Vintage Rifles - 303's, Mosin Nagant, Mauser

KickstartHeart

Hi,

I am an experienced shooter, but I want to purchase a good vintage military rifle.

Iv'e looked into 303's, Mausers, and Mosin Nagants so far.

Does anybody know which would be the best rifle to look into more and purchase. My budget is 300 quid. I know for 300 you might not be getting the cleanest rifle in the finest condition, but I intend on cleaning it up, re-bluing the metal work, re-finishing the stock etc.

Iv'e come across a Mosin Nagant for 250 euro. Would this be too cheap for one of these? Its a distance away from me so I haven't got to look at it.

Any tips on buying some of these vintage babies? Where to get them, at the best prices, and what are considered to be good prices for the different kinds?

Thanks.

Cass

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Hi,
Any tips on buying some of these vintage babies? Where to get them, at the best prices, and what are considered to be good prices for the different kinds?

Thanks.

I don't shoot them myself, but some lads will be along that do.

As for where to get them. Try Fingalsports. ( www.fingalsports.com ). Sound lads, and good prices. Plus they are into their shooting too so a great source of info.

Nearly sure its John you want to talk to.

Boiled-egg

Try Duffy's in galway. I know he has a selection but no idea of the prices

rowa

I think 250 is about right for a mosin , but if you spent a bit more you could (if willing to apply for a restricted licence) get a yugoslavian mauser, they are excellent and cheap.

KickstartHeart

Thanks lads,

I must add to this thread,

Anybody know where I can get a Swedish Mauser or a DECENT Lee Enfield 303 (no. mark 3 or no. 4 mark 1.) within my budge of 300 euro's.

Appreciated

rowa

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Thanks lads,

I must add to this thread,

Anybody know where I can get a Swedish Mauser or a DECENT Lee Enfield 303 (no. mark 3 or no. 4 mark 1.) within my budge of 300 euro's.

Appreciated

You won't get an enfield for that sort of money unless its one of the military rifles converted to a stalking rifle by churchill or cogswell and harrison. You would get a no.4 for around 500-550.

Norwayviking

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Thanks lads,

I must add to this thread,

Anybody know where I can get a Swedish Mauser or a DECENT Lee Enfield 303 (no. mark 3 or no. 4 mark 1.) within my budge of 300 euro's.

Appreciated

I can get swedish mausers and krag jørgensens in Norway for around 300,its usually collectors,but they seem to be up for sale regulary over there:D
And usually in 6.5x55,but also in the later versions in 308;)

FISMA

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Hi,
Iv'e looked into 303's, Mausers, and Mosin Nagants so far...
Any tips on buying some of these vintage babies? Where to get them, at the best prices, and what are considered to be good prices for the different kinds?

KickstartHeart,
I cannot speak to the price of these firearms, however, I'll recommend the ones I think are best. I've owned or currently own them all: Enfield No4 MkII, K31, Mosin Nagants, and the K98.

I suppose the Springfield 1903 (Mauser bootleg) and the Garrand are out of the question?

1) Forget the Nagant. I am not trying to offend anyone. But the Nagant is not in the same class as the Enfield, Mauser, or K31.

2) As much as it pains me to give the edge to the Enfield over my beloved K98's, I have to do so. (No offense, offence to my right honourable online friends). The No 4 MkII is just a thing of beauty. Talk to anyone in the Army that shot this rifle. They'll tell you what it can do, starting at 300ya. Indeed, I've seen what they can do.

I also love the K31. If straight-pull action is your game, you'll love this one. Out of the decades old aresenal crate they shoot a MOA at 100ya, if not better.

So, all things considered equal, I would go, in order, with: Enfield, K98, and then the K31. If prices vary a lot, I may reconsider the order.

Also, check them out and see if you like the sights. Are you going iron sights or are you going to get glass on them? If you are going to stay iron sights, you'll love the peep sights on the Enfield. I never liked the K98 peak/valley, and the K31 are somewhere in between. Albeit a personal decision, its one you'll need to make.

Have you sussed out ammo prices yet? That should be a determining factor too.

firefly08

1) Forget the Nagant. I am not trying to offend anyone. But the Nagant is not in the same class as the Enfield, Mauser, or K31.

As an owner of a Finnish Nagant (widely regarded as the finest type of Mosin Nagant out there) I agree with this 100%. Is it the Lada of WW2 rifles IMO.

The No 4 MkII is just a thing of beauty.

Also agree completely. I couldn't comment on the accuracy having not shot them at long ranges, but they are very well made, and have an old-world quality about them. Of all the WW2 rifles, this is the one with the X-factor.

