking lane was moving slowly so he moved over to the undertaking lane.

Nissan doctor

Veloce wrote: »

Good reaction by the passat driver. The overtaking lane was moving slowly so he moved over to the undertaking lane.

You say that like it was a perfectly normal lane change he did..

dharn

have to disagree bad driving by the passat driver way too fast for the conditions much faster than any of the other traffic either ahead of him or to the left of him very lucky to have a gap to drive into

Veloce

Nissan doctor wrote: »

You say that like it was a perfectly normal lane change he did..

It probably was a normal lane change for him ha

deandean

Veloce wrote: »

Good reaction by the passat driver. The overtaking lane was moving slowly so he moved over to the undertaking lane.

Yes indeed, an undertaker was nearly called for there.

liamh22

Typical Passat driver......

Yep, easily the worst on the roads

CiniO

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Your entitled to your opinion but I think you will only garner support from those that have a inflated sense of their own driving.

It's not about any inflated sense of one's own driving skills.

I know Ireland is a country where part of general knowledge is equation "skid=accident", but in reality skid is not so scary as people think.

F.E in Scandinavian countries, controlling skids is part of driver training, and then you have to be able to do it to pass your driving test for your licence.
Being able to control skids is part of good driving skills, and if everyone could do it properly, we could avoid thousands of accidents, and save many people's lives.

I've spent hundreds of hours (and spent thousands on fuel and tyres) when I was younger training that kind of stuff, and now I'm pretty confident that in emergency situation if my car skids most likely I will be able to control it. And I'm of an opinion, that everyone should know that stuff, and should be training it. (before obtaining licence, and obviously every so often later - maybe annual few hours training to refresh the knowledge and skills).

I really can't see a better way to make roads much safer, because the amount of times I heard (even here on this forum) someone saying "My car skidded so there was nothing I could do. I don't understand how it happened, as I was within speed limit". That kind of stuff confirms that drivers skills are way below what they should be.
Driving is not only about adhering to ROTR, but as well being in the control of the vehicle, and for it you need skills, which you have to learn and train.

Satanta

CiniO wrote: »

I've spent hundreds of hours (and spent thousands on fuel and tyres) when I was younger training that kind of stuff, and now I'm pretty confident that in emergency situation if my car skids most likely I will be able to control it. And I'm of an opinion, that everyone should know that stuff, and should be training it. (before obtaining licence, and obviously every so often later - maybe annual few hours training to refresh the knowledge and skills).

In fairness this is not typical driver training, and the point is valid that without driver aids that maneuver would likely end in a crash... with the typical driver. Your previous posts all read like every driver should be able to pull off braking on severely wet roads at speed while making a sharp turn without the aid of ESP and ABS etc. Personally I think you only need to be able to do that if you are driving like a twat not looking where you are going.

comanche_cor

Most drivers are not able to handle skids that's why we have ESP & ABS. Just have a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD8krFh8IL4

oh and the driver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiff_Needell) - though am sure he was playing up a bit for the cameras..

monkeybutter

CiniO wrote: »

It's not about any inflated sense of one's own driving skills.

I know Ireland is a country where part of general knowledge is equation "skid=accident", but in reality skid is not so scary as people think.

F.E in Scandinavian countries, controlling skids is part of driver training, and then you have to be able to do it to pass your driving test for your licence.
Being able to control skids is part of good driving skills, and if everyone could do it properly, we could avoid thousands of accidents, and save many people's lives.

I've spent hundreds of hours (and spent thousands on fuel and tyres) when I was younger training that kind of stuff, and now I'm pretty confident that in emergency situation if my car skids most likely I will be able to control it. And I'm of an opinion, that everyone should know that stuff, and should be training it. (before obtaining licence, and obviously every so often later - maybe annual few hours training to refresh the knowledge and skills).

I really can't see a better way to make roads much safer, because the amount of times I heard (even here on this forum) someone saying "My car skidded so there was nothing I could do. I don't understand how it happened, as I was within speed limit". That kind of stuff confirms that drivers skills are way below what they should be.
Driving is not only about adhering to ROTR, but as well being in the control of the vehicle, and for it you need skills, which you have to learn and train.

