Tekken Hybrid

Doctor DooM

Kiki, people read this forum in work.

By work I mean offices, with managers walking around. In suits and the like.

I don't know what mental arithmatic you're making which means that kind of picture would be easily explained to a 50 year old white male who's never heard of the word otaku, but believe me it couldn't.

I don't know how many times I've had to warn you but this is your last one.

Post something like that again and I will have to ban you. I don't really have a choice.

Easy way to make sure this doesn't happen: Don't post anime pics in the forum if you can't work out what's acceptable or not.

K.O.Kiki

Fine.
I'll only post CG renders of oily topless muscled men from now on.




p.s. don't browse Boards in work.

The Hound

How about posting 2 men almost naked scissoring each other while all oiled up? Come on Kiki, i know ya have that in your anime archive?

Actually, what is the Topic again?

K.O.Kiki

The Hound wrote: »

How about posting 2 men almost naked scissoring each other while all oiled up? Come on Kiki, i know ya have that in your anime archive?

Actually, what is the Topic again?

Will this do?

Aurongroove

Kuro Tao wrote: »

Oh, I see. I've offended you.
However, only two of the games you've mentioned are even played on a competitive basis anymore, those games being Street Fighter, and Mortal Kombat. And even so, you've failed to specify WHICH SF or MK game you've been playing "Lately".

Also, if you're talking about MK and "Launchers", you're doing it wrong.
Most normals in the game can start combos, and a lot of specials can too but most of them are unsafe and should be used as punishes. Almost every normal in the game is safe on block. Yes you have a breaker option, but you don't need meter at all for high damage combos.

I believe my comment was in response to you saying how "5-10 seconds cut off from input is borderline insanity for a vs fighter"?
So far you've managed to justify the fact that you play very redundant games competitively, and SF, which I'm not going to address because I know very little about it and would be idiotic for me to try.

BRINGING THE SUBJECT BACK TO TEKKEN: Eat less hopkicks. Learn how to read 50-50 mixups. Combo length doesn't really mean much. Without a wall, most characters are only capable of dishing out near 50% anyway, and most of those really high damage combos won't come from safe hopkicks, but rather more risky launchers.

you havn't offended me, you're just replying to my post...

sorry if the following wasn't obvious, but your reply shows me you misunderstood some of my angles:
firstly I don't play games competitively (except recently for tekken 6) and I am not posting from the point of view of tournament play,
secondly, I'm not complaining about getting hit with hop-kicks etc, I'm talking about Tekken subjectively as a series and why it's failing;
I'm not complaining, I'm investigating.


I'm also not talking about how much damage combos do or how fair or unfair a move is, I don't care if a combo kills you or not, and wither asuka can only punish a 100+ potential hop kick with 9 is a matter for game balancing. if anything I say make the hop kick do 50 damage, followed my two more hits that do 25 each to so the opponant dosn't have time to recite the alphabet while spinning his controller on his finger.
I'm talking about how long a player in a vs fighter spends not interacting with the game. (a game by definition being an interactive medium). people complained about the cut scenes in the later MGS's (less interaction, less fun) peole complain ALL the time about turn based systems in RPG's (less interaction, less fun)

Tekken used to have shorter combos and now it has longer ones.
Tekken used to be popular and now it isin't.

My point is (and this has nothing to do with tournament play) maybe Tekken needs to shorten it's combos, and by shorten I only mean in length not in damage, or else make a way (via combo breaker, or by using a way to limit the number of longer combos) for both players to spend more time 'active'

Going back to tournament play. tournament players probably wont see the difference between a combo which is three hits long, and does 60% and one that is 13 hits long for the same damage, but casual players will. It just isn't as fun an experience; it's like being sent to your chair in snooker. If even you were allowed to hold left or right to screw up the other persons combo or bash something for an attempted air recovery.
my argument is "less time interacting, less fun", not "combos aren't fair".

Kuro Tao

Fair enough.
On a casual level, I would almost agree with you.
Maybe it's because I've been playing the game that long it doesn't affect me anymore, if I eat a popup or launcher chances are the other guy knows what he's doing and won't drop the combo, meaning that I know exactly where that combo will end and how to wake-up from it best.
But hey, again that's just me.

