UFC 140 - Jones vs. Machida - 10th Dec. Spoilers inside

pablohoney87

Tubbs4 wrote: »

Matt hughes gave up an arm bar on royce gracie as royce would not tap. Hughes did not want to break his arm so he just pounded him out.
If fighters like Nog will not tap and Mir gives up hold it be a sad day for MMA.
As lots of submissions will be removed from the sport leading to less ways fir a fighter to win.
While i hate to see limbs being broken, I hate to see less skill - submissions in MMA.

What Matt Hughes says in public carries absolutely no weight to me and a lot of others. Watch that fight. He tried to break Royces arm. His arm slid out of position and bent the right way and Matt thought it was broken so he let go. Nothing to with him not wanting to break the arm. (My theory anyway but its what it looked like)
What submissions exactly are gonna be removed from the sport exaxtly

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

My issue is that the break was in a deliberate way, not freakish. That the fighter was forced to inflict such an injury to get a win. That is what I think needs real looking at.

It's worth noting Bren that Nog is 1 of the best submission artists in MMA ever and Mir had just been rocked, i think the ref wrongly thought he was ok and could escape, Nog looked so calm and not in pain-if this was a lesser Fighter then i'm sure the fight would have been stopped quicker.

If there is a debate here it should be about the ref's mistake rather than the rules as the rules like in most sports are quite clear.

Shazbot

cowzerp wrote: »

If there is a debate here it should be about the ref's mistake rather than the rules as the rules like in most sports are quite clear.

Interesting point, would you care to clarify what mistake you think the ref made? I thought there was nothing wrong with the refereeing in the fight.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

It's worth noting Bren that Nog is 1 of the best submission artists in MMA ever and Mir had just been rocked, i think the ref wrongly thought he was ok and could escape, Nog looked so calm and not in pain-if this was a lesser Fighter then i'm sure the fight would have been stopped quicker.

If there is a debate here it should be about the ref's mistake rather than the rules as the rules like in most sports are quite clear.

Thing is that I believe there is not a perfect solution. A fighter may still break an arm if he wants to. No mercy, compassion etc. Mir chose to break that arm because Nog would not submit. No way to 100 percent prevent even a deliberate break, as in, where a fighter knows he is going to break a limb.

pablohoney87

Shazbot wrote: »

Interesting point, would you care to clarify what mistake you think the ref made? I thought there was nothing wrong with the refereeing in the fight.

Its a referees job to step in when a fighter isnt defending himself. This applies to submissions as well as strikes.

walshb

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Its a referees job to step in when a fighter isnt defending himself. This applies to submissions as well as strikes.

Or refuses to defend himself....

pablohoney87

walshb wrote: »

Or refuses to defend himself....

On that note.
Are you a boxer walshb or just a boxing fan?
Not a high and mighty question about your experience just asking if you were in a boxing match where youre opponent wasnt defending himself but the referee wasnt stopping it would you stop punching?

walshb

pablohoney87 wrote: »

On that note.
Are you a boxer walshb or just a boxing fan?
Not a high and mighty question about your experience just asking if you were in a boxing match where youre opponent wasnt defending himself but the referee wasnt stopping it would you stop punching?

Never been in that position. Many fighters thru history have looked to a ref to stop a bout.

Anyway,

in MMA is a fighter allowed to deliberately break a limb without giving his foe the opportunity to submit?

I mean, can he go out, grab a limb and break it in a flash, should that scenario present itself?

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Never been in that position. Many fighters thru history have looked to a ref to stop a bout.

Anyway,

in MMA is a fighter allowed to break a limb without giving his foe the opportunity to submit?

He had about 10 seconds to submit and chose not too, the pressure builds up and usually pain will increase to a level where your brain just says stop and you either tap verbally or with your hand. This was an isolated incident just like in Boxing where occasionally ya get a lad getting slaughtered and no 1 prevents it, ie the corner or ref.

pablohoney87

walshb wrote: »

in MMA is a fighter allowed to deliberately break a limb without giving his foe the opportunity to submit?

Not really. The tensile strength of a bone is normally enough for the opportunity to tap. I found myself cringing at quite a few sumbissions before a break. If I have time to do that the fighter had time to tap.
Only situations are heel hooks and freak occurances where the fighter may not have had the opportunity to tap.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

He had about 10 seconds to submit and chose not too, the pressure builds up and usually pain will increase to a level where your brain just says stop and you either tap verbally or with your hand. This was an isolated incident just like in Boxing where occasionally ya get a lad getting slaughtered and no 1 prevents it, ie the corner or ref.