It's really interesting to hear that you are pretty sure you could control a skid.

The reality here the ESP stopped him from skidding, so what is your point. No matter how good a driver you think you are, you can't do what the ESP can do.

Thousands spent on skids and the ESP will stop you from having them, waste of money there.

It was the ESP that saved him there. it's safe to make that assumption.

Cuddlesworth

CiniO wrote: »

It's not about any inflated sense of one's own driving skills.

Yeah, it is.

CiniO wrote: »

I know Ireland is a country where part of general knowledge is equation "skid=accident", but in reality skid is not so scary as people think.

Skids when unexpected are always scary. You've lost control when you didn't want to. If your not scared of that your stupid.

CiniO wrote: »

F.E in Scandinavian countries, controlling skids is part of driver training, and then you have to be able to do it to pass your driving test for your licence.
Being able to control skids is part of good driving skills, and if everyone could do it properly, we could avoid thousands of accidents, and save many people's lives.

Were not in a Scandinavian country. We don't have skid pan training. Nor do we have the Winters that require that sort of training for the general populace.

CiniO wrote: »

I've spent hundreds of hours (and spent thousands on fuel and tyres) when I was younger training that kind of stuff, and now I'm pretty confident that in emergency situation if my car skids most likely I will be able to control it. And I'm of an opinion, that everyone should know that stuff, and should be training it. (before obtaining licence, and obviously every so often later - maybe annual few hours training to refresh the knowledge and skills).

Practising something in controlled circumstances does not make you the perfect driver in uncontrolled circumstances. It will decrease the risk, but not remove it. Practising not having to skid in the first place is a far better use of a drivers time.

CiniO wrote: »

I really can't see a better way to make roads much safer, because the amount of times I heard (even here on this forum) someone saying "My car skidded so there was nothing I could do. I don't understand how it happened, as I was within speed limit". That kind of stuff confirms that drivers skills are way below what they should be.

Nobody is going to disagree that the standard of driving here is below spec. But there are far better ways to get a better standard of driving, such as adding ESP and ABS to cars so that the drivers don't need to spend hundreds of hours practising skid training would be a good start.

Veloce

Skid pan training? ESP?...Perhaps not driving like that twat of a passat driver in the first place might be the first step

CiniO

monkeybutter wrote: »

It's really interesting to hear that you are pretty sure you could control a skid.

The reality here the ESP stopped him from skidding, so what is your point. No matter how good a driver you think you are, you can't do what the ESP can do.

True. Driver can't do what ESP is doing, as driver can't put braking force just to one wheel for example. But it doesn't mean driver can't do it other way, with the same effect which is keeping car on the road without crashing.

Thousands spent on skids and the ESP will stop you from having them, waste of money there.

It was the ESP that saved him there. it's safe to make that assumption.

It's not an assumption. It's a fact. ESP saved him here.
But you can't assume if he didn't have ESP he wouldn't manage to save himself.

CiniO

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Yeah, it is.



Skids when unexpected are always scary. You've lost control when you didn't want to. If your not scared of that your stupid.

I admit it's very bad to loose control and it shouldn't happen, but if it happens, there's no reason to be scared, but you have to act quickly and correctly to recover from the situation.
The sooner after skidding the action will be taken, the smaller this skid will be.

Were not in a Scandinavian country. We don't have skid pan training. Nor do we have the Winters that require that sort of training for the general populace.

Last winter showed otherwise.
During some frosts in November last year, I think 10 people which I work with (out of about 100) crashed their cars.

Practising something in controlled circumstances does not make you the perfect driver in uncontrolled circumstances. It will decrease the risk, but not remove it.

You can't remove any risk generally. It's always about minimising it within any domain of our lives.

Practising not having to skid in the first place is a far better use of a drivers time.

There should be time for both.

Nobody is going to disagree that the standard of driving here is below spec. But there are far better ways to get a better standard of driving, such as adding ESP and ABS to cars so that the drivers don't need to spend hundreds of hours practising skid training would be a good start.

