Was the Republican campaign justifiable?

Chuck Stone

trendyvicar wrote: »

Can anyone summarise what would be different now if Republican groups had never existed?

Nope, because that would be talking about an alternate reality that didn't happen and this isn't a sci-fi novel.

K-9

Chuck Stone wrote: »

This is not true.

There are plenty of people on this site who condemn Nationalist violence on the one hand but who supported the illegal war on Iraq, Call for an attack on Syria, support Israel's attacks on Gaza and Lebanon and call for an attack on Iran.

Liam doesn't, in my experience at least, in fairness to him.

Probably a few, still doesn't justify a slur that can just ruin the debate.

Fratton Fred

Border-Rat wrote: »

Then why does that free-state army exist? If Dublin was invaded tommorow, it would be 'nonsense' for the Irish army to counter-attack, merely because the enemy was in a stronger position?



I didn't say anything about 'easy'. Since when are military decisions based on whether or not they're easy?



Then what is the point of the Irish army? If they can't defend 06 Counties? They have responsibility for 4 times that size.



Less so is it even mentioned. The IRA afforded us protection up here. What did they detractors do? Nothing. If you people don't want the 06 Counties, refrain from throwing muck over how we defend ourselves.

You people want to pontificate, but at the same time you want no responsibilities.

How does bombing a shopping centre defend nationalists in the north?

Zombrex

Border-Rat wrote: »

Then why does that free-state army exist? If Dublin was invaded tommorow, it would be 'nonsense' for the Irish army to counter-attack, merely because the enemy was in a stronger position?



I didn't say anything about 'easy'. Since when are military decisions based on whether or not they're easy?



Then what is the point of the Irish army? If they can't defend 06 Counties? They have responsibility for 4 times that size.



Less so is it even mentioned. The IRA afforded us protection up here. What did they detractors do? Nothing. If you people don't want the 06 Counties, refrain from throwing muck over how we defend ourselves.

You people want to pontificate, but at the same time you want no responsibilities.

If Ireland was invaded the Irish army (being an actual legitimate army) would most likely spend most of its time holding back the invading troops so that civilians could be evacuated to safety.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't just go and blow up an Argos :rolleyes:

Chuck Stone

K-9 wrote: »

Probably a few, still doesn't justify a slur that can just ruin the debate.

I didn't want to ruin the debate FWIW and it's not so much a slur as an opinion I hold.

There are constant threads on this site questioning the actions of northern Nationalists and few (none?) that examine the brutality of the British and their proxies.

Border-Rat

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How does bombing a shopping centre defend nationalists in the north?

Civilians will inevitably get hit in a war, so will infrastructure. You should know this, seeing as how your lot started it and the experience you have killing innocents abroad.

Would you care to point out a conflict without civilian losses?

Zombrex wrote: »

If Ireland was invaded the Irish army (being an actual legitimate army) would most likely spend most of its time holding back the invading troops so that civilians could be evacuated to safety.

By the formers logic, if they lost ground it would be senseless to counter-attack.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't just go and blow up an Argos

Ah right, because the oul Irish army doesn't have any roots of terrorism. Is that right? Burning Protestants in their homes, fine and dandy, so long as it was in the 26 Counties.

Border-Rat

The same people who critisize the IRA will be out celebrating in 2016. Celebrating 26 County terrorism. Theres a word for that, although I got a 'warning' for using it previously.

KeithAFC

Border-Rat wrote: »

The same people who critisize the IRA will be out celebrating in 2016. Celebrating 26 County terrorism. Theres a word for that, although I got a 'warning' for using it previously.

Some people are proud of the Irish Republic. Some Irish people don't want anything to do with Northern Ireland. That is why they celebrate 1916.

Zombrex

Border-Rat wrote: »

By the formers logic, if they lost ground it would be senseless to counter-attack.

It would be senseless if the goal was to drive the invaders from the shores. Most armies in the world could easily destroy ours.

But you will notice I didn't way that was the goal. The goal of the Irish Army in such a scenario would be to protect civilians for as long as possible in order to evacuate them.

Was this what the IRA were doing when they were putting bombs in dust bins? Protecting civilians?

