Broadsheet.ie & IT deleting articles relating to Kate's death

mikom

I believe Kate’s parents are to appear on the Brendan O’Connor show tonight.

Dudess

That apology is nauseating.

HellFireClub wrote: »

The reason (in my opinion), that The Communications Clinic are being slated on here, is not because folks are necessarily blaming that organisation for the death of the author of this article. It's because of the clear attempts to deprive people like ourselves of the right to discuss this whole matter. Is it a matter of public importance that a young girl takes her own life, in the expressed belief that whatever inner problems that she was experiencing, that she believed in good faith that these problems were substantially added to by the subsequent undertakings of her employer??? I believe this is a public interest matter, and that we should be allowed to discuss it. I don't believe that the common good is best served here by the story being effectively terminated because the business interests of The Communications Clinic, would have been clearly best served, if the story had never made it into the papers to begin with. Any legal resource who engages with The Communicatons Clinic for the purposes of attempting to further supress this matter, should be held to account by the rest of us who can see that there is a public interest matter here to be discussed, and the same should be said for The Irish Times. It will all come out at the inquest anyway, and it'll be public information then, so I don't see the logic behind threatening legal action to keep information away from the public, or to attempt to deprive the public of a basis for discussion, etc.

Yeah, I initially tried to see it from the perspective of the Communications Clinic, how they have a right to protect their name, but nah... heavyhanded tactics and appearing to be very threatened all together by an anonymous article that would have slipped under the radar had they not drawn attention to it? Makes me wonder what they have to hide if they are that afraid of the article. Horrible stuff. Kate Fitzgerald also tried her best to be balanced and reasonable in relation to her employers in the original article.

LizT

Honestly couldn't believe it when I saw the apology. It made me sick. What exactly do they mean that some of the points were not factual? Do they think that because the author is deceased that no one will fight her corner?

I can only imagine what her family must be feeling -first they lose their daughter after a long battle with an illness, then they have to deal with her article being butchered and finally the IT just stopped short of actually calling her a liar.

I've never liked Terry Prone because of a previous article she wrote about a person whom I had personal connections to.Thank god she is being shown up for the type of person she really is.

Hotblack Desiato

The spineless behaviour of the IT is sickening.

I thought the new editor showed extremely poor judgement a while back when he printed the clearly made-up 'eating cardboard' letter. The 'newspaper of record' has never retracted that and it was clear at the time that it was complete nonsense and written with a political intent.

This is a hundred times worse. He has no credibility as a journalist or editor. He should resign at once.

Hotblack Desiato

I expect, or hope, there are tons of critical letters going in to the IT editor right now. Wonder what if anything they will print on Monday?

Hersheys

mikom wrote: »

I believe Kate’s parents are to appear on the Brendan O’Connor show tonight.

Yep, at 9.40. I doubt much will be said about the IT/TCC but it will hopefully get people talking and in turn reduce the stigma around mental health.

It's just horrible timing from the IT to print this apology on the day of Kates memorial service.

Hersheys

Dionysus wrote: »

So wrote Kate Fitzgerald in her original letter, published on 9 September 2012. The Irish Times, to its shame, removed that section (and others) on 28 November 2012.

Last July another employee of The Communications Clinic brought a case against that company for bullying: Former employee claims she was bullied at Prone's PR firm

This case was meant to return to the courts in October 2012. However, there is no record of it online. Did The Communications Clinic settle this bullying case very quietly before October?

Unfortunately we'll never know - Kate can't tell us, and if TCC settled this you can bet that the employee involved won't speak up.

Dionysus

wrote:

Much of what my employer has done and said since my absence has been illegal. And I do not think for a minute that what my employer did was an isolated incident.

So wrote Kate Fitzgerald in her original letter, published on 9 September 2011. The Irish Times, to its shame, removed that section (and others) on 28 November 2011.

Last July another employee of The Communications Clinic brought a case against that company for bullying: Former employee claims she was bullied at Prone's PR firm

This case was meant to return to the courts in October 2011. However, there is no record of it online. Did The Communications Clinic settle this bullying case very quietly before October?

LordSinclair

Dudess wrote: »

That apology is nauseating.