Still vast majority cars sold in Ireland (including brand new) doesn't have ESP. Maybe in 10 years situation will look significently different. Not yet though for sure.

Nissan doctor

The point of ESP and all these safety systems is to try to compensate for the fact that the vast majority of people have no knowledge of how to control a car in emergency situations. Of course they make driving safer, because it means that people who would have otherwise crashed were saved by the computer.

But to say that in situations like that the car WOULD have crashed without having ESP is just not true. A driver with good car control/skill could have done the exact same move without ESP.


As for saying that adding ESP etc to cars is good because it means that drivers don't have to do extra training or whatever, thats not a view I could agree with. Thats just numbing everything down, we'll all be going around like the humans in the movie wall-e after a while with everything automated so we no longer have a need to use our legs or do any thinking for ourselves!

Increasing driver training and skill would have a much higher impact on road safety then filling cars with electronics, IMO that can actually have the opposite effect as people will start feeling that sure if something goes wrong the car will solve it for me....and that won't be a forward step IMO.

cornbb

Nissan doctor wrote: »

But to say that in situations like that the car WOULD have crashed without having ESP is just not true. A driver with good car control/skill could have done the exact same move without ESP.

I think a *good* driver would never have gotten himself into a situation where he had to perform that sort of emergency manoeuvre in the first place. "Advanced" driving skills like learning how to control a skid/slide in an emergency would be wasted on the sort of driver that can't pin down fundamental things like paying attention and staying back a safe braking distance.

CiniO

cornbb wrote: »

I think a *good* driver would never have gotten himself into a situation where he had to perform that sort of emergency manoeuvre in the first place. "Advanced" driving skills like learning how to control a skid/slide in an emergency would be wasted on the sort of driver that can't pin down fundamental things like paying attention and staying back a safe braking distance.

Remember that even the best driver makes mistakes.

Is there anyone on this forum who never made a mistake on the road?

mickdw

Reading this thread, there are alot of people commenting on the fact that the cars electronic systems saved the day. I dont agree. The systems on those passats are not up to a whole lot - The 05 to 2010 model anyway and I cant see this 'facelift' having improved a whole lot. Sure it has stability program but i found that it is far from idiot proof and furthermore would do little in this situation to improve the handling during the swerve. IMO, the driver would still need a good degree of feel to balance the car for that move, ABS or no ABS, specifically given the poor road conditions.

My old Audi TT had a pretty effective system but my current car and passat etc operate alittle behind the event imo. No substitute for a good driver.

I dont doubt that there are certain advantages of these systems such as the ability to brake single wheels etc which no driver can do no matter how good but in general, the usefulness of these on your typically family saloon in very limited.

Given that this is a new car, perhaps an important point to note is that the tyres are good and that it would have no defects

Brendog

at least he indicated

rolion

Jomcc wrote: »

Close one today 29/11/11 just north of Junction 10 on M7, Naas.
Clock is set incorrectly on camera.

Hi,
where did you get the camera in the car ?
tia

dr.fuzzenstein

TestTransmission wrote: »

What are you talking about?

Exactly. Since Micras never exceed 60 km/h, they never go fast enough to crash into anything. They get crashed into, more likely.;)

Nissan doctor

cornbb wrote: »

I think a *good* driver would never have gotten himself into a situation where he had to perform that sort of emergency manoeuvre in the first place. "Advanced" driving skills like learning how to control a skid/slide in an emergency would be wasted on the sort of driver that can't pin down fundamental things like paying attention and staying back a safe braking distance.

I didn't for one second say that the Passat driver in the video was a highly skilled.

As you rightly say, the highest skilled drivers will have the ability to read the road and even read other drivers and foresee many situations and take action before it even becomes an emergency situation. They will also be able to feel and know exactly how every steering/braking/acceleration input they make will effect the stability of the car and be able to act accordingly depending on the conditions.

IMO an important thing to keep in mind, even if you are 100% legally not at fault for an accident...in the vast majority of cases, you could still have avoided it.

dr.fuzzenstein

cornbb wrote: »

I think a *good* driver would never have gotten himself into a situation where he had to perform that sort of emergency manoeuvre in the first place. "Advanced" driving skills like learning how to control a skid/slide in an emergency would be wasted on the sort of driver that can't pin down fundamental things like paying attention and staying back a safe braking distance.