Border-Rat wrote: »

Ah right, because the oul Irish army doesn't have any roots of terrorism. Is that right? Burning Protestants in their homes, fine and dandy, so long as it was in the 26 Counties.

The Irish army is answerable to the President of the country (an elected official) and the Minister for Defense (an elected official). All members of the Army are bound by law to the Army code of conduct and Irish law.

If you have evidence that a member of the Irish Army, or any member of the Irish Defense forces has been involved in burning Protestants out of their homes I suggest you report this to the civilian authorities that regulate the Army.

See how this works in a legitimate system. I wonder who do you complain to if you have a complaint about the IRA :rolleyes:

trendyvicar

Border-Rat wrote: »

Civilians will inevitably get hit in a war, so will infrastructure. You should know this, seeing as how your lot started it and the experience you have killing innocents abroad.

Would you care to point out a conflict without civilian losses?

Then why are Irish Nationalists always ranting and raving about "Bloody Sunday" and the big bombs in Dublin - in fact dead Nationalists generally (who for some reason are always suddenly transformed into "Catholics" or more often "innocent Catholics" immediately they expire)? What's the big fuss, if as you say, civilians inevitably get hit in war?

karma_

trendyvicar wrote: »

Then why are Irish Nationalists always ranting and raving about "Bloody Sunday" and the big bombs in Dublin - in fact dead Nationalists generally (who for some reason are always suddenly transformed into "Catholics" or more often "innocent Catholics" immediately they expire)? What's the big fuss, if as you say, civilians inevitably get hit in war?

As someone from Derry, my blood boils when I see Bloody Sunday mentioned like this. Ranting and raving?

Bloody Sunday had nothing to do with a War, it was a civil rights march that was attacked by the forces of the State.

trendyvicar

karma_ wrote: »

As someone from Derry, my blood boils when I see Bloody Sunday mentioned like this. Ranting and raving?

Bloody Sunday had nothing to do with a War, it was a civil rights march that was attacked by the forces of the State.

In the context of a violent conflict.

The question was addressed to Border Rat, as he was being relaxed about civilian casualties during a violent conflict. I assume you are enraged by every death during 'The Troubles' who ever they may have been and not just those at 'Bloody Sunday'.

Zombrex

trendyvicar wrote: »

Then why are Irish Nationalists always ranting and raving about "Bloody Sunday" and the big bombs in Dublin - in fact dead Nationalists generally (who for some reason are always suddenly transformed into "Catholics" or more often "innocent Catholics" immediately they expire)? What's the big fuss, if as you say, civilians inevitably get hit in war?

Exactly, you can't blame the British for killing civilians by firing blindly into a crowd of unarmed civilians. It was war, civilians get killed wars, just an unfortunately fact.

[me stands back and waits for 10 Republican posters to completely miss the point and start screaming of course you can blame the British and how dare I suggest otherwise I must be a West-Brit and an apologist for the British Army! :P]

Zombrex

karma_ wrote: »

As someone from Derry, my blood boils when I see Bloody Sunday mentioned like this. Ranting and raving?

Bloody Sunday had nothing to do with a War, it was a civil rights march that was attacked by the forces of the State.

Lol, wow that didn't take long. Well played trendyvicar, well played.

Sunnyisland

For a very long time the british government never recognized that it was in fact a war and tried unsuccessfully to put it across that it was a few bad paddies who had no support at all.Even now they wont open there files on the dublin bombings or Pat finucane,Don't know why as we the people who lived there through it wont be a bit surprised by there acts of killings.

lugha

Border-Rat wrote: »

Then why does that free-state army exist? If Dublin was invaded tommorow, it would be 'nonsense' for the Irish army to counter-attack, merely because the enemy was in a stronger position?


I didn't say anything about 'easy'. Since when are military decisions based on whether or not they're easy?

Any action, of any kind, that any sensible person makes would be premised on the idea that the consequences of that action is to improve matters, or at the very least that there would be a reasonable expectation that it might improve matters.

The idea of doing something, anything at all, even if it makes matters worse (and a border crossing by the Irish army would certainly have made things worse) is quite simply mindless.

Border-Rat wrote: »

If you people don't want the 06 Counties, refrain from throwing muck over how we defend ourselves.