Yeah, I initially tried to see it from the perspective of the Communications Clinic, how they have a right to protect their name, but nah... heavyhanded tactics and appearing to be very threatened all together by an anonymous article that would have slipped under the radar had they not drawn attention to it? Makes me wonder what they have to hide if they are that afraid of the article. Horrible stuff. Kate Fitzgerald also tried her best to be balanced and reasonable in relation to her employers in the original article.

The way this whole thing is being "managed" by The Communications Clinic, it reminds me of the initial strategy used by the church in relation to allegations of clerical child abuse.

The Communications Clinic should have nothing to fear from the truth, if the truth is as they say it is.

However if the truth is that this girl, by virtue of her employment, had been needlessly or ignorantly brought to the point of suicide, by having unnecessary stress heaped upon her at work in relation to a pre-existing medical condition, then if this is the truth, or if it is even remotely close to the truth, then we all have something to fear from employers like The Communication Clinic.

Whatever the truth is, nobody is best served by conniving to cover up the facts of this whole tragedy.

strandroad

lizt wrote: »

Honestly couldn't believe it when I saw the apology. It made me sick. What exactly do they mean that some of the points were not factual? Do they think that because the author is deceased that no one will fight her corner?

Since there was no legal involvement looks like Ms Prone told them "it's not true" and in a situation when it's her word against the dead girl's word they decided to brand the dead girl a liar. Even though she never named the employer or herself. Then they published an apology blaming the dead girl. Classy.

HellFireClub

I took a case against an employer once that contained allegations of harassment and bullying, I can't get into it because of a non disclosure agreement that my employer insisted was included into the settlement agreement at the time, I was forced through circumstance, into dropping the case, the dispute was settled (I couldn't pursue it for personal reasons), but make no mistake about it, the legal system in his country couldn't give a **** about your mental health or if you were bullied or not, they get paid a lucrative percentage of what you ultimately settle for and part of the settlement is always that you will resign your position immediately and never speak of your terms of departure to anyone again.

The Sparrow

I'm absolutely disgusted by the actions of The Irish Times. For as long as I can remember, the Saturday edition of the IT has been purchased in our house and I have used the IT website for Irish news. Well, this will be the last Saturday we buy the Irish Times and I've just deleted the bookmark to their website.

They have basically accused a suicide victim of being a liar without providing any evidence and with no right of reply for her because of the tragic circumstances of her death. Disgusting behaviour from a paper that I used to trust.

So much for the paper of record. And they have printed this accusation against Kate Fitzgerald on the day of a memorial service for her death. Appalling behaviour.

Apparently from Twitter, there will be a story about this whole incident and The IT and The Communications Clinic in The Sunday Times tomorrow.

Here is a blog started by a fried of Kate explaining the situation. The author is a journalist and media law tutor. From that blog post:

Is there a legitimate legal issue here?
Possibly – at an extreme stretch. Prone, Savage and their company seem to be arguing that the article should be suppressed due to jigsaw identification. This is a legal device which is rarely seen outside of rape cases. It basically means that the media shouldn’t publish two reports which juxtaposed together will lead to the revelation of the parties involved.

I suspect that the Communications Clinic are arguing that if you took Kate’s original article together with the subsequent piece in the Irish Times revealing her identity as the author of the original article, you might identify them and deem Kate’s views as damaging to their reputation.

Basically, they want the same anonymity as afforded to rape victims – but for a different reason.

expectationlost

peter murtagh should apologies for the upset he's caused to kate's family and friends

elefant

Only reading about this now, and I'm not in the country at the moment so I don't know if it's widely known about, but I'm totally shocked by the story.

It seems a bit complex, but what I take from it is that a big PR company, who represent in some way our Taoiseach and have fingers in all sorts of publicly paid-for media, have managed to create a sort of media censorship about a story they don't want to be made freely available. They have managed to spin a story that reflected badly on them into a story of a depressed woman, who eventually tragically took her own life, telling lies.

I've thought with disbelief at time of how in countries like Turkey references to certain events in the past are completely blotted from the public consciousness. While it might not be state censorship, it's censorship at a frightening level. I didn't believe something like this could possibly happen in Ireland.

How naive I appear to have been.

(If I've gotten something here wrong, someone please set me straight. I'd be happy to be mistaken in how I've perceived this.)