That is my point. Fighters at times need protecting from themselves, just like in boxing. It really is that simple.
Although, difficult to implement.Also, this Mir guy openly says "tap or snap." So, he is someone who needs looking at. MMA is a combat sport, but I don't believe it should be allowed to have that kind of mentality.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

That is my point. Fighters at times need protecting from themselves, just like in boxing. It really is that simple.
Although, difficult to implement.

it's not difficult to implement, just sometimes the refs dont get it right like in all sports, only solution would be ban submissions and thats never going to be an option as there very important aspects of the sport.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

it's not difficult to implement, just sometimes the refs dont get it right like in all sports, only solution would be ban submissions and thats never going to be an option as there very important aspects of the sport.

But, some fighters may break the second they get the chance, not allowing the ref the chance to halt the bout. Now, this may be rare, but still can happen. These fighters are just baddies.

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

Theoretically I suppose one could say that not the ref, or fighters can 100 percent know if a limb will break until it actually does. That is why maybe rules need to be revisited. If a fighter won't tap because of reasons I gave then the ref should take over

It baffles me that you are getting so worked up about this yet you used to the the moderator of the Boxing forum. A sport where the aim is to beat your opponent with your fists until said opponent is battered to the ground and is unable to get back up.

Mir breaks Nog's arm and it's the end of the world, but Ivan Drago kills Apollo Creed in the ring and everything's hundy dory? Wont SOMEBODY think of the children?!

Fear Uladh

walshb wrote: »

But, some fighters may break the second they get the chance, not allowing the ref the chance to halt the bout. Now, this may be rare, but still can happen. These fighters are just baddies.

Did you actually watch the fight? Mir had the Kimura locked for quite some time and Nog refused to tap. What would you have done?

MrStuffins

cowzerp wrote: »

There would be 1 or 2 lads who may have opposing view of Walshb over there but they would not have a problem with him, without some debate forums like this don't tend to work so it's all good.

Yeah. Sorry Walsh I wasn't actually having a go. But the times i'm over there I seem to see a lot of people having a go at you for nesxt to no reason. The times i've seen people have a go at you it's been completely unwarrented and it's a fault of THEIRS.

Sorry if you took my comment to mean something else. Your posts on boxing tend to be the ones which make sense and you tend to get the backlash from the fanboys of those you oppose (in my observation)

MrStuffins

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Its a referees job to step in when a fighter isnt defending himself. This applies to submissions as well as strikes.

This is true. However, i wouldn't call it a "mistake! on the referee's part this time.

After all, this is Big Nog we're talking about. A man who is almost imfamous for his ability to get caught in a submission, keep calm, ride it out and escape before making a comback of Lazarus proportions. I think the referee in this case had every indicaion to believe that Nog was fully aware of what was going on, even if Nog was unaware.

walshb

In a nutshell: If I were an MMA fan, and the powers that be had a policy that
tap or snap is allowed, then I as a fan would be quite disappointed. I think it lessens, and damages the reputation of the sport, which isn't all that good to begin with.

I believe whatever happens, that it needs to be looked at. No perfect answer, but look at it and try to prevent it. For starters, guys like Mir, who openly admit tor breaking because a foe won't tap, need to be looked at.

pablohoney87

MrStuffins wrote: »

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Its a referees job to step in when a fighter isnt defending himself. This applies to submissions as well as strikes.

This is true. However, i wouldn't call it a "mistake! on the referee's part this time.

After all, this is Big Nog we're talking about. A man who is almost imfamous for his ability to get caught in a submission, keep calm, ride it out and escape before making a comback of Lazarus proportions. I think the referee in this case had every indicaion to believe that Nog was fully aware of what was going on, even if Nog was unaware.

Valid point. i don't think theres really any debate in what happened. it was a freak occurance. but placing any blame on mir is just silly.

walshb

MrStuffins wrote: »

It baffles me that you are getting so worked up about this yet you used to the the moderator of the Boxing forum. A sport where the aim is to beat your opponent with your fists until said opponent is battered to the ground and is unable to get back up.

Mir breaks Nog's arm and it's the end of the world, but Ivan Drago kills Apollo Creed in the ring and everything's hundy dory? Wont SOMEBODY think of the children?!

Worked up?

Please read my posts. I clearly said boxing is littered with examples of barbarity and problems that need to be addressed.

cowzerp

it's not tap or snap, thats a saying-the ref has the power and authority to stop it befpre that

I've seen thousands of submissions and a handfull of breaks all in.

walshb

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Valid point. i don't think theres really any debate in what happened. it was a freak occurance. but placing any blame on mir is just silly.

Simple: Did Mir 'deliberately' snap the guys arm? If so, that is not freakish, or accidental.

MrStuffins

I think your idea of leaving it to the referee's discretion as to whether a guy should tap or not is just asking for trouble. I HAVE seen it happen where a referee will step in before damage is done (An example if Filho v Sonnen I) and there was nothing but trouble afterwards as Sonnen had never submitted.