Ah, the familiar lie. You cannot defend the indefensible actions of PIRA who acted against the wishes of the Irish people and instead resort to the straw man. Once again (though I am sure you will continue to ignore this point as the rest do), PIRA are not being criticized for defending Northern Catholics. And on that matter, how many PIRA operations can you cite where it might reasonably be argued that any Catholic NI was safer or better protected as a consequence? Very few I imagine.

And PIRA made it our business. I would have no great interest in what they did and how they did it had they confined themselves to Northern Ireland. But they had the arrogance to presume they represented the Irish people as they set about trying to subvert this state.

Zombrex

realies wrote: »

For a very long time the british government never recognized that it was in fact a war and tried unsuccessfully to put it across that it was a few bad paddies who had no support at all.Even now they wont open there files on the dublin bombings or Pat finucane,Don't know why as we the people who lived there through it wont be a bit surprised by there acts of killings.

That is surprising given that apparently once you call something a "war" you can kill as many civilians as you like and later just shrug and say "meh, its war, civilians deaths are inevitable"

I would have thought the British would have jumped at the chance to explain away all the civilian deaths they caused by just calling it a war.

blahfckingblah

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people are proud of the Irish Republic. Some Irish people don't want anything to do with Northern Ireland. That is why they celebrate 1916.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_the_Irish_Republic i must have missed the bit about partition

karma_

Zombrex wrote: »

Lol, wow that didn't take long. Well played trendyvicar, well played.

I'm not a Republican.

I'm strictly only even participating in this topic as a Derry man, and only in regards to Bloody Sunday.

I'll ask you something else, if so many Nationalists in the North supported the armed campaign, why then, throughout the Troubles did they flock to vote for the SDLP and not SF?

Sunnyisland

Zombrex wrote: »

That is surprising given that apparently once you call something a "war" you can kill as many civilians as you like and later just shrug and say "meh, its war, civilians deaths are inevitable"

I would have thought the British would have jumped at the chance to explain away all the civilian deaths they caused by just calling it a war.

What is surprising about it ?

Chuck Stone

Zombrex wrote: »

Exactly, you can't blame the British for killing civilians by firing blindly into a crowd of unarmed civilians. It was war, civilians get killed wars, just an unfortunately fact.

It was a despicable cowardly act of brutality.

Zombrex wrote: »

Lol, wow that didn't take long. Well played trendyvicar, well played.

Well played? Strange.

KeithAFC

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It was a despicable cowardly act of brutality.



Well played? Strange.

No more cowardly than the PIRA on Bloody Friday and Enniskillen. The Republican movement has such hypocrisy about the Troubles. The British Army = Bad. The PIRA = Good. Its laughable.

Chuck Stone

KeithAFC wrote: »

No more cowardly than the PIRA on Bloody Friday and Enniskillen. The Republican movement has such hypocrisy about the Troubles. The British Army = Bad. The PIRA = Good. Its laughable.

I've told you before on numerous occasions that you're outside the spectrum of people I'm interested in discussing these matters with so I don't know why you continue to try to get my attention.

Zombrex

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It was a despicable cowardly act of brutality.

Well you apparently didn't get the memo. It was in fact a "war", and didn't you know, calling something a "war" means you don't have to justify civilians deaths, they are "inevitable" in a "war" so I mean what can you do, they are just going to happen, right?

Sunnyisland

KeithAFC wrote: »

No more cowardly than the PIRA on Bloody Friday and Enniskillen. The Republican movement has such hypocrisy about the Troubles. The British Army = Bad. The PIRA = Good. Its laughable.

The nationalist and catholic communities of the six counties were an oppressed community and had every right to rise up against there aggressors,What was the British Army and your community doing keith ? Murdering everyone that don't agree with you.

Zombrex

realies wrote: »

What is surprising about it ?

Surely the British government would be egger to not have to explain or justify killing lots and lots of civilians. I mean the IRA seem pretty happy with this, they just called it a "war" and they can say that civilian deaths were just an inevitable consequence of it being a "war"

I would have thought the British government would jump at the chance to wash their hands clean of all the civilian blood as the IRA did.

karma_

KeithAFC wrote: »

No more cowardly than the PIRA on Bloody Friday and Enniskillen. The Republican movement has such hypocrisy about the Troubles. The British Army = Bad. The PIRA = Good. Its laughable.