So, it would be better had he not have good car control and crashed?
Reality is, people are not perfect. Pencils have erasers. Accidents happen.
The attitude that "No one should ever crash under any cirumstamces, ever!" belongs in cloud cuckoo land.
Reality is, some people will get distracted, they will get caught out and if that happens, I'd say it's better to be able to yank the steering wheel, control the skid and prevent an accident.
After last winter many people came into the garage and said "My car is broken, when I brake the pedal vibrates and it makes a noise"
The never had the ABS kick in!
I know the government want us all to drive everywhere at 60 km/h max, and a lot of modern drivers, who have been taught that Speed Kills and that's all you need to know, will be completely helpless if they hit an icy patch, a puddle, find an obstacle in the road that they need to swerve around, find someone in the opposite lane, if their cars start to slide, if they have a blow out, in short, if anything happens to them that wasn't covered in the x amount of compulsory lessons they had to take (driving at 30 km/h and FOR GOD'S SAKE DO NOT DRIVE ON THE MOTORWAY!), they will throw their hands up, scream like a girl and crash.
I know I have avoided potential accidents because I have not always driven as the manual suggest, therefore I know what to in case of understeer, oversteer, skid, etc...
Nothing beats paying attention, but once you've been caught with your pants down, you need to be able to wrench that wheel around and stamp the brakes and avoid the crash.
Plan B, man!
The driver in the video is a dingbat of the highest order, but respect for saving it!

Lord Nikon

I changed my Triangle tyres to Pirelli PZero's, OMFG, they are savage. In the wet, I can hurtle around 45 degree bends at 60mph and not an inch of roll on them.

giggidy

Tea drinker

Voodoomelon wrote: »

That was seriously close, he didn't brake until the last moment.

dreadful driving the car was totally out of control, most likely because the driver has no self control

Nissan doctor

neuromancer wrote: »

I changed my Triangle tyres to Pirelli PZero's, OMFG, they are savage. In the wet, I can hurtle around 45 degree bends at 60mph and not an inch of roll on them.

giggidy

Most people can't fathom how night and day the differences between premium tyres and cheap tyres is until they try them back to back...especially in the wet.

C4Kid

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

After last winter many people came into the garage and said "My car is broken, when I brake the pedal vibrates and it makes a noise"
The never had the ABS kick in!

I knew when the ABS was kicking in but I got some shock as it sounded like it almost tore the car in half !

Jomcc

Nissan doctor wrote: »

A bit OT but @OP, could you not position the camera so that its view isn't partially blocked? If something came and hit you on your left corner it wouldn't even be on camera.


Originally Posted by Rolion
Hi,
where did you get the camera in the car ?

Camera is not fixed to car permenantly. It's camera I use on bike. Just stuck it to mirror with velcro. After yesterday's event, am seriously thinking of getting one specifically for the car.

Was surprised so much discussion on this and talk about cause/speed etc etc. I've uploaded longer video showing where Passat entered motorway and have checked my speeds from my sat nav. The Passat appeared to accelerate very much as I pulled in after passing truck.

SEE video on 1st post.

C4Kid

I'm suprised he even managed to build up that much speed in such a short space of time and distance after You pulled in OP! Thats just crazy on his part.

Tea drinker

just noticed the punto / focus makes an avoiding manouever as well.
The guy driving that Passat needs a serious talking to. Does anyone else think drugs are a factor here?

-Chris-

Tea drinker wrote: »

Does anyone else think drugs are a factor here?

Jumpin' Jesus, like this thread isn't off-topic enough!

pudzey101

Wow cant belive you got that close to lewis hamilton :eek:

Nissan doctor

Tea drinker wrote: »

just noticed the punto / focus makes an avoiding manouever as well.
The guy driving that Passat needs a serious talking to. Does anyone else think drugs are a factor here?

Thats a hell of a random direction considering its got to be 95% more likely that it was simply not paying attention.

damo86

Whoa what a topic overload!