Hersheys

expectationlost wrote: »

peter murtagh should apologies for the upset he's caused to kate's family and friends

I don't think it was intentional on his part. He worked closely with Kates family to get the story across accurately and in a sensitive manner that ensured a lasting memory of Kate.

I think the pressure came from other sources for the article to be edited. Afterall, he said in the article that Kate gave him her real name before they published, and IIRC he said he cleared it with the editor. He also mentioned that there had been a previous professional relationship in that Kate would send him articles in a professional nature for publication. He knew (of) Kate, he knew where she worked.

I don't think any of Kates family & friends (or much of the general public for that matter) cared so much that last weeks article linked Kate to TCC - what it did was give a certain amount of closure to the tragedy. Nothing was said about the employers in any discussion I was involved in - it was all about how tragic the situation was. And how, as usual, Kate got the last word

Unfortunately the IT have turned what was a great "goodbye" into a farce and essentially called Kate a liar

Hersheys

elefant wrote: »

Only reading about this now, and I'm not in the country at the moment so I don't know if it's widely known about, but I'm totally shocked by the story.

It seems a bit complex, but what I take from it is that a big PR company, who represent in some way our Taoiseach and have fingers in all sorts of publicly paid-for media, have managed to create a sort of media censorship about a story they don't want to be made freely available. They have managed to spin a story that reflected badly on them into a story of a depressed woman, who eventually tragically took her own life, telling lies.

I've thought with disbelief at time of how in countries like Turkey references to certain events in the past are completely blotted from the public consciousness. While it might not be state censorship, it's censorship at a frightening level. I didn't believe something like this could possibly happen in Ireland.

How naive I appear to have been.

(If I've gotten something here wrong, someone please set me straight. I'd be happy to be mistaken in how I've perceived this.)

Fairly decent overview here:
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2011/11/30/kate-fitzgerald/

And today the IT published an apology to TCC, essentially calling into question the validity of what Kate wrote, even though it was apparently confirmed before publication by IT journalist.

The Sparrow

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2011/12/03/bully-for-them/

WoollyRedHat

mhge wrote: »

Since there was no legal involvement looks like Ms Prone told them "it's not true" and in a situation when it's her word against the dead girl's word they decided to brand the dead girl a liar. Even though she never named the employer or herself. Then they published an apology blaming the dead girl. Classy.

This is an important point. We are basically being told by the Irish Times, that the aforementioned company, who, by the by would never have received so much negative publicity, had they left alone and kept the follow up article as what it was, a tribute to someone who passed away, and their depression...

instead we have the amazing turn of events, where a conversation behind closed doors, evidently between TCC and Irish Times, in which they claim that points made, by Kate, are untrue, but provide nothing else, and expect the reader to accept their word as truth, and take it at face value... where is the transparency in that...

Are the Communications Clinic entitled to a right of reply? Absolutely. Should the Irish Times be allowed to write an apology, , without any objective anaylsis into what relevant points are lies, just because the person involved can't defend themselves? No, it is cowardly and makes the Communication Clinic and Irish Times reflect in an even worse light.

And I'm finding it hard to believe that The Irish Times didn't receive legal instruction, or even worse if they didn't... is it because they are under the influence of The Communications Clinic?

Dudess

expectationlost wrote: »

peter murtagh should apologies for the upset he's caused to kate's family and friends

This thread is not an appropriate space for attention-seeking.

Dionysus

There's a proposal over on Wikipedia to delete the article on Kate Fitzgerald. If any of the many people here who are familiar with this case can help in ensuring it remains, please help over there.

They are asking 'If you can address this concern by improving, copyediting, sourcing, renaming or merging the page, please edit this page and do so.'

It's probably a bit too clearly anti-Communications Clinic in its existing form, but it definitely should be kept. In order for that to happen, it needs contributors asap.

The Sparrow

Dionysus wrote: »

There's a proposal over on Wikipedia to delete the article on Kate Fitzgerald. If any of the many people here who are familiar with this case can help in ensuring it remains, please help over there.

They are asking 'If you can address this concern by improving, copyediting, sourcing, renaming or merging the page, please edit this page and do so.'