I agree with the bolded part.

However, Keith, a majority of the Unionists in the North believed, and still do that all Nationalists supported the IRA, which itself is about as far from the truth as you're likely to get. Like I stated in the previous post, the vast, vast majority of Nationalists always voted accordingly during the height of the Troubles.

It's also pretty ironic, given your stated support of Loyalist terrorists previously, defecate Keith, or get off the pot.

KeithAFC

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I've told you before on numerous occasions that you're outside the spectrum of people I'm interested in discussing these matters with so I don't know why you continue to try to get my attention.

If it wasn't just blatant hypocrisy, you would never get a reply from me.

Zombrex

karma_ wrote: »

I'll ask you something else, if so many Nationalists in the North supported the armed campaign, why then, throughout the Troubles did they flock to vote for the SDLP and not SF?

Because not many Nationalists supported the IRA campaign.

KeithAFC

realies wrote: »

The nationalist and catholic communities of the six counties were an oppressed community and had every right to rise up against there aggressors,What was the British Army and your community doing keith ? Murdering everyone that don't agree with you.

No worse than what the IRA was doing with Gerry and co running the show. I on the other hand can admit it was brutal and don't try and make a hierarchy of victims like Bloody Sunday.

It is all about opinions. When Republicans bring up terms such as cowardly when it comes to the British Army, it is just hypocrisy.

karma_

KeithAFC wrote: »

If it wasn't just blatant hypocrisy, you would never get a reply from me.

He's right, it's a complete waste of time even attempting to engage you in any kind of civilised level.

karma_

Zombrex wrote: »

Because not many Nationalists supported the IRA campaign.

Exactly.

However, that didn't prevent you from denouncing me retrospectively as a diehard Republican because I objected to the remarks about Bloody Sunday.

Chuck Stone

Zombrex wrote: »

Well you apparently didn't get the memo. It was in fact a "war", and didn't you know, calling something a "war" means you don't have to justify civilians deaths, they are "inevitable" in a "war" so I mean what can you do, they are just going to happen, right?

I didn't call it a war and if you look at my second post in this thread...

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Some of what they done hurt civilians who never wanted a part in the conflict so I, personally, wouldn't subscribe to the 'absolutely' stance. I'm horrified by the death of people who didn't sign up to be on one side or the other.

... you'll see that I condemn the killing of civilians no matter who did it.

Zombrex

karma_ wrote: »

Exactly.

However, that didn't prevent you from denouncing me retrospectively as a diehard Republican because I objected to the remarks about Bloody Sunday.

You appreciate that you totally missed the point of trendyvicar post, right?

trendyvicar

realies wrote: »

For a very long time the british government never recognized that it was in fact a war and tried unsuccessfully to put it across that it was a few bad paddies who had no support at all.Even now they wont open there files on the dublin bombings or Pat finucane,Don't know why as we the people who lived there through it wont be a bit surprised by there acts of killings.

They'd secretly declared war on Pat Finucane had they?

KeithAFC

karma_ wrote: »

He's right, it's a complete waste of time even attempting to engage you in any kind of civilised level.

If you can't win the argument, just throw the old "Oh I can't debate with you". Supporters of the PIRA campaign trying to lecture the opposite side.

Chuck Stone

karma_ wrote: »

He's right, it's a complete waste of time even attempting to engage you in any kind of civilised level.

It baffles me that seemingly intelligent people continue to engage tbh.

Zombrex

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I didn't call it a war and if you look at my second post in this thread...

... you'll see that I condemn the killing of civilians no matter who did it.

Have you condemned the IRA for doing the killing of the civilians?

Chuck Stone

Zombrex wrote: »

Have you condemned the IRA for doing the killing of the civilians?

Yes, on occasion. What's your point?

karma_

Zombrex wrote: »

You appreciate that you totally missed the point of trendyvicar post, right?

I did not.

I know you're trying to say to Republicans that is it was a war, then surely...

However, Bloody Sunday is a touchy subject in Derry to this day, and I will not tolerate revulsion to the events of that day described as 'ranting and raving'.

The analogy is also poor, the context of that day had little to do with an armed conflict, it was a protest march that was brutally attacked by the military.