The K31s have the best fit and finish I've seen on WW2-era rifles - as good as any modern firearm (they were Swiss rifles, surprise surprise ). You owe it to yourself have a look at one of these before you make a decision. I have not shot this one myself but I am itching to.

KickstartHeart

Thanks lads.

I'd be sticking with iron sights.
Over all I really do think the rear aperture sights on the Enfield would suit me better. But I think the older, no 1 mark 4 looks much nicer as a rifle. And also, having said that about aperture sights, the sights on the K98 do appeal to me.

I haven't looked into springfields yet. Any body know how much they're going for out there? and what sort of prices are there on 30-06 ammunition?

I have looked into ammunition prices etc and if you buy military surplus in bulk they're all at prices that are ok with me.
Bar the 6.5x55. It seams to be a tad expensive compared to everything else. What are the best prices people have come across for 6.5x55mm's?

Norwayviking wrote: »

I can get swedish mausers and krag jørgensens in Norway for around 300,its usually collectors,but they seem to be up for sale regulary over there:D
And usually in 6.5x55,but also in the later versions in 308;)

How long does it take you to get the Swede mausers in? What sort of condition are they in? And where are you based? (PM me on that one)


Thanks again lads.

Remmy

I have a serious hankering for a vintage rifle. How much would you be talking about for a 1903 springfield? Silly question but would the barrel be rated for modern commercial ammunition?

rowa

Any of the swedish mausers i have seen are in excellent condition as they were refurbished by the arsenals in sweden before being packed off into storage. If a rifle needed a new barrel then it got one fitted regardless of cost.
There was a batch of norwegian mausers around a while ago chambered in .308 win. One of those would be a real keeper as its not a restricted calibre and cheap surplus ammo is available.
One military rifle i would like is an enfield p14 or m1917. These are also known as the american enfields as they were all built in america to a british design, as the british didn't have the manufacturing capacity during the first world war. The pattern 14 is in .303 british and the m1917 is in .30-06 springfield.
There were a batch of springfields sent over here from the american during the "emergency" but i don't know what happened to them. The americans pay big sums for them now so they would be expensive if you found one.
Why not a mosin ? I know they aren't exactly a holland and holland, but they are cheap and so is the ammo and the fun of military surplus rifles is shooting a piece of history, if you want a target rifle look elsewhere.

tac foley

I 100% support paying a visit to John Kavanagh at Fingal Sports. Many of the members of the Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland url]www.vcrai.com[/url have dealt with him over the years, and you couldn't hope to deal with a fairer man. Many members of the VCRAI shoot a Lee-Enfield of one kind or another, simply because of the long association of this series of rifles with Ireland, from the Easter Rising through the Independence War and into the Civil War itself. It continued to be used, in one form or another, right up until the early 1960's with the introduction of the FAL. My favourite, for personal reasons, is the Canadian-built Long Branch version.

Privi Partisan [PPU] make a very fine replication of the original 174gr load that is as near as dammit like shooting the real thing.

As for the others mentioned, well, this is my take, based on shooting them all for many years -

Any Russian-built Mosin-Nagant - great value for money, built like a tank and cheap as chips - so is the milsurp ammunition, much of which is corrosive, BTW. No great shakes in the accuracy department unless you get a sniper version [not within the OP's budget, tho']. Tula or Izhevsk arsenal-built rifles are better to shoot than any of the carbines. Carbines can be a lot cheaper, but if you ARE even the slightest bit gun-shy then the carbine, with its built-in bayonet, will kill or cure you.

Any Finnish-built Mosin-Nagant - the famous M39 - a MUCH better bet than any Russian gun. Mostly built by Tikkakoski [that's the modern-day Tikka factory, BTW].

Remember that these guns have MUCH mana attached to them - all of them went to war.

Swedish m/96 rifles by Mauser, Carl Gustav or later Husqvarna, or the many variants like the m/96-38 [cut down by 5.5" for handiness] will shoot like a mad thing - IF the barrel is a good one. Here I diiffer from the advice of my friend Rowan above - Do NOT trust the brass disc symbols - you really have NO idea how long it is since the last inspection was carried out. Trust a good long hard look down the barrel instead. The threaded muzzle found on most rifles is NOT for a moderator but for the Swedish issue blank-firing attachment. Ammunition is not cheap, but Privi make it, as, of course, do most everybody else. A civilian marksmanship programme rifle with diopter sights can be a great buy, but I'd bet that all of them are over the eu300 mark. I have a near unmarked m/96-38 based on an 1898 action - it shoots into around an inch ten-shot groups with Privi or other stuff. If you DO find one, make sure it has the letter 'T' stamped on the right-hand side of the foresight pedestal, and the corresponding 300m backsight. If the brass stock disc is still there [many are not], it will have the word 'Torped' - Swedish for 'Spitzer' stamped into it. This shows that the gun has been set up for the newer 139gr bullet that we all know and love for its remarkable BC at reasonable ranges, rather than the old round-nosed heavier job. If updated [post 1941, when Husqvaran took over the making of them from the Carl Gustav arsenal], it will have the word 'overstrick' and a number like 1,2 or 3. This is the height above the point of aim that the bullet will hit at 100m - a 'strick' is an old Swedish measurement of around 3". Many Carl Gustavs and Mausers will be all-matching, obviously the ones to go for, but Husqvarna-built guns might have mis-matched barrel bands and non-pressure-bearing parts. This is commonplace, and is really a never-no-mind. So long as all the barrel, receiver and bolt parts match, you're good to go.