It's probably a bit too clearly anti-Communications Clinic in its existing form, but it definitely should be kept. In order for that to happen, it needs contributors asap.

Am editing it now. Trying to make it as impartial as possible so that readers can make up their own mind.

Dudess

Quite chilling stuff. But I hope there won't be a "You killed Kate" circus spurred on by the red tops and other tripe rags, because that kind of idiocy undermines the complexities of this terrible illness, as well as playing into the hands of the Communications Clinic.

The Sparrow

Wikipedia article edited. Tried to be as fair as possible whilst still relaying the important events so far.

strobe

The Sparrow wrote: »

Wikipedia article edited. Tried to be as fair as possible whilst still relaying the important events so far.

Looks good in it's current form now Sparrow. Fair play.

The Sparrow

Somebody else has edited it with more biographical info about Kate so that is great too. Hopefully some people who knew her will add some more info because I see it is still being considered for deletion.

Dionysus

The Sparrow wrote: »

Wikipedia article edited. Tried to be as fair as possible whilst still relaying the important events so far.

Excellent changes, well done. The more people who can add to it the better. The vote is here.

The Sparrow

Dionysus wrote: »

Excellent changes, well done. The more people who can add to it the better. The vote is here.

Thanks. It's important that it stays up.

How does one go about voting? Wikipedia seems to have quite a complicated system.

Dionysus

The Sparrow wrote: »

Thanks. It's important that it stays up.

How does one go about voting? Wikipedia seems to have quite a complicated system.

You log in (to hide your ip), or just click edit (and your ip will be shown) and then add your 'delete' or 'keep' vote to this voting/article discussion page, with your reason. Somebody then looks at it, counts up the votes and decides to keep or delete. I think!

Sooopie

The Sparrow wrote: »

Wikipedia article edited. Tried to be as fair as possible whilst still relaying the important events so far.

Great work, fair play to you.

Callipo

As a parent and someone who lost a cousin in similar circumstances I find the fact that issues like alcohol and pills are skimmed over like they were irrelevent.

Ireland needs to wake up to its problems with both. Not bury them when it comes to suicide and traffic accidents that result in deaths.

RIP Kate. Hope you are somewhere better.

Sooopie

Callipo wrote: »

As a parent and someone who lost a cousin in similar circumstances I find the fact that issues like alcohol and pills are skimmed over like they were irrelevent.

Ireland needs to wake up to its problems with both. Not bury them when it comes to suicide and traffic accidents that result in deaths.

RIP Kate. Hope you are somewhere better.

what does that have to do with this thread?

HellFireClub

I think we need to get real here for a minute and take a step back and look at the actual standard of people management in this country. Just take a look at the Work & Jobs forum on this site. There is a problem with the kind of people who worm their way into managerial positions in this country. Because promotion in this country tends to be who you know over what you can prove and demonstrate that you know, by way of formal academic certification, we get people in this country falling back on family and friendly connections to push through promotions into management roles and positions. Then we act all surprised and shocked, when this goes to the head of someone who actually hasn't a clue how to manage people, and people end up feeling bullied and tormented by "managers" who have no training, formal or otherwise, in human behavioual science or organisational theory.

Think about it for a second... If I turned up in Dublin Airport tomorrow morning and offered to take the 737 on the runway to Shannon, because my uncle "knew me", and thought I'd be right for the job, would you board the plane?!?

We obviously wouldn't tolerate a situation such as that, yet we are happy enough to let humans, (the most complicated entity on earth), by directed by largely unqualified, self appointed, over ambitious, career failures???

Dionysus

According to the very lively discussion on the caustically entitled Bully for Them, there is now a Facebook page set up to Boycott the Irish Times.

I don't have a Facebook account but for those of you who do, maybe you could spread the word.

I didn't buy The Irish Times today. Before this it was the best newspaper in Ireland (considering O'Reilly's rags are the opposition, this isn't exactly hard) but I'm going to keep my money in my pocket every Friday and Saturday (the two days I'd purchase the paper) from now until The Irish Times rectifies this awfully cowardly act. If something's interesting enough I can read it for free online. I don't have the goodwill now to purchase it just for the sake of financially supporting it as a balance to O'Reilly.

Sooopie

Its heartbreaking whats happened to Kate, and this mess after it all makes it even worse.