Passat driver wasn't paying attention, swerved to avoid a crash successfully.

Prob went into halfroids on the way to get some interior cleaner to clean up the brown stains on his seat! :P

the end

mickdw

Makes a bit more sense now. It appears he was on your ass and most likely had that get out of my way attitude. When you moved in, he zoomed away with poor visibility and also probably having a good stare at the OP resulted in the near crash

MugMugs

So I ignored this thread until now and I am fascinated by some of the comments. Anybody who thinks that move could have been safely executed without ESP and decent tyres needs their heads checking. I was waiting on that car to spin out and the OP to bury it into him (sorry op) I'd say his dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree and his pants filled up pretty quickly too. ESP saved that driver and the OP and other road users.

Disgraceful driving and inexcusable. Shame there was no Garda or traffic camera catching that as he deserves prosecution. In fact, Id give that video to the Gardai. That reckless lunatic could have taken your life OP and could take somebody else's if he drives like that

Bigcheeze

MugMugs wrote: »

Anybody who thinks that move could not have been safely executed without ESP and decent tyres needs their heads checking.

First this

MugMugs wrote: »

ESP saved that driver and the OP and other road users.

Then this. Make up your mind

MugMugs

Bigcheeze wrote: »

First this



Then this. Make up your mind

Take yourself off the high horse there pal. I clearly included a double negative accidentaly. :rolleyes:

Padraig Mor

mickdw wrote: »

It appears he was on your ass and most likely had that get out of my way attitude. When you moved in, he zoomed away with poor visibility and also probably having a good stare at the OP resulted in the near crash

Exactly what happened I'd say. The shorter video made me think cruise control + texting or something. Longer one, only feasible explanation is the dickwad staring down the OP and misjudging the speed of the cars in front.

CiniO

MugMugs wrote: »

So I ignored this thread until now and I am fascinated by some of the comments. Anybody who thinks that move could have been safely executed without ESP and decent tyres needs their heads checking.

So you are trying to say generally, that for example this was impossible to be done? (no ESP here)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV13xfdkNNo

MugMugs

LIGHTNING wrote: »

And you came to that conclusion based on what? I have done alot more violent maneouvers in worse weather at higher speeds without any electronic gizmos and the car didnt magically fire me off the track.

CiniO wrote: »

So you are trying to say generally, that for example this was impossible to be done? (no ESP here)

MugMugs wrote: »

Anybody who thinks that move could have been safely executed without ESP and decent tyres needs their heads checking.

So I assume you've gone sliding around Modello with cheap 20 Euro a set chinese tyres in conditions like that and had no issues ? I tip my hat to you in that case.

Furthermore, the average Joe Soap irrespective of what he likes to think about himself would not be readily equipped to counter an inpending spin like that. Myself included and I like to think of myself as a pretty good driver. We're not all circuit stars at the end of the day.

Let's repoint this so. Do you both think that had that exact incident occured in those very same conditions on sh1t tyres and no ESP engaging there (which very much did assist that man) in that car that this video would'nt have ended a lot differently ? Seriously ?

ps - Cant view Youtube in work so can't watch your link.

Nissan doctor

CiniO wrote: »

So you are trying to say generally, that for example this was impossible to be done? (no ESP here)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV13xfdkNNo

Gobsh1te for doing those speeds past traffic is a given...


Excellent car control?...top shelf, no questions.

There will be those no doubt who would say he was just lucky, but anyone with a knowledge of how to properly control a car in emergency situations can see that his steering was spot on, he was beginning to correct from the instant at let go and was already starting steering correction in advanvce of the car snapping back the opposite direction.

Electronic aids are there to help people who don't have those car control skills so saying in such situations a car would definitely crash if it didn't have ESP is just incorrect. With most drivers behind the wheel, yes, but its not a given.

Would the drive in the opening video have crashed without ESP? I'm not sure he would, ESP doesn't have any control over the steering and he didn't steer violently enough to have lost traction on a modern car with new good quality tyres. If anything helped him it would have been straight forward anti lock brakes, not stability control.