In any case, I'd love to get a proper Tekken session going sometime after the holidays, who'd be up for this?

K.O.Kiki

Tekken's 10-second combos annoy me too much to make me care again.

It was fine when they were rare (situational, character-specific, off CH with slow moves etc) but now EVERY DAMN LAUNCHER is
POP, string 1, string 2, BOUND, string 3, WALL, string 4 into oki into FÚCK THAT.

Soulcalibur V better not have massive combos.

BigStupidGuy

Aurongroove wrote: »

Tekken used to have shorter combos and now it has longer ones.
Tekken used to be popular and now it isin't.

Very true.

Oh BTW I'll come in for a Tekken session, and we should tell that guy Nani about it too he'll defo come in. I'll bring Hybrid also

Aurongroove

If I'm free I'll join you. if anything it'll give you a 'casual' to pick on.

batman_oh

I'll come along for a session - havent played Tekken 6 in around a year now but should be able to get back ok within a day or two

Dr Bob

At the risk of asking a dumb question , is this out yet ? havent seen it in any shops in dublin??

BigStupidGuy

Yeah I saw in in gamestoP yesterday

Plumpynuter

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Tekken's 10-second combos annoy me too much to make me care again.

It was fine when they were rare (situational, character-specific, off CH with slow moves etc) but now EVERY DAMN LAUNCHER is
POP, string 1, string 2, BOUND, string 3, WALL, string 4 into oki into FÚCK THAT.

Soulcalibur V better not have massive combos.

Man I so agree with this. Long combos, on the ground moves, bounce and combo extenders are ruining fighting games for me and I have been a fan since fighting games began (yea I am that old). What has happened to spacing, normal's, footsies and defense. They still play a smaller part but that is the best part of FGs for me.

Long combo strings are boring and only reward one type of player. They make it difficult for new entrants into fighting games as people get pissed off when they make one mistake and get combo to death. Also comebacks and turn based RPG type combat systems are also working their way into every game released now.

BigStupidGuy

Yeah but every fighting game is Like that now. Even soul caliber has one hit kill ring out combos. You should try VF.

Doctor DooM

BigStupidGuy wrote: »

Yeah but every fighting game is Like that now. Even soul caliber has one hit kill ring out combos. You should try VF.

I've been playing SF4 based games for 2.5 years now against weak, average and even some really good players and I have never, ever been TODed in one. Even with maximised damage combos you generally don't lose more than 33%, unless an ultra is involved (which usually requires some set up). I agree about comeback mechanics though

3 on 3 games, yeah you can ToD in usually but that doesn't mean the fights over.

I've only ever been ToDed once in 3S, for that matter. Although that basically put me off a game I wasn't a huge fan of already.

UberPrinny_Baal

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I've been playing SF4 based games for 2.5 years now against weak, average and even some really good players and I have never, ever been TODed in one. Even with maximised damage combos you generally don't lose more than 33%, unless an ultra is involved (which usually requires some set up). I agree about comeback mechanics though

3 on 3 games, yeah you can ToD in usually but that doesn't mean the fights over.

I've only ever been ToDed once in 3S, for that matter. Although that basically put me off a game I wasn't a huge fan of already.

I don't have a problem with comeback mechanics personally. Ultras are fine as long as the animations aren't ridiculously long (some of them are silly). Getting hit by, or hitting with an Ultra is often a nice time to collect your thoughts about what to do next.

The biggest thing that puts me off fighting games is overly long combos, which if you do not tech properly, or know you're being reset, or react correctly at exactly the right milisecond; go on for 100% of your lifebar, and you spend the entire match being combo'd.

This is the number 1 thing that puts me off Marvel and Blazblue.

At least if you're bad at Street Fighter you get to attempt things that fail (blocked wakeup ultra). If you're bad at Marvel or Blazblue and a good player starts a crazy combo, you may as well put down the controller and walk away.

K.O.Kiki

BigStupidGuy wrote: »

Yeah but every fighting game is Like that now. Even soul caliber has one hit kill ring out combos. You should try VF.

