Challenging Property Management Companies/fees?

barryd09

Hi,

Im looking for advice from apartment owners on the fees property management companies charge.

Currently (and for the last 6 years) the fees have been in excess of €1500 per year.
The apartment complex consists of 13 apartments. There are no CCTV cameras,no security gates & no lifts in the complex,lights in the apartment complex carpark are not on
Everytime theres painting or other up keep required we are billed for them aswell. Does this sound right?
Should these not be included in the fees that are already paid?
There are common areas as with every apartment buildings,someone comes once a week with a garden blower to give the place a quick tidying, bins are included in the fees & from what i can see,very little else.

For example, outside my own apartment there is a drain pipe coming from the floor above, the drain doesnt seem to be connected to the wall correctly and spills out in heavy rain. The wall is stained,its gone green in a large area, presumably from water dripping down.

I have no problem paying management fees but now im at breaking point regarding the scale of the fees (€1500+ seems absolutley outrageous).

Basically im looking for advice on the fees & these companies in general.
Being an owner, do these companies not work for us? What can be done about getting the fees reduced in line with similar sized developments in the area? Are these companies not supposed to get the best possible quote for work & services that we are paying for??
With the amount of people out of work in this country currently,SURELY theres people/tradesmen/landscapers only too willing to quote more competitively for work than ever before?

I suppose when 'times were good' I,like alot of other people didnt challenge these fees but now with the budget looming,property tax coming in,fuel costs rising & job uncertainty ontop of mortgage & car repayments I really want value for money and to feel like i am'nt being ripped off for another year.

Does €1500+ seem like a genuine charge??

I would really appreciate some advice on engaging with the company about whats being charged. Im well aware of the importance & legal implications of paying (or not paying).
What can be done to get this company out & get a new company in offering a better service for the money being paid?

silja

It does seem high, but does it include car parking, how big is the apartment? I pay just over 1000 euro for a one bedroom in Dublin City, we are lucky though and have no major issues with non-payment of fees and a Management agent who is very on the ball. We have no car parking space, no lift, only minor green spaces, but a live-in caretaker and security gates. No extra payments for upkeep.

What do your yearly accounts say the money is being spent on? When is your next AGM? Could it be a lot of apartment owners do not pay and so there is no money for upkeep etc?

markpb

barryd09 wrote: »

What can be done to get this company out & get a new company in offering a better service for the money being paid?

Under the new legislation (Multi Unit Development Act, 2011), owners must be shown the budget for the forthcoming year at a General Meeting of the owners. The owners must approve the budget before it can be adopted and charged.

barryd09

silja wrote: »

It does seem high, but does it include car parking, how big is the apartment? I pay just over 1000 euro for a one bedroom in Dublin City, we are lucky though and have no major issues with non-payment of fees and a Management agent who is very on the ball. We have no car parking space, no lift, only minor green spaces, but a live-in caretaker and security gates. No extra payments for upkeep.

What do your yearly accounts say the money is being spent on? When is your next AGM? Could it be a lot of apartment owners do not pay and so there is no money for upkeep etc?

Thanks for your reply!

There is a parking space for each of 13 apartments plus 3 for visitors.
Theres a green area at the back of the apartments that has its grass cut maybe 6 times a year plus the bushes/shrubs are trimmed once a year.

There isnt anyone not paying up,its always listed on the accounts whats owed fom each owner,might be one or two that owe maybe €50 or €60 at the end of a year so i dont think this is an issue. Two of the apartments are owned by the county council & they are occupied with social welfare recipients,Im presuming they are picking up the fees for these units?

Its a 2 bedroom apartment,Im not sure why this would dictate the fees,does it?
The accounts (i dont have them to hand at the minute) usually show charges for bins,electricity,landscaping,accountant fees etc
(Im sure theres more but as I said i dont have them to hand at he minute)

Theres an AGM due soon I'd imagine but from past meetings these are poorly attended (and yes,by myself too). Seems to be a case that the company are just signing & paying for whatever they like and we're billed for it.

Should i try & get on the board as an owner? What powers if any would i have?
Again,do these companies work for the owners? Why are they running the place? Can they be replaced by another company? Is there a minimum contract length that these companies are in place before others can take over?

Im really a bit clueless as to all of this business. As i said im not against paying fees at all but i would be thinking €100 a month (€1200 per year) is more than enough to cover a small complex on the outskirts of galway.