By Jan '72, there had been some Republican violence, mostly the stickies, but the greatest threat came from the Loyalists and the security forces themselves. What would then become the 'Troubles' after this point, bore little similarity to what preceded it, so to answer your question, I certainly didn't miss the point.

KeithAFC

karma_ wrote: »

I did not.

I know you're trying to say to Republicans that is it was a war, then surely...

However, Bloody Sunday is a touchy subject in Derry to this day, and I will not tolerate revulsion to the events of that day described as 'ranting and raving'.

The analogy is also poor, the context of that day had little to do with an armed conflict, it was a protest march that was brutally attacked by the military.

By Jan '72, there had been some Republican violence, mostly the stickies, but the greatest threat came from the Loyalists and the security forces themselves. What would then become the 'Troubles' after this point, bore little similarity to what preceded it, so to answer your question, I certainly didn't miss the point.

6 February 1971: A British soldier on security duties, Gunner Robert Curtis, was killed by Billy Reid in a gun battle in North Belfast. Curtis was the first British soldier to die in Ireland since the 1920s. IRA volunteer James Saunders (21) was shot dead in a shootout with the British Army in the Bone area of Belfast and the British Army shot dead a Catholic civilian. Eight British soldiers and five civilians were also injured in various gun battles around Belfast.[8][9]
9 February 1971: An IRA landmine killed five men near a BBC transmitter on Brougher Mountain in County Tyrone. Two of the dead were BBC engineers, the other three were construction workers. It was believed their vehicle was mistaken for a British Army landrover. British mobile patrols frequently inspected the transmitter.[10][11]
15 February 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by an IRA sniper while taking part in a mobile-patrol in the Ardoyne area of Belfast. Two British Army scout cars came under sniper fire and had a bomb thrown at them. The soldier was shot in the head.[12][13]
26 February 1971: Two RUC officers who were attached to the Special Patrol Group (RUC) were killed in a gun battle with the IRA in the Ardoyne area of Belfast.[10][14]
8 March 1971: IRA volunteer Charles Hughes (26) was shot dead by the Official IRA in the Lower Falls area of Belfast. This was part of an ongoing dispute between the IRA and the OIRA.[12] In response the IRA shot and seriously injured a member of the OIRA.[15]
10 March 1971: The IRA kidnapped three off-duty Scottish soldiers in Belfast and brought them to a mountain road outside the city, lined them up, and shot each of them in the head. They were the first off-duty soldiers to be killed in the conflict.[16][17]
21 April 1971: The Royal Navy survey launch Stork, attached to HMS Hecate, was towed to open seas and sunk by an IRA unit in Baltimore, Republic of Ireland.[18]
15 May 1971: IRA volunteer Billy Reid (32) was killed during a gun battle between the IRA and the British Army on Academy Street, Belfast. Two British soldiers were wounded in the incident.[12][19]
25 May 1971: A bomb was thrown into Springfield Road British Army/RUC base in Belfast, killing army Sergeant Michael Willetts as he shielded civilians from the blast with his body. He was posthumously awarded the George Cross. Seven RUC officers, two British soldiers and 18 civilians were injured.[12][20]
12 July 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by an IRA sniper at a British Observation post on Northumberland Street in Belfast. The IRA claimed his death was in retaliation for the killings of two civilians in Derry by the British Army the previous week.[12][21]
14 July 1971: A British soldier was shot dead in an IRA ambush on a mobile-patrol in the Andersonstown area of Belfast. Three IRA gunmen using automatic weapons fired at least 35 shots at the patrol.[12][22]
8 August 1971: A British soldier was shot dead in an IRA sniper attack while on foot-patrol in the Ardoyne area of Belfast. The IRA said he was shot in retaliation for the shooting dead of a civilian by the British Army the day before on the Springfield Road.[12][23]
