New to this, am I mad? Please read.

DonalK1981

I've invested in sailing for dummies. No experience at all worth talking about. I always wanted to sail. I plan on buying a small yacht, 3 here have peaked my interest. All located in various locations around the UK, furthest being Portsmouth, others are in Meseryside.

http://yachts.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=212253

http://yachts.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=217479

http://yachts.apolloduck.ie/feature.phtml?id=212013

Would I be signed in if I said I was going to attempt crossing the Irish Sea on my first outing? I will enlist a friend to assist me.

Which of these is the best option and why?

Thanks for any feedback!

Tabnabs

You do realise that it will cost you probably three times the amount to by the time any of these boats are sitting in the water of your chosen harbour?

What's you purchase budget, what's your annual budget and where do you intend to keep the boat? There are much better options closer to home.

DonalK1981

Tabnabs wrote: »

You do realise that it will cost you probably three times the amount to by the time any of these boats are sitting in the water of your chosen harbour?

What's you purchase budget, what's your annual budget and where do you intend to keep the boat? There are much better options closer to home.

How would it cost multiples? I would intend sailing it over myself.

The budget is around €1500 or there abouts on the boat, I would offer on the Snapdragon and the rest. Fly over sail back would be the basic plan.

That said I don't really know anything involved, that is why I am posting to get some advice/feedback.

Tabnabs

None of those boats are suitable for sailing to Ireland. Not by a complete amateur or by a not so complete amateur.

Keep your money in your pocket and take some sailing lessons. You are way out of your depth here.

tricky D

Learn how to sail first by getting lessons and by joining a crew at a local club. You might just find that you change your mind when a force 6+ with added nasty stuff dumps on you.

BrensBenz

Entirely agree about taking time and education. No disrespect intended - apologies if I sound harsh - but, when I first read your post, this was my first thought:

"And news just in….UK and Irish Coast Guard and emergency services are today risking their lives searching for a man and his mate who bought a “yacht” last week and decided to go blue-water sailing in it. Sources, who wish to remain anonymous, reveal that the individual in question was satisfied that a mobile phone with GPS, a borrowed copy of Sailing for Dummies and three Mars bars would be sufficient navigational and survival equipment for this voyage of discovery. Life assurance companies in Ireland and the UK are said to be preparing stock letters, with lots of tiny print, in readiness for claims."

For Heaven’s sake, do a recognised sailing course first and give yourself, your ”friend” and the UK and Irish emergency services a less stressfull life. Sailing is a great hobby but you have to have enough training and experience so that your actions to deal with dangerous situations are instinctive.

DonalK1981

So what level of courses will I need to do in order to sail one of those over? Is there no way of learning as you go along? I met a guy who was selling a boat, he said he thought himself.

FoxT

Have you thought about How you will avoid shipping & how they will see/avoid you? At night? in fog?

How will you navigate/know where you are?

What will you do if the weather turns foul? Or if you, or your crew fall overboard/start suffering from dehydration/exhaustion/hypothermia - and you are about 12 hours from the nearest land?

What would you do if some big, important bit of the boat broke or fell off? Like, say, the engine, or the rudder?

These are not 'what-if' scenarios - this kind of stuff happens all the time.

So, you are not mad, but it looks like you have not informed yourself of the planning/risks/contingencies involved. I suggest you do that first.

ISAW

DonalK1981 wrote: »

How would it cost multiples? I would intend sailing it over myself.

The budget is around €1500 or there abouts on the boat, I would offer on the Snapdragon and the rest. Fly over sail back would be the basic plan.

That said I don't really know anything involved, that is why I am posting to get some advice/feedback.

I havent looked at the links and will get back to you.
Im tempted to say "Why not just buy a car that has been written off at the scrap yard instead for say €100. Don't bother with tax insurance the fact it has no seatbelts or getting a licence given you dont know how to drive just yourself and your mate head straight for the motorway as thats probably the quickest way home."

Ill go back to my usual reply. Dont buy a boat - use some one elses!
It is a simple think to do . Join a club or do some lessons. Crew with someone. Then when you have some experience on what type of boating you want to do get into that.
Then buy a boat if you really want to.

Given your personality type you seem to want to leap in, so maybe you wont enjoy sailing and go for a motorboat or fishing boat. Then again I have the same personality type and a neurological disorder and am quite happy to spend eight hours alone at the stick cruising or racing other boats.


Don't forget
sailing club fees
off season storage
fuel
annual painting and maintainance
cost how much it will be to replace rig and sails

By the way of you put a boat on a trailer you can get it ferried to Ireland for about 30 euro a metre so you don't need to sail it!

ISAW

DonalK1981 wrote: »

So what level of courses will I need to do in order to sail one of those over? Is there no way of learning as you go along? I met a guy who was selling a boat, he said he thought himself.

I doubt he did it by sailing across unknown waters, at night, through shipping lanes, without safety equipment, or knowledge of how to use a radio, or first aid experience, with no passage plan, or liferaft, unable to communicate by whistle or understand what the visual and sound signals were, ignorant of what marker buoys are, unaware of offshore tidal currents and how to manage them or whatm way the wind will be blowing and what effectit might have on the passage, or what to do if someone drops overboard... I could go on.