Am i being unreasonable here?

Paulw

barryd09 wrote: »

Its a 2 bedroom apartment,Im not sure why this would dictate the fees,does it?
The accounts (i dont have them to hand at the minute) usually show charges for bins,electricity,landscaping,accountant fees etc
(Im sure theres more but as I said i dont have them to hand at he minute)

Theres an AGM due soon I'd imagine but from past meetings these are poorly attended (and yes,by myself too). Seems to be a case that the company are just signing & paying for whatever they like and we're billed for it.

Should i try & get on the board as an owner? What powers if any would i have?
Again,do these companies work for the owners? Why are they running the place? Can they be replaced by another company? Is there a minimum contract length that these companies are in place before others can take over?

Im really a bit clueless as to all of this business.

I think your last statement sums up a lot. You need to start with the basics, and educate yourself on management companies and how they are run.

You should always try to attend the AGM, and if you cannot go personally, you should send someone as your proxy.

You should review the budget and accounts for each year. The budget is based on planned expenses for the year. Once the expenses are planned, then the management fee for each unit is calculated (normally it's the total floor space of the units divided by the floor space of your unit).

The board of directors decide what should be budgeted for and what shouldn't. They decide on what you spend your money on. The decide who you use for refuse collection, who is used for all the different services.

The management agent (who you probably consider the management company) are employed by the management company. There should be some contract in place between management company and management agent. Normally the management agent deals with the day to day running, and they report to the directors of the management company.

Go to your AGM. Query the costs. Query the fees. But, before you go, have a look through the fees, since they may be accurate.

barryd09

Im fairly sure it is a property management company as opposed to an agent.
The company i deal with is called galway property management and who i pay the fees to it is 'the name of the complex' property management.

Can you point me towards what i need to educate myself on?

Seems apartment owning in this counrty is a real minefield.

Am i entitled to contact the other owners to meet away from the PMC to discuss fees etc?
Can the owners collectively dictate what we're being charged?

JaneyMacker

Just to give you an example for comparison.
In my complex in Dublin
its €650 per year for i bed apartment
€760 for 2 bed apt
€900 for 3 bed.

No lifts. No gates. All have parking spaces.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

lynchie

barryd09 wrote: »

Im fairly sure it is a property management company as opposed to an agent.
The company i deal with is called galway property management and who i pay the fees to it is 'the name of the complex' property management.

Can you point me towards what i need to educate myself on?

Seems apartment owning in this counrty is a real minefield.

Am i entitled to contact the other owners to meet away from the PMC to discuss fees etc?
Can the owners collectively dictate what we're being charged?

They may be a company called "galway property management" but they are acting as an agent for your management company which you as an owner you are a shareholder of.

Mangement Company: http://www.consumerproperty.ie/your-issues/property-management-companies.html
Managing Agents: http://www.consumerproperty.ie/your-issues/managing-agents.html

barryd09

JaneyMacker wrote: »

Just to give you an example for comparison.
In my complex in Dublin
its €650 per year for i bed apartment
€760 for 2 bed apt
€900 for 3 bed.

No lifts. No gates. All have parking spaces.

See,these are more realistic figures IMO. Im actually shocked that a 2 bed in dublin would cost almost half what a 2 bed in galway does in fees!
I know each development is different but still,almost half? And in Dublin?

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ive just spoken to somebody in the company and there was an AGM last night, i got no notification of it which is really annoying.
Should have a detailed list of expenditure by early next week to look at.

lynchie wrote: »

They may be a company called "galway property management" but they are acting as an agent for your management company which you as an owner you are a shareholder of.

Mangement Company: http://www.consumerproperty.ie/your-issues/property-management-companies.html
Managing Agents: http://www.consumerproperty.ie/your-issues/managing-agents.html

cheers for those links.

JaneyMacker

Get on the committee yourself. After a few years embedded committee members become like Fianna Fail. They think everything they do is right and are really only working in their own interests and not in the best interests of all tenants. They start instructing the agents to give jobs to relatives companies and so on.
Its always good to change them every 2 or 3 years before they think they own the place and arent just share holders.

The rest of the people in the complex need to tell the committee to get the agents under control or resign. I bet they dont resign though.