VF has always had ring-outs, and even they're heading towards Tekken-style with Bounce combos and extended wall combos in VF5:R

Part of why I'm not excited for it.

Plumpynuter

In fairness I think you are right about SF4. SF (and KOF it seems) strike a good balance when it comes to combos and normal's. What I like about SF is that even high level play can consist of pokes, normal's and specials and you also have a chance to react. Rush down is different then combos to me and I love rush down and defense games.

I never put the time into SF4 to get good as I felt I missed the boat with it and had not got the time when it was released. I get the feeling that everyone is a bit bored with AE and that when SFxT comes out it will fall to the wayside and we will see SF5 in 2012/3.

I have tried with marvel and do enjoy watching and playing it but it is the cheapest and most frustrating game I have ever played online. Its hard for me to get to casuals as I have a couple of young children. Just trying to keep my hand in until I have the time to train to win EVO :P

Scavenger XIII

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

VF has always had ring-outs, and even they're heading towards Tekken-style with Bounce combos and extended wall combos in VF5:R

Part of why I'm not excited for it.

You say that like VF5R isn't old hat now.

PPC

Plumpynuter wrote: »

I never put the time into SF4 to get good as I felt I missed the boat with it and had not got the time when it was released. I get the feeling that everyone is a bit bored with AE and that when SFxT comes out it will fall to the wayside and we will see SF5 in 2012/3.

The 2012 AE patch came out and people are still finding their feet with it, perfect time to pick it up.

UberPrinny_Baal

PPC wrote: »

The 2012 AE patch came out and people are still finding their feet with it, perfect time to pick it up.

Agreed. I only got into to SF4 after Super came out, and although you will probably be in a situation where you find yourself below average in skill, the upside would be that you'ld have a lot more people at casuals of appropriate skill to help you out and show you what you're doing wrong.

As long as you ask, that is.

DrBhup

Well, this has to be one of the most retarded topics I've ever read!!

So this guy is basically complaining about other people having more skills than him??

Listen guy, those 10 second juggles are NOT easy to do! You need to practice hard and long before you can pull off those 100+ max damage juggles! Tekken is not about just throwing out random hopkicks and think that will lead you to victory!
Against a intermediate to higher level player, you'll just get punished for those hopkicks that usually are -12 to -14 framewise.

It seems to me that you don't like not being able to interact with the game while in a juggle. Your solution is to "just make a hopkick do 50 damage and two more attacks that do 25 damage each, and there, you have solved the problem..."..

Seriously??!!! THIS is your solution?? Make the game even more braindead??!! It takes alot of practice, dedication and timing and memorization of moves to be able to pull off those long comboes, and you just want to take out that part..???

My point is that the way the game is now, it atleast rewards a good palyer who have dedicated and practiced enough to do all those hard comboes. You wanna make those easy, thus removing the 'skill'part of the game???

Tsk tsk tsk..!!!

Try to do Roger Jr. or even Hwoarang max damage juggles! They are extremely difficult to do! The combo-system isn't Tekkens biggest problem!

The way I see it, the biggest problem is the difficult execution of all the basic movement. Backdashcancel is way to hard to do, in comparison to how important that move is. You have 40+ characters with 150 + moves each and you have to memorize not only the character you are playing but every string of every character and all the special properties that move has, in order to duck or sidestep the right way at the right moment to punish the opponent.

This is tidious work and not to much fun for most people. It's just to muck work for casuals to even bother learning the deep and intricate fighting enigine. The game is way too complicated.

You have grabs that only a fraction of people in the world can break at reaction. You have hopkicks that do serious amount of damage in comparison to how much punishment they can cause. You have the combos which you have to modify if there is a wall or not etc etc..

See, this is Tekkens biggest problem. The game is too complex and too deep for most people to even bother learning properly. They just mash out buttons, maybe learn a couple of strings and when they meet a pro player, they get anhillated, and complain about too long comboes and not being able to play for 10 seconds...

Plumpynuter

DrBhup wrote: »

See, this is Tekkens biggest problem. The game is too complex and too deep for most people to even bother learning properly. They just mash out buttons, maybe learn a couple of strings and when they meet a prop player, they get anhillated, and complain about too long comboes and not being able to play for 10 seconds...

Angry (impassioned) 1st post but you do make some good points mate . I can see the logic regarding skill levels to do huge combos in Tekken and your last paragraph makes a lot of sense. It is hard to strike a balance.

I also think that fighting games are not only about long combos. I am all for increasing the complexity of fighters and making them as deep as possible but 1 mistake and you are dead games are frustrating for people who want to learn them. Blocking, grabs, normal's, throws, parrys, spacing and combos all should play a part. Not just learning a string into muscle memory and playing it back like guitar hero. It only rewards one type of player. Also those bounce and juggle animations look a bit silly when somebody is floated across the screen with a series of jabs.

BigStupidGuy

The problem is that Tekken is becoming extremely elite... It's complexity is verging close to that of VF and people don't want to put that much effort into a game.

Example: I was getting my ass handed to me by a Marduk. When in practice mode later I realised I was supposed to be ducking in this string he was spamming. But I can't know that unless I learn his strings and every other character.

Basically Tekken is a little too complex for the average human to be bothered learning. Unlike street fighter where there's no possibility for spammy strings. The downside is that it looks kinda stupid in normal gameplay.

But I still think that tekken's complexity makes it the most exciting and rewarding fighter when learned properly. No doubt

DrBhup

BigStupidGuy wrote: »

The problem is that Tekken is becoming extremely elite... It's complexity is verging close to that of VF and people don't want to put that much effort into a game.

I agree with both of you!

BigStupidGuy, you are no big stupid guy! This is exactly what I have been saying in other forums.

I was directed here from www.avoingthepuddle.com which is dedicated to Tekken. I am a serious player and I complain alot about the arbitrary barrier that extremely difficult execution of some moves, put on people. Look at that post where he has the tutorial for 'instant while running' moves. I have linked this discussion to that.

Backdashcancel, sidestepcancel, 'instant while running'-moves and so on and so on.. it's exactly like you said; people don't wanna put that much effort into a game.

Heck, even people who put all this effort in Tekken are STILL not able to do some of those difficult things consistently. What is that all about?? Some of the greatest Tekkenplayers in the world are koreans, and even top players there aren't able to do EWGF consistently.

What's the point of making a game his difficult, that even worlds greatest players can't execute????

Some characters have braindead combos that take half a lifebar. Bob can easily do 90+ damage, while others, like Roger Jr., Ling, Hwoarang have extremely execution-heavy staple juggles which still only do like 60-70 damage! This need to be changed!

In my whole country there are only 2-3 who can do backdashcancel and break throws. What is that all about??? Only 40-50 people in my whole country still plays Tekken regularly -because it is so freakingly difficult and people just don't wanna put this much time and effort into a game (and even if they do, they're still not going to be able to do it regularly.)

Tekken is going to die if Namco don't slow down!

BigStupidGuy

Yes yes yes! I read your post 3 times and I agree. The only thing you didn't pick on was how juggling (extended with bounds) lead to walls being such a big player in T6 BR. That was my biggest upset with the game looking back. And something not looking to change anytime soon.

It seems like the more effort you put into this game the more you want to defend it and vice versa.

Aurongroove

Well, this has to be one of the most retarded topics I've ever read!!

So this guy is basically complaining about other people having more skills than him??

sorry mate but **** you; you've missed the point.

Listen guy, those 10 second juggles are NOT easy to do! You need to practice hard and long before you can pull off those 100+ max damage juggles!

They are easy to do. Practicing is not difficult; it's basically dialing in a repetitive figure over and over again until it's muscle memory. Musicians do this all the time when learning instruments, and like certain musicians, you seem to have confused dexterity and long hours of repetitive practice (which is easy), with difficulty.

Tekken is not about just throwing out random hopkicks and think that will lead you to victory!
Against a intermediate to higher level player, you'll just get punished for those hopkicks that usually are -12 to -14 framewise.

King's hop kick (knee) is -12 frames on block and can lead to a combo which leaves you at half health. For some characters (say I dunno, Asuka) the best punish they have is 9 damage to a -12 frame.

Whats worse, df+2 (launchers, again half health) are mostly ****ing SAFE!! or can only be punished with -10 or -11 punishers. Please tell me you understand that this is an imbalance.

It seems to me that you don't like not being able to interact with the game while in a juggle

. (ya think?)

Your solution is to "just make a hopkick do 50 damage and two more attacks that do 25 damage each, and there, you have solved the problem..."..

Seriously??!!! THIS is your solution?? Make the game even more braindead??!! It takes alot of practice, dedication and timing and memorization of moves to be able to pull off those long comboes, and you just want to take out that part..???

yes I do. again, practice isin't the same a difficulty. Tekken 3 & TTT had difficult combos because they were fickle and hard to time, hit boxes were picky, and heavy character fell differently. the combos took the same chunk of your life bar, they were just shorter.
T6 has magic gravity, where everyone falls the same, the combo system has been made as easy as possible ans as uninterruptable as possible, and now all one does is practice like a loner all day, Instead of actual match playing and getting good at the "actual game".
T3 & TTT were Vs fighters T6 & TTT2 is a "combo spelling bee"

My point is that the way the game is now, it atleast rewards a good palyer who have dedicated and practiced enough to do all those hard comboes. You wanna make those easy, thus removing the 'skill'part of the game???

Tsk tsk tsk..!!!

again, I think combos are easy to do, and require no Intelligence, only motor repetition. my argument is that i wish to see combo which need to adapt, every player has a slightly different fall speed or character can wall tech, or bind tech, etc. Force the attacker to pull of combos in which they need to pay attention to any escaping the opponant might try and either prevent the escape, or trap them with a trap oki, whilst keeping the combo going.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is the difficult execution of all the basic movement. Backdashcancel is way to hard to do, in comparison to how important that move is. You have 40+ characters with 150 + moves each and you have to memorize not only the character you are playing but every string of every character and all the special properties that move has, in order to duck or sidestep the right way at the right moment to punish the opponent.

I nearly agree, but then again, why not also make Kazuya's EWGF just 'f+2', or Hei's guarenteed followups for his chrome dome just a chain command?
You don't because tiers of difficulty of execution are needed in a fighting game.

my argument is literally that games are meant to be interactive, I'll say it till I;m' blue in the face, I'm NOT complaining about difficulty or damage, I'm literally only complaining about time spent not interacting. Answer this for me:
why not make combos shorter? same damage, same everything everything else, why not make just them shorter?
or
why not give opponents option to escape combos which the player has to deal with? your such a fan Of practicing, and being skilled you should love the challenge of each particular combo being it's own little challenge. How does this opponent try to escape combos? can I use it against him and trap him? etc.

This is tidious work and not to much fun for most people. It's just to muck work for casuals to even bother learning the deep and intricate fighting enigine. The game is way too complicated.

You have grabs that only a fraction of people in the world can break at reaction. You have hopkicks that do serious amount of damage in comparison to how much punishment they can cause. You have the combos which you have to modify if there is a wall or not etc etc..

See, this is Tekkens biggest problem. The game is too complex and too deep for most people to even bother learning properly. They just mash out buttons, maybe learn a couple of strings and when they meet a pro player, they get anhillated, and complain about too long comboes and not being able to play for 10 seconds...

again not a complaint, I;m only concerned abot ehy tekken is no longer a popular game.

as I said in a previous post
Tekken 3 was popular and Tekken 3 had short combos
Tekken 6 is not popular and Tekken 6 has long combos.

Doctor DooM

Aurongroove wrote: »

sorry mate but **** you; you've missed the point.

Verging very close to a personal insult there: Please take a quick look at the charter.

Fergus_

I thought the movie was ok

DrBhup

Aurongroove wrote: »

Answer this for me:
why not make combos shorter? same damage, same everything everything else, why not make just them shorter?

Because it's not given that even if a person gets in a launcher that he'll be able to do max damage combos every time. I cannot even pull of max damage combos for my main character all the time. I whiff, thus paying the price for not practicing enough.

Try learning max damage combos for Ling or Lee or other characters that are difficult to pull off. It shoud be rewarded if you actually put in the work to learn those combos.