9 August 1971: 343 suspects were detained as internment was introduced. In the following two days 17 people were killed in gun battles between the IRA and British Army. The IRA killed one British soldier and one UDR soldier while the British Army shot dead one IRA volunteer, Patrick McAdorey (24) and 14 civilians. Between 1971 and 1975, 1,981 people were interned; 1,874 were Catholic/republican, while only 107 were Protestant/loyalist.[10]
9 August 1971: A UDR soldier was killed in a joined Provisional and Official IRA ambush in Clady, Tyrone.[24]
11 August 1971: IRA volunteer Seamus Simpson (21) was shot dead by the British Army while carrying out a bomb attack on their patrol in the Andersonstown area of Belfast.[12]
16 August 1971: The commander of the Provisionals' Belfast Brigade, Joe Cahill, gave a press conference claiming only 30 IRA volunteers had been interned.[10][25]
18 August 1971: IRA volunteer Eamon Lafferty (20) was shot dead during a gun battle between the IRA and the British Army in the Creggan area of Derry City.[12]
23 August 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by an IRA sniper on Flax Street in the Ardoyne area of Belfast. The soldier was shot in the head as he exited a British armoured vehicle.[12][26] Another British soldier from the same regiment was shot dead by an IRA sniper in Ardoyne during a gun attack on an observation post. He had been shot in the mouth. The Daily Express published a picture of the dead soldier, George Crozier, on its front page the next day.[27]
25 August 1971: A civilian was killed when the IRA bombed the NIES office on Malone Road in Belfast. An inadequate warning was given.[12]
29 August 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by an IRA sniper near Crossmaglen, County Armagh. The soldier was travelling in a British patrol consisting of two armoured vehicles when they accidentally crossed the border into County Monaghan. When attempting to turn back angry locals blocked their way and set one of the vehicles on fire. After eventually managing to get back across the border the patrol had to stop to change a damaged wheel. While this was happening a six man unit from the IRA's Monaghan Brigade arrived on the scene and took up sniping positions in nearby fields. One soldiers was killed after being shot in the neck and another injured when he was struck in the shoulder.[12][28]
31 August 1971: A British soldier was killed when he was shot by an IRA sniper in Stockmans Lane in the Andersonstown area of Belfast. A single shot was fired by a sniper which passed through the shoulder strap of another soldiers flak-jacket before hitting the other soldier in the head.[12][29]
3 September 1971: A UDR soldier was shot dead when an IRA unit attacked Kilawley British Army base in County Fermanagh.[12][29]
9 September 1971: A British Army bomb-disposal expert was killed attempting to defuse an IRA bomb in Drumankelly, County Antrim.[12]
14 September 1971: A British soldier was shot dead during an IRA attack on a British Army mobile-patrol in Edendork, County Tyrone.[12]
15 September 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by the IRA in the grounds of Victoria Hospital in Belfast.[12]
17 September 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by an IRA sniper while on foot-patrol in the Ardoyne area of Belfast.[12]
18 September 1971: An RUC officer was shot dead in an IRA gun attack on his foot-patrol in Strabane, County Tyrone.[12]
23 September 1971: A patrol boat belonging to the Northern Ireland Fishery Conservancy Board was bombed and wrecked by an IRA unit at Derrynver, Lough Neagh.[30]
1 October 1971: A British soldier was shot dead in an IRA gun-attack on a British Army foot-patrol in the Ardoyne area of Belfast.[12]
2 October 1971: IRA volunteer Terence McDermott (19) died after the bomb he was transporting exploded accidentally outside Lisburn.[12]
11 October 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by the IRA while on foot-patrol on the Letterkenny Road in Derry.[12]
15 October 1971: Two RUC officers were shot dead when an IRA unit attacked their patrol car on the Woodvale Road in Belfast.[12]
16 October 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by the IRA during riots in the Bogside area of Derry.[12]
17 October 1971: Two British soldiers were killed when their armoured-mobile-patrol was caught in an IRA sniper ambush in Belfast.[12]
23 October 1971: Two unarmed female IRA volunteers, Maura Meehan (30) and Dorothy Maguire (19), were shot dead by the British Army in the Lower Falls area of Belfast.[12]
24 October 1971: IRA volunteer Martin Forsythe (19) was shot dead by undercover RUC officers during a bomb attack in Donegall Place, Belfast.[12]
27 October 1971: Two British soldiers were killed when the IRA bombed Rosemount British Army base in Derry.[12]
27 October 1971: An RUC officer was shot dead by an IRA sniper while on patrol near Toome, County Antrim.[12]
27 October 1971: A British soldier was killed when a British Army armoured personnel carrier struck an IRA landmine in Kinawley, County Fermanagh.[12]
29 October 1971: An RUC officer was killed when the IRA bombed the RUC base on Antrim Road in Belfast.[12]
30 October 1971: A British soldier was killed when the IRA bombed a British Army Observation Post on the corner of Cupar Street in Belfast.[12]
31 October 1971: A British soldier was killed in an IRA sniper attack on his patrol in Stockmans Lane, Belfast.[12]
1 November 1971: Two RUC officers were shot dead by an IRA unit while investigating a robbery at Avoca Shopping Centre in Belfast.[12]
2 November 1971: Three civilians were killed when the IRA bombed the Ormeau Road RUC base. The three were drinking in the Red Lion bar which is next-door to the base.[12]
4 November 1971: A British soldier was killed in an IRA sniper attack on Henry Taggart British Army base in Ballymurphy, Belfast.[12]
7 November 1971: A British soldier was shot dead in an IRA drive-by attack in Lurgan, County Armagh.[12]
9 November 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by an IRA sniper on Foyle Road in Derry City.[12]
11 November 1971: Two RUC officers were shot dead by the IRA in Belfast. They had left the base to go into a shop on the street behind it when they were ambushed by an IRA unit.[12]
18 November 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by the IRA while guarding a bus depot in the Short Strand area of Belfast.[12]
24 November 1971: A civilian was killed in the crossfire during an IRA attack on a British Army base in Strabane.[12]
24 November 1971: A British Army bomb disposal expert was killed attempting to defuse a car-bomb in Lurgan, County Armagh.[12]
27 November 1971: Two Customs Officials were killed when IRA snipers attacked Killeen Customs Post near Newry, County Armagh. The soldiers guarding the post were the intended targets.[12]
27 November 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by an IRA sniper while on foot-patrol in the Falls area of Belfast.[12]
29 November 1971: An off-duty British soldier was shot dead by the IRA near Crossmaglen, County Armagh.[12]
6 December 1971: A civilian was killed in an IRA bomb attack in Belfast. The bomb destroyed a business premises. The damage resulted in one of the walls collapsing in on top of the building next door, crushing a civilian.[12]
7 December 1971: A UDR soldier was shot dead by the IRA in Curlagh, County Tyrone.[12]
8 December 1971: Two British soldiers were killed in separate IRA gun attacks in Belfast.[12]
10 December 1971: A UDR soldier and an ex-soldier were killed when their car was attacked by an IRA unit near Clady. County Tyrone.[12]
11 December 1971: A bomb attack on a furniture shop on the Shankill Road in Belfast killed four Protestant civilians, including two children.[12] No organisation claimed responsibility, but there was speculation that it may have been planted by the IRA in retaliation for the McGurk's Bar bombing of 4 December.[31]
16 December 1971: A British soldier was shot dead by an IRA sniper in the Lower Falls area of Belfast.[12]
18 December 1971: IRA volunteers James Sheridan (20), John Bateson (19) and Martin Lee (19) died in Magherafelt, County Londonderry, when the bomb they were transporting exploded prematurely.[10]
21 December 1971: A Catholic pub-owner was killed when he picked up and attempted to remove a bomb that had been planted in his pub on Lisburn Road, Belfast. Although Catholic-owned pubs were usually targeted by loyalists, the Sutton database lists the IRA as responsible.[12]
21 December 1971: Unarmed IRA volunteer Gerald McDade (23) was shot after being captured by the British Army in the Ardoyne area of Belfast.[12]
29 December 1971: A British soldier was shot dead in an IRA gun attack on a foot-patrol in the Brandywell area of Derry City.[12]
31 December 1971: IRA volunteer Jack McCabe (55) was killed when a bomb he was assembling exploded accidentally in Santry, Dublin.[12]