As for what would have happened if the OP video passat has cheap chinese tyres on it, well, with the exact same move attempted? I think he would have hit the silver car in the overtaking lane...but any good driver would have been able to feel the levels of grip they have in given conditions and wouldn't have been going that fast. IMO, if you have cheap or worn tyres and can't feel the lack of stability even driving in a straight line at motorway speed in those conditions then your asking for trouble.

Remember there is an entire world wide motorsport based around controlling cars in massive slides and even changing direction and negociating corners while still sliding and most of the guys that do this are normal joe soaps so these are skills that any driver can learn.....IF they were bothered enough....and that IMO is where the problem lies. People always try to up-skill in their careers, yet when it comes to, statistically, the most dangerous thing you can do everyday,people are happy to learn the basic controls and nothing else.

Cuddlesworth

LIGHTNING wrote: »

In regard to my comment it was my old car a 1.2 8v punto with worn 20 euro snow tyres in the soaking rain simulating violent maneouvers.

What would you say the chance of a driver in a car with average road tyres, with no ABS and EPS being able to complete the same turn is? What would the odds be that they hadn't spent days of their lives pushing cars to the limit.

A 5% chance that they could make it? 2% chance. Personally I'd be starting with a decimal point and two zeros before I started to believe its possible. And do you know what statisticians would call that? Irrelevant. So I'm not sure what people are arguing here. Sure its possible. Its possible I could win the Euromillions. Its not going to happen though.

ZENER

Holy sh!t ! Was I the only one expecting the Passat to overtake the OP from the left just before the truck ?!

Ken

rolion

If the car details are clearly visible and the car/driver can be identified...based on the recording,can the Garda prosecute the offender driver !??

I'm seeing "smart-ass" drivers every day on our roads and after you bip to them,kind of expecting apologies i am getting only fingers UP,like it was my fault...

So i am really seriously thinking to get two-three cameras in the car and record (on SD cards) my driving and others too .

Is it legal to do it and also,legal to publish it here !??

tia

challengemaster

I'd assume same thing as photography applies - If you're in a public place or visible from a public place (within reason - ie. if there's no expectation of privacy) then it's perfectly legal, and whatever you do with YOUR video footage that you own is your business as long as you don't use it commercially

rolion

Kind of off-topic...today in Clonee village,a smart-ass just left the car park from ALDI,straight in front of me car...went after him (my driving course anyway) he began to run faster,hide in the village' petrol station,went in the station,he turned around (no petrol purchased) and began showing fingers and shouting at me...i stopped in the traffic and explained to his "highness ass" that the station has CCTV,his actions are being recorded and i will see him in the court...he ran away with the fastest speed possible...

what a character...

So either i can use the recording from the Station's yard OR get myself covered with a nice 3 cameras HD ,a big viewing angle and voila...create my own 'youdrive' channel !!

dr.fuzzenstein

MugMugs wrote: »

So I ignored this thread until now and I am fascinated by some of the comments. Anybody who thinks that move could have been safely executed without ESP and decent tyres needs their heads checking. I was waiting on that car to spin out and the OP to bury it into him (sorry op) I'd say his dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree and his pants filled up pretty quickly too. ESP saved that driver and the OP and other road users.

Disgraceful driving and inexcusable. Shame there was no Garda or traffic camera catching that as he deserves prosecution. In fact, Id give that video to the Gardai. That reckless lunatic could have taken your life OP and could take somebody else's if he drives like that

A long time ago, as a young and inexperienced driver, I got distracted and when I looked ahead again, I was almost on top of a queue of cars that had stopped.
I immediately hopped on the brakes (no ABS) and was sliding towards the rear of the last car, I would have hit it, no doubt.
So at the last possible split second I went off the brakes, yanked the wheel hard to the left and hard to the right again.
That way I was able to miss the car and catch the backend as it was sliding out, got it back into line and hopped on the brake again.
I came to a standstill about level with the third last car.
No ABS, no ESP, in fact no driver aids whatsoever in my '83 Opel Kadett.
Driver aids help, but they are not the B-all and end all, it is perfectly possible to execute any maneuver without them.
Otherwise Rally cars would have launch control, ABS, ESP, traction control, etc...