And I bet if you look at who is on it you will find that they are embedded and see the rest of the owners almost as adversaries in their way.

barryd09

JaneyMacker wrote: »

Get on the committee yourself. After a few years embedded committee members become like Fianna Fail. They think everything they do is right and are really only working in their own interests and not in the best interests of all tenants. They start instructing the agents to give jobs to relatives companies and so on.
Its always good to change them every 2 or 3 years before they think they own the place and arent just share holders.

The rest of the people in the complex need to tell the committee to get the agents under control or resign. I bet they dont resign though.

And I bet if you look at who is on it you will find that they are embedded and see the rest of the owners almost as adversaries in their way.

AFAIK one of the directors is also a director of the company i pay the money too. Is this possible/allowed??
I have a feeling youre right about who they are getting to do the work around the place,it is like they have a vested interest in it.

Paulw

barryd09 wrote: »

Im fairly sure it is a property management company as opposed to an agent.
The company i deal with is called galway property management and who i pay the fees to it is 'the name of the complex' property management.

Can you point me towards what i need to educate myself on?

Seems apartment owning in this counrty is a real minefield.

Am i entitled to contact the other owners to meet away from the PMC to discuss fees etc?
Can the owners collectively dictate what we're being charged?

Galway Property Management are the management agent.
"the name of the complex" management company are the management company, which you (as a unit owner) are a member of.

You should make sure that the management agent has all your correct contact details, especially for notification of AGM, etc.

Your AGM is where you meet with other company members and decide how the money is spent and what the fees should be. At the AGM should be a proposed budget.

As for education - read the articles of association of your management company (should be available via CRO website), and read your Lease Contract, which you signed with your solicitor upon buying the property.

The management fees are dictated by the costs of running your development, and have no relationship to where it is. Our development costs about 900 for a 2 bed, 1200 for a 3 bed, and there are only 112 units in our place. It is almost impossible to compare costs of running developments, since there are so many factors at play.

Every year, at the AGM, directors must be elected. At the AGM members have the power to remove directors. Every member has a vote.

JaneyMacker

barryd09 wrote: »

AFAIK one of the directors is also a director of the company i pay the money too. Is this possible/allowed??
I have a feeling youre right about who they are getting to do the work around the place,it is like they have a vested interest in it.

Ask for a list of all the companies work is contracted out to.
Also ask if anyone, agents or committee members have any relationship with them. They'll probably say no anyway.

Put letters in every door outlinging your concerns about the price and invite them all to meet you in the pub and talk about it.
Even get their contact details from the agents and ring them.

THen get a list of jobs that are done. Put out requests for tenders yourselves. If you are happy with what you get back then its time to make your move.

Go to the AGM. Make known all that you have found out. Fire the accusations of shenanigans straight at the committee if there are any to be fired in front of everybody. Tell them the costs the current agents are costing you versus what you have got. Point out that the current guys should have got you as good a deal. Why didnt they. Laziness? Corruption? Take a vote. Replace the committee. Replace the agents. And start again in full control of your collective destinies.

Sounds easy doesnt it

Marcusm

I assume your development was built by Lally/Lalco? Galway Property Maagement do a number of their developments includingthe fairly large Kilmainham Sq development in Dublin.

Look at the accounts/budget but I imagine the two largest items will be common parts/liability insurance and the fee for GPM. It's a fairly small development at 13 units but the admin is probably not that much different from a 50 unit development. If you have no complex issues (ongoing defects, complex maintenance) maybe you should get together with some f the other owners and take the management back in house.

athtrasna

barryd09 wrote: »

Im fairly sure it is a property management company as opposed to an agent.
The company i deal with is called galway property management and who i pay the fees to it is 'the name of the complex' property management.

Can you point me towards what i need to educate myself on?

Seems apartment owning in this counrty is a real minefield.

Am i entitled to contact the other owners to meet away from the PMC to discuss fees etc?
Can the owners collectively dictate what we're being charged?

Slightly out of date with the MUD but the basics are right, buy "The Essential Guide to Apartment Living" by Robert Gogan ASAP, you really do need to learn a lot and fast. Living in a managed development brings rights and responsibilities, nobody else will protect your investment (or lessen the negative equity) like you can. Information is key.

PaulW's posts are excellent and informative, he is one of the most knowledgeable posters on here when it comes to management company issues. Follow his advice and you won't go wrong.

Also check out apartmentowners.ie - it's a great resource.