Only some Republican violence? Lets stick to reality please.

K-9

karma_ wrote: »

I did not.

I know you're trying to say to Republicans that is it was a war, then surely...

However, Bloody Sunday is a touchy subject in Derry to this day, and I will not tolerate revulsion to the events of that day described as 'ranting and raving'.

The analogy is also poor, the context of that day had little to do with an armed conflict, it was a protest march that was brutally attacked by the military.

By Jan '72, there had been some Republican violence, mostly the stickies, but the greatest threat came from the Loyalists and the security forces themselves. What would then become the 'Troubles' after this point, bore little similarity to what preceded it, so to answer your question, I certainly didn't miss the point.

She picked a very poor example alright, maybe something like Loughgall would be a better example?

Also lads, for people who don't entertain Keith, there's always a hell of a lot of replies to him.

Chuck Stone

K-9 wrote: »

Also lads, for people who don't entertain Keith, there's always a hell of a lot of replies to him.

Not from me K-9.

karma_

K-9 wrote: »

She picked a very poor example alright, maybe something like Loughgall would be a better example?

Also lads, for people who don't entertain Keith, there's always a hell of a lot of replies to him.

Yes, Loughgall or Edlingham Street would have been far better examples, there are many better ones she could have used.

I'm actually sorry I even entered the thread now, my only objection was about Bloody Sunday.

Sunnyisland

Zombrex wrote: »

Surely the British government would be eager to not have to explain or justify killing lots and lots of civilians. I mean the IRA seem pretty happy with this, they just called it a "war" and they can say that civilian deaths were just an inevitable consequence of it being I would have thought the British government would jump at the chance to wash their hands clean of all the civilian blood as the IRA did.

The British preferred to call the everyday bombings, gunfights, murders, military funerals,thousand of troops and armoured cars on the streets “the Troubles”. It might look like a war, but to them that would be admitting that they have there own vietnam and cant go around preaching to the world what a great nation they are were.

Zombrex wrote: »

Because not many Nationalists supported the IRA campaign.

The P.IRA had a very large & continuous amount of support through out the Island of Ireland,Without it they couldn't have mounted such a long campaign.

trendy vicar wrote: »

They'd secretly declared war on Pat Finucane had they?

Yes they did Sir John Stevens, head of London's Metropolitan Police has found out enough to confirm what many nationalists have long maintained: that the British army worked with death squads in Northern Ireland. “Collusion,” he says, “is evidenced in many ways The unlawful involvement of agents in murder implies that the security forces sanction killing etc etc.

Sunnyisland

K-9 wrote: »

She picked a very poor example alright, maybe something like Loughgall would be a better example?

Also lads, for people who don't entertain Keith, there's always a hell of a lot of replies to him.

KeithAFC brings out the red green in me

KeithAFC

realies wrote: »

KeithAFC brings out the red green in me

I don't mean to.

Its an interesting discussion. I think neither side will fully agree on the Troubles and the context of it.

Denerick

The PIRA killed people because the nationalist community was collaborating and even fraternising with the British army following the battle of the bogside and the arrival of British army 'mediators'. The Irish Republican movement, inspired by a fiery doctrine of hate that verges on fascism, then set about killing, maiming and butchering their way throughout the northern statelet.

Its original excuse is Ulster presbyterian extremism and intransigence. A fair excuse to offer, but one which ultimately fails when examined historically. The Irish Republican movement exploited this grievance and used it for an armed campaign. It is a disgusting virus in Irish history and we should all be glad that the PIRA were eventually defeated by the twin forces of reason and mass disgust.

The fact that people continue to make excuses for this twisted and contorted ideology of bloodshed is an insult to the thousands of Irishmen and women on both sides of the community who did all they could to bring a semblance of order and cohesion to the madness inflicted by the gangsters of a Catholic or Protestant hue.

irishh_bob

Denerick wrote: »

The PIRA killed people because the nationalist community was collaborating and even fraternising with the British army following the battle of the bogside and the arrival of British army 'mediators'. The Irish Republican movement, inspired by a fiery doctrine of hate that verges on fascism, then set about killing, maiming and butchering their way throughout the northern statelet.

Its original excuse is Ulster presbyterian extremism and intransigence. A fair excuse to offer, but one which ultimately fails when examined historically. The Irish Republican movement exploited this grievance and used it for an armed campaign. It is a disgusting virus in Irish history and we should all be glad that the PIRA were eventually defeated by the twin forces of reason and mass disgust.

your worse than keith , at least he doesnt disown his own

Denerick

irishh_bob wrote: »

your worse than keith , at least he doesnt disown his own

Oh dear, I think I might have slipped on my own vomit.

History doesn't look kindly on murderers or fascists. Be they Nationalist or Unionist.