Why not just by a book like the Reeds skipper handbook or a nautical almanic and read it while you are in this discussion? dont think by the way that just knowing what is in it is sufficient. Try not to go into any conditions you were not trained under even if you read about them.

fergal.b

I think the guys have said it all and the answer is in the question
Start off in a club and while your at that do a VHF and Navigation course http://vhf.ie/ then when it comes to buying a boat we will help you out, bear in mind as said above buying a boat like this is the cheapest part of boating before you even take it to the water you should get an engineers report "your insurance company will probability request one anyway"
Boating is not plain sailing

ISAW

Here are two reasonably priced boats in France from the boaternomics thread
I'm sure there are plenty more
If you are prepared to wait it shouldn't be a problem to find someone like me getting the ferry to hitching one up and towing it back next Summer. Id reckon even a professional delivery would be done inside €500. But what is your hurry?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74975094&postcount=15
Take a look at the other boats there

HeidiHeidi

Tabnabs wrote: »

None of those boats are suitable for sailing to Ireland. Not by a complete amateur or by a not so complete amateur.

Keep your money in your pocket and take some sailing lessons. You are way out of your depth here.

+1

I can't believe you're actually seriously asking this question. Whatever about "teaching yourself" sailing in a confined/relatively benign area, heading across the Irish Sea in a light, small boat with no experience of sailing/navigation/tides/passage planning/collision regulations/etc/etc is nuts, not to put too fine a point on it. There's no doubt (unless there's problems with them - have you budgeted for surveys?) that the boats would be able for the trip. Boats, in general, will go anywhere. It's the crew that's the weak link when things go pear-shaped.

If you've no experience of sailing, how do you know you won't be completely incapacitated by seasickness 10 miles offshore? Your pal would be in a right pickle then!

Am I right in thinking all three boats you're looking at have outboards? These are in NO WAY suitable as a backup if weather turns rough in the middle of the Irish Sea. I know this from trying to cross Dublin Bay in a headwind in rolly conditions!

Please don't interpret all the negativity in this thread as telling you never to get a boat! I was a late starter in sailing, but have been making up for lost time ever since. In about 12 years I've gone from a beginner Glenan's course in Clew Bay (highly recommended!) to crewing on Round Irelands and Fastnets and deliveries to Spain and back. We (three of us all with about the same experience) bought a boat - similar in size to the ones you've posted above - about 3 years after taking it up, having done practical and theory courses and having got lots of experience crewing for racing in Dublin Bay - best thing we ever did.

But you definitely need to go at it in a logical, measured way - get out there crewing with others, whether racing or crusing, and do a course or two so you actually know what's going on. That'll give you a better idea of what you actually want from a boat.

And don't underestimate the cost of owning a boat! Buying it is the cheapest part, by far. Especially if you're around the Dublin area. It's a very expensive business. Not for nothing was the cliche coined about sailing being akin to standing in a cold shower tearing up €50 notes

Slig

Just to add my 2 cents (you dont get a thread like this everyday:p)

Its a nice idea, but not in December. You only have a couple of hours daylight at best and the weather is dodgy at best. Sailing isnt a point and click method of travel. Depending on the direction ot the wind, the strenght and the sea conditions it could take a couple of days for an experienced sailor to make the trip. In the Irish sea that means 2 people on duty at all times for several days, hopeing neither of you gets sea sick or washed overboard.

I've lived on the sea all my life but only took up sailing in the last couple of years. You can learn the theory from a book but sailing is nearly completely about instinct. Knowing when to turn into the wind to stop the boat turning over takes a while. knowing what way to trim the sail, how much wind is too much, when to tack and when to jive and even knowing which direction the wind is coming from all take a long time to get the hang of. I can nearly guarantee you that your mate that taught himself did so in a harbour over a long period of time and spent a fair chunk of time and money on repairs.

From my experience, these boats are pretty old, if anything goes wrong from Nav lights not working to engine falling off or hull taking on water its a very lonely place to be, especially if you have no mobile signal.

It might be an option to just motor over on the outboard but with a small engine at slow speed its a long journey, you might'nt even get travelling faster than the currents and again, not in December.

ISAW

Another element you might not have considered is the variety of sailing

Some people want to race a dingy around cans
It requires quick reactions and lots of movement and is short burst adrenalin sailing
Some want to race across the bay or around islands
These are slower (except when rounding marks) but require more long term weather and current planning maybe some night sailing.
Some want to cross the channel or race round Ireland
This requires an additional element of food, emergency equipment, crew and logistics.

It isnt that offshore sailors are "better" than dingy sailors (in fact professional skiff sailors might do both but prefer the skiffs to blue water ) it is just what people prefer.