Sooopie

It will be 10 years next week since I lost my dad through suicide. My family still cannot mention, or speak of the event.

We remember him fondly, but can't admit the taboo surrounding his demise.

Its a heavy, hard weight to bare. But we're not victims, nor is my dad

Callipo

Sooopie wrote: »

what does that have to do with this thread?

Who knows.

No one is talking about it. Taboo etc.

Sooopie

Callipo wrote: »

Who knows.

No one is talking about it. Taboo etc.

Nice.

Callipo

Sooopie wrote: »

Nice.

How so?

Alcohol is a major factor is these cases.

Sooopie

Callipo wrote: »

How so?

Alcohol is a major factor is these cases.

Pr1cks like you don't help.

Mod note: Poster Banned

Callipo

Sooopie wrote: »

Pr1cks like you don't help.

You should watch the interview with her parents on TV now....

You don't help tbh.

Sooopie

Callipo wrote: »

You should watch the interview with her parents on TV now....

You don't help tbh.

Do you think you do?

tbh

The main message Kate and her parents are talking about is the taboo society has placed on metal illness. The stuff about .CC, while unpleasant, is a side issue imo. Kate never said that her job contributed to her depression. The conversation here seems to have turned into some people, some of whom only heard about this in the last 24 hours it would appear, taking an opportunity to stick a boot into "the establishment", and it seems like the message Kate was trying to convey us getting lost in that. I think that's an awful shame.

Callipo

tbh wrote: »

The main message Kate and her parents are talking about is the taboo society has placed on metal illness. The stuff about .CC, while unpleasant, is a side issue imo. Kate never said that her job contributed to her depression. The conversation here seems to have turned into some people, some of whom only heard about this in the last 24 hours it would appear, taking an opportunity to stick a boot into "the establishment", and it seems like the message Kate was trying to convey us getting lost in that. I think that's an awful shame.

On RTE 1 the interviewer has mentioned alcohol many times. And the family have agreed.

Dionysus

tbh wrote: »

The main message Kate and her parents are talking about is the taboo society has placed on metal illness. The stuff about .CC, while unpleasant, is a side issue imo. Kate never said that her job contributed to her depression. The conversation here seems to have turned into some people, some of whom only heard about this in the last 24 hours it would appear, taking an opportunity to stick a boot into "the establishment", and it seems like the message Kate was trying to convey us getting lost in that. I think that's an awful shame.

The Communications Clinic.

(owners: Terry Prone; Tom Savage; Anton Savage)

There, it wasn't that hard, was it tbh?

4zn76tysfajdxp

Dionysus wrote: »

The Communications Clinic.

(owners: Terry Prone; Tom Savage; Anton Savage)

There, it wasn't that hard, was it tbh?

I think you may have missed his point.

rovert

Who knew the media was this sleazy?

*continues to buy The Irish Times*

Hersheys

Elsa Chilly Treachery wrote: »

I think you may have missed his point.

The issue regarding the employer is secondary to the fact that Sally-Ann & Tom have lost an amazing daughter, William has lost an amazing sister and the many people who had the pleasure to have had Kate in their lives (myself included) have lost a truly amazing friend.

But what's happened in the media the past few days has been inexcusable, hopefully it reaches resolution soon.

temply

I won't be buying the IT again. This incident has proved to me what a small incestious country we are.

tbh

Dionysus wrote: »

tbh wrote: »

The main message Kate and her parents are talking about is the taboo society has placed on metal illness. The stuff about .CC, while unpleasant, is a side issue imo. Kate never said that her job contributed to her depression. The conversation here seems to have turned into some people, some of whom only heard about this in the last 24 hours it would appear, taking an opportunity to stick a boot into "the establishment", and it seems like the message Kate was trying to convey us getting lost in that. I think that's an awful shame.

[SIZE="6"]The Communications Clinic.[/SIZE]

(owners: Terry Prone; Tom Savage; Anton Savage)

[SIZE="1"]There, it wasn't that hard, was it tbh?[/SIZE]

What a literal way to illustrate my point. Thank you.

rovert

temply wrote: »

I won't be buying the IT again. This incident has proved to me what a small incestious country we are.

Yup after the banking scandals THIS was the tipping point. :eek: