Is Game/GameStop (etc) selling pre-owned games a con?

LighterGuy

Never bought a pre-owned game in my life. Especially after getting robbed once a few years ago by GAME with giving me a euro each for around 40 ps2 games.

But I rented Uncharted 3 last week from Xtra Vision. Wasnt the first guy who rented it and the online pass was already used (first come first serve no problems there) So I was wondering how much the pass was to get a new one from the PSN store... €9.99 euro! :eek:

Which makes you think about the pre-owned games. Game would give you around 22 euro for Uncharted 3 and sell it on for around 45 euro. (only 5 euro cheaper than brand new) But you can get caught with the online pass and having to spend more than to then play online than just buying a brand new copy.

Surely people dont buy the 'slightly cheaper' pre-owned games, right?

Pacing Mule

The online pass scenario is a way for the developers to make money from the pre owned market. Not all games have the online pass.

The pre owned value of a game is very much market driven. If the game shop has priced too high it won't sell and will have to be dropped in price. Believe it or not a lot of people don't have access to online so for some people it isn't a big deal.

Personally I don't see the point in paying €5.00 less for a pre owned game myself but some people are happy to do so.

deathrider

I suppose just don't buy games that need online passes second hand. I've seen a bunch of games that I wanted that were being sold second hand, but were online pass games, so I simply didn't by them. Waited a few months until the first hand price dropped, and bought them then instead. I buy most of my games second hand, but I just avoid ones that require passes.

richymcdermott

ive learned to not let the online pass bother me , 98% of online games for me and aload of ****e

Coriolanus

No one is being forced to buy anything from them. If you see a second hand game for 45 and a new for 50, and go for the 45, knowing that the developer doesn't get a penny then you deserve to get stung for an online pass.
It's not as if the packaging isn't explicit that an online pass is reqd and that it should be pretty obvious that a second hand one is probably going to have been used.

F1ngers

Nevore wrote: »

No one is being forced to buy anything from them. If you see a second hand game for 45 and a new for 50, and go for the 45, knowing that the developer doesn't get a penny then you deserve to get stung for an online pass.
It's not as if the packaging isn't explicit that an online pass is reqd and that it should be pretty obvious that a second hand one is probably going to have been used.

That's a fair comment for most of the users on this forum.

However, what about granny Nevore who wants to buy you a game as a present and goes for the cheaper option to save a few cent?

It's the casual buyers(especially at this time of year) that I feel sorry for.

Spent an extra €5 on Alice Madness Returns today for new instead of pre-owned. Will do that 99.9% of the time. Had it have been more than €5 - i'm not so sure I would have bought new.

Coriolanus

F1ngers wrote: »

That's a fair comment for most of the users on this forum.

However, what about granny Nevore who wants to buy you a game as a present and goes for the cheaper option to save a few cent?

It's the casual buyers(especially at this time of year) that I feel sorry for.

Spent an extra €5 on Alice Madness Returns today for new instead of pre-owned. Will do that 99.9% of the time. Had it have been more than €5 - i'm not so sure I would have bought new.

Caveat Emptor.
If I'm ever in the market for frsck, I don't know, knitting supplies? I'll ask Granny Nevore where the best deals are and what wool is good value for money etc.
If Granny Nevore is buying computer games for the grandkids she should have the sense to ask for advice.

Andy!!

LighterGuy wrote: »

Surely people dont buy the 'slightly cheaper' pre-owned games, right?

They do but they shouldn't. Buying pre-owned is more damaging to the industry than piracy and rentals put together.

dreamers75

Bought Bf3 on Ps3 as a present other day and was encouraged to trade it in by game person seriously at the till, being in a pissy mood i asked what value trading in a game was to me and they told me i could have X game for 20 quid.

I asked but that "meant i spent 70 quid on that game ?" the look she gave me was priceless. She said but you get X for 20 and possibly 1 if traded in X too for it.

So i said i get X for €101? She said "yes" she kinda realised i wasnt a retard and just gave me my game


If your not a "collector" trading is in for you, but to think its good value, your a fcuking retard.

krudler

I never buy preowned, its not worth the couple of quid would rather have a brand new one. with amazon and zavvi you can get games way cheaper than what a store will sell you preowned anyway.

Wetai

dreamers75 wrote: »

Bought Bf3 on Ps3 as a present other day and was encouraged to trade it in by game person seriously at the till, being in a pissy mood i asked what value trading in a game was to me and they told me i could have X game for 20 quid.

There were probably no used ones in the shop and she wanted it for a bit off :pac:.
Either that, or she's really trying to get noticed by a higher-up for "bringin in dem trade ins".

Zapp Brannigan

dreamers75 wrote: »

Bought Bf3 on Ps3 as a present other day and was encouraged to trade it in by game person seriously at the till, being in a pissy mood i asked what value trading in a game was to me and they told me i could have X game for 20 quid.

I asked but that "meant i spent 70 quid on that game ?" the look she gave me was priceless. She said but you get X for 20 and possibly 1 if traded in X too for it.

So i said i get X for €101? She said "yes" she kinda realised i wasnt a retard and just gave me my game


If your not a "collector" trading is in for you, but to think its good value, your a fcuking retard.

Good lad, how dare she do her job!

dreamers75

Zapp Brannigan wrote: »

Good lad, how dare she do her job!

Umm op asked if it was a con? your just reinforcing the fact it is

Zapp Brannigan

dreamers75 wrote: »

Umm op asked if it was a con? your just reinforcing the fact it is

Hardly a con, just business practise. I don't like it either but I never feel the need to belittle or talk down to the people who offer the service. All I do is say no thanks and be on my way.

Lantus

It's not a con buts it's very very lucrative. They sell each game copy 20 times over basically buying back the same game and selling it again. As it's second hand it isn't taxable. the dev gets nothing.

So good for the shops and very enterprising, goodish for consumers who can get good deals over time if they are willing to wait.

Bad for the dev who gets much less than the shop, and it could be argued bad for the consumer as it's the devs that need the money to create more games which is what the consumer wants. if our game devs are squeezed it's us that will suffer.

This problem will be solved in time, trust me.

Azure_sky

Zapp Brannigan wrote: »

Hardly a con, just business practise .

I fail to see the difference.:pac: Xtravision is the only place I tend to trade stuff in anymore. The rest give some insane trade in values on pretty new games.

Pacing Mule

Lantus wrote: »

It's not a con buts it's very very lucrative. They sell each game copy 20 times over basically buying back the same game and selling it again. As it's second hand it isn't taxable. the dev gets nothing.

So good for the shops and very enterprising, goodish for consumers who can get good deals over time if they are willing to wait.

Bad for the dev who gets much less than the shop, and it could be argued bad for the consumer as it's the devs that need the money to create more games which is what the consumer wants. if our game devs are squeezed it's us that will suffer.

This problem will be solved in time, trust me.

Pre owned games are taxable and include vat. The game store has to add on 21% to the sale price which is part of the reason pre owned margins appear higher than they are.

New games are heavily discounted at retail and at times are sold below cost. How many sales would gears 3 have lost if it was priced at 70 euro here which is the actual rrp. They are discounted that much to get the customers trade ins where the margin achieved can make up for the losses incurred on new games.

It's a ****ed up industry model all round but I can tell you if pre owned sales were taken out of the equation you'd end up with significantly higher retail prices and less demand for the games in the first place.

Kiith

I'll happily pay a little bit more for a new game over a 2nd hand game anyday. Gamestop and co and making a fortune off the 2nd hand market, and are just going to keep pimping it, as we saw in a recent thread.

I've absolutely no problems with online passes either. Publishers have to get something for those sales, and since Gamestop and co don't give them anything (afaik), it's the only real option at the moment.

boreder

Kiith wrote: »

I'll happily pay a little bit more for a new game over a 2nd hand game anyday. Gamestop and co and making a fortune off the 2nd hand market, and are just going to keep pimping it, as we saw in a recent thread.

I've absolutely no problems with online passes either. Publishers have to get something for those sales, and since Gamestop and co don't give them anything (afaik), it's the only real option at the moment.

You can hardly hold that against them, they're a business. Their aim is to make money, like every single other business in the world. This reminds of the thread of outrage when Ryanair upped their plane tickets to Poland after Ireland qualified for the euros. It's like some people expect these companies to do them a favour. They're not there to be your friend or be (your interpretation of) fair, they're there to take advantage of supply and demand.

Second hand sales keep the shops going. As someone said already, new games are sold at tiny, tiny margins and sometimes even at a loss. If the second hand market was to stop, how would the Game/Gamestop shops stay open? It would mean paying the actuall RRP on new games, which would be €65/70. There's very few games I'd buy for that kind of money.

My view to second hand games is that they suit a certain type of people, and power to them. Personally, I wouldn't trade in games due to the value they give. I've a copy of Madden 12 that I probably won't play anymore, but I'd rather have the game there incase the humour takes me, rather then trading it in for €12. I'd stump the extra €5 for a new copy when buying a game.

I buy the odd second hand game... MW3 for example, I'd like to have a few games of it but I'm not going to spend €50 on it. If I see it for €15/20 in the pre-owned section in 6 months I might pick it up. The developer? Well, I wouldn't have spent the money on buying it new anyway, so he's not losing out on a sale.

Kiith

I don't hold it against them, but as the 2nd hand market gets bigger, publishers are going to do more and more to try and stop it. Its happy days for Gamestop now, as they are making a ton of money from it, but its not going to last. If they keep pushing it, they'll lose out in the long run.

Azure_sky

I wonder what the net profit/loss is on DLC sales versus pre owned losses to the average developer?

FutureGuy

LighterGuy wrote: »

Never bought a pre-owned game in my life. Especially after getting robbed once a few years ago by GAME with giving me a euro each for around 40 ps2 games.

But I rented Uncharted 3 last week from Xtra Vision. Wasnt the first guy who rented it and the online pass was already used (first come first serve no problems there) So I was wondering how much the pass was to get a new one from the PSN store... €9.99 euro! :eek:

Which makes you think about the pre-owned games. Game would give you around 22 euro for Uncharted 3 and sell it on for around 45 euro. (only 5 euro cheaper than brand new) But you can get caught with the online pass and having to spend more than to then play online than just buying a brand new copy.

Surely people dont buy the 'slightly cheaper' pre-owned games, right?

GAME did not rob you, you were offered a price and you accepted it. I'm sure they didn't hold you at knifepoint. I have to laugh at comments like this tbh.

As for online passes/first owner bonuses, again, you are not forced to buy a game second hand. Besides, there are plenty games out there that have no such online pass/bonus and it's an extra fiver in your pocket.

Developers are losing a fortune because of the second hand game industry, and if they stay afloat by charging for an online pass, then that's fine.

Gamesnash.ie: Pat

boreder wrote: »

You can hardly hold that against them, they're a business. Their aim is to make money, like every single other business in the world. This reminds of the thread of outrage when Ryanair upped their plane tickets to Poland after Ireland qualified for the euros. It's like some people expect these companies to do them a favour. They're not there to be your friend or be (your interpretation of) fair, they're there to take advantage of supply and demand.

From our perspective we offer a trade in service - and I emphasise the word offer. If the customer doesn't think it's a good deal then they don't have to and should not accept it. At the moment for example I know that we are offering €9.50 for Black Ops (and falling) as we have loads of them coming in. Gamestop are offering around €5.00 for Black OPs - I can see why, they have hundreds of them across their stores and commercially it makes no sense to sit on stock for months on end but I personally think that Black OPs is worth more than that and would advise anyone with it to hold onto it. It really depends on your perspective of what the value of the game is to you at the time of trade in. Most people who traded it in put it towards MW3 and that's the game they will be playing for the rest of the year.

boreder wrote: »

Second hand sales keep the shops going. As someone said already, new games are sold at tiny, tiny margins and sometimes even at a loss. If the second hand market was to stop, how would the Game/Gamestop shops stay open? It would mean paying the actuall RRP on new games, which would be €65/70. There's very few games I'd buy for that kind of money.

The answer is either a) they would have to charge full RRP for the games or b) they start closing, eliminating competition and ultimately driving up prices (as a comic aside this is going to happen anyway as digital distribution becomes more prevalent - ultimately you will end up buying your games directly from the publishers who even when they take out the margin the shops are supposed to get and sell to you at their wholesale price as such will still end up being dearer)

boreder wrote: »

My view to second hand games is that they suit a certain type of people, and power to them. Personally, I wouldn't trade in games due to the value they give. I've a copy of Madden 12 that I probably won't play anymore, but I'd rather have the game there incase the humour takes me, rather then trading it in for €12. I'd stump the extra €5 for a new copy when buying a game.

Madden 12 should be worth a lot more than that but this paragraph is exactly my point from earlier. To you, you value the game and the ability to play it when the humour takes you. You value this at more than the current market value of the game trade in wise and therefore elect to keep it. That's how it should be.

And I would also throw in my usual comments on trade ins whilst here.

The margin achieved on pre owned games is a lot higher than new but it's not as high as most people realise. (Although there are some retaillers who try to make more than others) As mentioned already VAT is included in the sale price and also the price offered should not be compared to the current retail price of the pre owned game as that price is based on what that particular copy was traded in for. Sitting on large amounts of stock invariably drops the trade in price offered to subsidise a price reduction on the earlier traded in stock.

I personally believe that the trade in market does drive new game sales - both by subsidising the price of the new game (loss leading etc) and by allowing people not to have to pay the full cash price too.

There is a trade off, of course, where publishers lose new game sales to the pre owned market but nobody really knows the value of both sides.

We raised the possibillity before of revenue sharing pre owned game sales with the publishers in exchange for better pricing on new games but nobody was interested. From the publishers point of view they have already spent money on the product in terms of development - manufacturing a new CD print is a tiny fraction of the cost in producing a game so they want to keep selling new games at full price to themselves. The fair solution from the publishers perspective therefore is to get publishers in on the pre owned market and encourage the new market - online passes, exclusive content for new game / pre orders is therefore reasonable in my opinion.

Kiith

Gamesnash.ie: Pat wrote: »

as a comic aside this is going to happen anyway as digital distribution becomes more prevalent - ultimately you will end up buying your games directly from the publishers who even when they take out the margin the shops are supposed to get and sell to you at their wholesale price as such will still end up being dearer

As someone directly involved in this, assuming option b happens, how do you plan to survive if everything is taken inhouse? Do you think there's any way for yourselves or the Gamestops of the world to keep in business? Will you have to start offering digital distribution services, and will you even be allowed to? Would publishers be happy to remove you from the equation all together?

Genuinely wondering now, not hoping you go out of business :P

Gamesnash.ie: Pat

Kiith wrote: »

As someone directly involved in this, assuming option b happens, how do you plan to survive if everything is taken inhouse? Do you think there's any way for yourselves or the Gamestops of the world to keep in business? Will you have to start offering digital distribution services, and will you even be allowed to? Would publishers be happy to remove you from the equation all together?

Genuinely wondering now, not hoping you go out of business :P

Interesting questions

I don't think that digital distribution will completely take over the market. There will always be people who want a tangible product in their hand, gifting a download code doesn't have the same appeal at Christmas etc but I do think that it will erode enough of the physical market to make straightforward bricks and mortar retailing a very difficult concept to survive in. I can't see the large game chain stores like Game and Gamestop being able to keep so many game stores afloat. You will see the likes of Tesco etc become the goto shop on the high street to buy consoles and the top demanded games as they can incorporate it into an already running business.

Yes the way forward for Game and Gamestop is digitial and online distribution - they are spendng millions on digiital distribution. We don't have the kind of money to expand into digital distribtution so we won't be But that said I think it's only prolonging the inevitable - ultimately all digitial distribution will be done by the publishers directly or through services jointly owned by the publishers / developers etc Why would for example EA choose to give Gamestop a cut of Fifa 2020 when everyone who wants to buy it digitally, knows who publishes it and where their website is to download it ? They will be left primarily with websites selling physical copies of the game and a handful of retail sites.

For Gamesnash - well we pioneered online game retailing in Ireland and the concept of online trade ins too. We always thought that bricks and mortar retail sales were going to be a non runner in the long term. So we will continue to serve the market we are aimed at, a shrinking market perhaps, but for once our smaller size is something which helps us out here as we don't have hundres of shops and overheads to worry about accomadating as the market shrinks. Nor will we have the loans and finances of a digital distribution venture to accomodate. We can plough ahead and trade until such time as it no longer viable without losing millions in the process. Hopefully that time doesn't come and that there will always be room in that market for the independent service driven sites like ourselves. In fact we are outperforming the industry as we are experiencing growth at the moment. That said when you are competing with VAT free retaillers shipping from outside of the EU (zavvi, the hut, sendit etc) the proposed vat increase isn't going to help us out at all. It will certainly drive us towards the pre owned market even more which again doesn't help publishers.

We're mainly focussed though on our Gamesnash Live concept and that's something we intend to expand upon when the current economic turmoil settles down. We've plans in place for significant expansion of the concept so we're looking towards a bright future business wise.

(Just in case though my cv is available for anyone interested )

Zero-Cool

I was waiting for Pat to drop some knowledge on this thread

OP (and anyone else) if you ever want to trade in a game, give Gamesnash an e-mail 1st. A very friendly and easy way of trading games.

Plus like someone else said, if game, gamestop, hmv etc. stopped selling 2nd hand games, they prob wouldn't be making enough money to stay open and sell the new games to get the devs their money in the 1st place.