I might add lake sailors. I didnt start out in dingys. I go to Franceon Holodays and cruise the coast. Butmy son took upi sailing and we havea small lake near us that has a school. You can hire the 15 foot hobby cats there. I couldn't believe it! Very quick for their size and can move in nearly no wind but hard to time turning. Not exactly like a monohull dingy. But the real eye opener was the wind. At sea I was used to considering weather or windspeed shifts due to headlands or mountains. Also direction reversals due to offshore onshore cusp. But in a lake in a few lengths it can change by 90 degrees drop to zero gust 180 degrees and then give a constant flow with a 270 degree shift.


The point I am making is that there is such variety you need to discover what you like.

I mean take a dragster and across desert Jeep both have performance and involve risks but of a different type. One races quickly over a quarter mile the other slower but no too slow over a thousand miles or more.

Then there are the cruising sailors, day sailors, weekenders, people who go an holidays in boats ( again you dont have to buy you can charter) and people who live aboard.
Some live aboards don't travel far others go round the world.

To return to the racing car analogy you come across as a Geremy Clarkson/Top Gear fan type. Yes with no experience you can buy a clapped out car and drive it to Germany and go round the Nurbergring. But the idea of doing that as a substitute for learning to drive, getting a decent car and, if you wish, moving into track or rally racing, or just cruisiong or polishing it seems silly.
Most of this type of "boy scout adventure / lad" thing is all "set up" by the Top Gear Team anyway. The logistics involved are not visible.

ado100

I have to say that when I first read this post, I thought it was a wind up - maybe it is! Please, please, please, do not attempt an Irish Sea crossing in any of these boats.

No experience + the wrong boat + the wrong time of year = suicide!

Whatever about putting your own and your friend's lives at risk, you have no right to risk the lives of the rescue services who will inevitably be called to your aid.

I am very reluctant to dissuade anyone from going sailing, but this is madness. Get some instruction, join a sailing club, get some experience and think again.

Sheikh

I've not got a lot to add here, I am familiar with all of these boats. I think from memory the last time I crossed the Irish Sea it was in a 33ft boat and it took about 18 hours. It was tough going for all of us and most of us had many years experience. Small outboard motors are simply not designed to run for hours on end and in addition in any kind of chop, the motor will be in and out of the water giving you little propulsion. Also, I would guess from your limited budget for the boat that you are not going to have an appropriate budget for suitable sailing gear for a trip like this.

whitesands

This post reminds me of the Trotters going to holland on a boat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlPkbLhoeyA

ISAW

Why isnt the Atari Jaguar option in the poll?

EhBenDisDonc

Join a club. Take a sailing course. Seek a crewing spot and learn as fast as you can from those with experience. Do the odd coastal delivery. If you must buy a boat, get a dinghy. Most of all, maximise your time on the water, and back it up with reading and some well targeted education (eg. someone already said VHF). Soon you'll get a feel for just how much you need to learn, and how most of that will come from experience gained on the water. Find out if you're any good, or if you even like sailing.
Take heed of the advice so far offered up in this thread. If you want to throw out this (how shall I put it?) insane idea to a wider audience, post the exact same question to the PBO Reader to Reader forum.

LH2011

DonalK1981 wrote: »

I've invested in sailing for dummies. No experience at all worth talking about. I always wanted to sail. I plan on buying a small yacht, 3 here have peaked my interest. All located in various locations around the UK, furthest being Portsmouth, others are in Meseryside.

http://yachts.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=212253

http://yachts.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=217479

http://yachts.apolloduck.ie/feature.phtml?id=212013

Would I be signed in if I said I was going to attempt crossing the Irish Sea on my first outing? I will enlist a friend to assist me.

Which of these is the best option and why?

Thanks for any feedback!

those boats will be slow as a wet day, bilge keel, you need a little more weight, and a proper keel, to get close to the wind, and decent handling.

those boats are not suitable for off shore use, and total madness to even try.


i think a sailing boat for 1-1.5K , you could be buying someone elses heartache.


go up to carlingford, and take the sailing course, they use laser picos, and are good fun to sail.

and finally take this lads advice

HeidiHeidi

OP, did you ever do anything about those boats? Or take a course?

Give us an update - I've been wondering!

Ned_led16

DonalK1981 wrote: »

How would it cost multiples? I would intend sailing it over myself.

The budget is around €1500 or there abouts on the boat, I would offer on the Snapdragon and the rest. Fly over sail back would be the basic plan.

That said I don't really know anything involved, that is why I am posting to get some advice/feedback.

do day skipper then yachtmasters offshore then think about this and u will understand the complexiies...

DonalK1981

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

OP, did you ever do anything about those boats? Or take a course?

Give us an update - I've been wondering!

I've arranged to meet a man from boards to help him on his boat and to crew with him throughout the summer and coming months.

HeidiHeidi

DonalK1981 wrote: »

I've arranged to meet a man from boards to help him on his boat and to crew with him throughout the summer and coming months.

Phew!

Good decision. Best of luck with it all - the experience will stand to you if and when you decide you definitely want to buy.

Whereabouts will you be sailing, do you know? If it's around Dublin Bay, PM me the name of the boat, I'll wave if I see you on the water!

EhBenDisDonc

Good move. Enjoy your sailing