They NEVER went to war, but I shot the Norwegian sniper version for 13 years in Nordic games bi-athlon competitions in the Army. The 6.5x55 Swede is a pussy-cat in the recoil stakes. I took my one and only moose with an open-sighted issue gun back in 1990, shooting Norma 140gr SP. One shot - one moose/elg.

The Swiss K31 is the Rolls-Royce of military rifles - the earlier IG [Infantry Gewehr] Model 1911 long rifle or the Karabiner Model 1911 of one kind or another can be sweeter to shoot, but IMO, the king of them all is the K31. All shoot the exact same 174gr GP11 surplus ammunition at around 2650fps, so it is a serious ould thumper to be shooting from prone. I have three of them, and have been shooting them all since the late 1970's, and have the dent in the shoulder to prove it. It's a sure waste of time trying to improve the GP11 ammunition - in Switzeralnd we shoot it in the 300m ISSF three-position match from rifles that may have cost up to eu800-10000 [mine, a K31-actioned TR in .308Win, cost me £120, BTW, but almost £400 for the sights].

If you count the Swiss as the most effective military force - remember that the threat of being shot at by literally a nation of snipers is one of the things that kept the nazis out in the last WW - then the K31 is the boy for you. the somewaht odd cleaning régime adopted by the Swiss back in the 1870's and their use of grease rather than oil, added to the extremely high chrome content of their barrel steel, has ensured that if YOU have a bad one, then that's it - the rest of us can rest easy knowing where it is. My K31, with about 15,000 down it by ME alone, still gauges only 7,515mm at the muzzle. Add to that - there is a very fine no-drill clamp-on diopter target sight, as well as a similar scope mount. To help out the recoil-sensitive, there is a clamp-on or thread-on muzzle brake that reduces the substantial recoil by up to 30%, a harmonic damper to soothe the twitchy muzzle and give more accuracy, and even a clamp-on bipod mount. These gun are supported by an excellent website url]www.swissrifles.com[/url, and even though, sadly, you'll find me on it, it's well-worth a look.

Prolly outside the OP's eu300, though.

As ever, in spite having just returned from Finland and full of cold, I'll answer any queries you might have - even better by pm.

Finally, and unsurprisingly, I recommend anybody interested in shooting historic or classic arms to join with the VCRAI - they keep telling me what a great bunch they are, and to tell the truth, I'm beginning to believe it. :=) John can tell you all about it - I'm much too biased.

tac
www.vcrai.com
www.swissrifles.com

Hibrion

This K31 intrigues me. I've never been able get into the vintage rifle thing as I can't shoot an iron sighted rifle right handed, but would I be able to use a K31 left handed?

I'd love a garand but I'm not willing to go to court to get one

tac foley

Hibrion wrote: »

This K31 intrigues me. I've never been able get into the vintage rifle thing as I can't shoot an iron sighted rifle right handed, but would I be able to use a K31 left handed?

I'd love a garand but I'm not willing to go to court to get one

Hi there - yes, you would, but it wouldn't be the easiest or handiest thing you've ever done. Thankfully, there are now TWO Left-hand operating rod conversions available.

1. The so-called Buergingeraet - made in Switzerland and priced accordingly - around eu275-300.

2. The Swiss Products version, recently on the market, well-received and 100% effective - in fact, it has an even handier compound lever action and is easier to operate than the Swiss model - price around $120 or so.

As these prices are often more than we paid for the gun in the fust place [my K31 cost me $89.95] most of the lefties who who shoot the Swiss stuff put up with the awkwardness of leaning over the gun.

Just keep your nose out of the way, is all.

Give me a pm and I'll send you pics if you like - there ARE some who have one, or like me, three.

Best

tac

Hibrion

Would be interested in a few pics, tac. Thanks.