MMA is a brutal sport. IF we start stopping people mid-submission then where does it stop? You can't punch a guy in the face after you've realised his nose is broken? If he's cut over the right eye then you're not allowed strike that eye for fear the cut will get bigger? If a fighter comes to the cage with a slightly injured knee you have to stay away from said knee?

These guys are not children, it's a fight sport.

pablohoney87

walshb wrote: »

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Valid point. i don't think theres really any debate in what happened. it was a freak occurance. but placing any blame on mir is just silly.

Simple: Did Mir 'deliberately' snap the guys arm? If so, that is not freakish, or accidental.

what was his alternative?

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

Worked up?

Please read my posts. I clearly said boxing is littered with examples of barbarity and problems that need to be addressed.

Let's not get off topic but the language in your posts and the style of it's delivery lead me to believe you are/were a little worked up in this thread. Of course, perhaps i'm wrong.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

it's not tap or snap, thats a saying-the ref has the power and authority to stop it befpre that

I've seen thousands of submissions and a handfull of breaks all in.

I know the ref does have the power to interven; but do the powers in MMA also allow the tap or snap, and if the ref does not try to prevent it, then nobody faces sanctions? I would like to see it become a referees duty and obligation to prevent these incidents.

Mir to me deliberately snapped. It was not a freak accident.

walshb

MrStuffins wrote: »

Let's not get off topic but the language in your posts and the style of it's delivery lead me to believe you are/were a little worked up in this thread. Of course, perhaps i'm wrong.

Well, it was you who had a patronising tone when you said "I hadn't a clue."

I was only debating and pointing out suggestions etc. Could be argued that you got worked up and resorted to that kind of reply.

I have no issue with you, but let us keep it mature and respectful.

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

I know the ref does have the power to interven; but do the powers in MMA also allow the tap or snap, and if the ref does not try to prevent it, then nobody faces sanctions? I would like to see it become a referees duty and obligation to prevent these incidents.

Mir to me deliberately snapped. It was not a freak accident.

So, you want to see the fighter face sanctions?

So you think if a fighter deliberately breaks another fighters nose with strikes he should face sanctions? Let's imagine in the post fight interview he said "My opponent was right in front of me, his nose was right there to be hit and I knew I could break it, so I broke it". Do you think he should face sanctions?

pablohoney87

Walshb i realise you're addressing several points and probably missed my question.
What exactly was mirs alternative here?

walshb

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Walshb i realise you're addressing several points and probably missed my question.
What exactly was mirs alternative here?

This is my point/suggestion. If in MMA a fighter is left with no alternative but to inflict that type of injury, then this needs addressing. I don't have the exact answer, but I would hope people can come together to try and prevent this from ever happening. Not perfect, but try.

chickendinner

Lets gets some sense back into this thread
Article Below



Dean Hoped Nogueira Would Submit Before Arm Broke


Referee Herb Dean knew Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira was in serious trouble.

Frank Mir had locked up a deep kimura during their bout Saturday at UFC 140, but Nogueira would not submit. Mir kept cranking, and Nogueira’s arm began to climb up his own back.

“In my mind, I was hoping that he would tap,” Dean told the Sherdog Radio Network’s “It’s Time!” show with Bruce Buffer. “Like, ‘Please, please make this easy for me. That looks like it’s on.’ I definitely [had a] heightened awareness at that time. I was really focused on that arm. But that’s how Antonio became who he is -- he didn’t get there by giving up. That guy’s done things that everyone thought was impossible time and time again because he never gives up.”

Technically Nogueira did tap, but that was after his humerus had already snapped.

“I stopped it because I saw the arm break,” Dean said. “The tap came after. I don’t stop it when I believe it’s locked on or even if I believe the guy’s in jeopardy because I don’t know what that person can take. I don’t know what their limits are, but if I see an injury that is too dangerous for the fight to continue, that’s when I’m going to stop the fight. Or if I see the fighter tap.”

It can be a tough situation for a referee when a fighter’s caught in a submission like Nogueira was. Dean explained that with professionals, it’s not his job to intervene when he thinks something could break. In amateur fights, though, the game is a little different.

“In amateurs we talk about stopping it before, and I’m not even sure how I feel about that exactly,” he said. “In amateurs we do stop them a little bit before we believe it’s totally locked out. At the end of the day, I don’t know when it’s going to break. I don’t know what that guy can take. So for a professional fight, that’s part of being a professional fighter is knowing how to look after yourself and knowing what you can and can’t take and knowing when it’s time to tap.”

Sometimes fighters submit too late, though. Dean has seen his share of injuries, and not everyone handles it like Nogueira did. He was in the cage once with a fighter who kept screaming in agony after having his arm dislocated, but Nogueira did the opposite.

“He was very calm,” Dean said. “He’s an exceptional person. Even during that, with coordinating with the physicians and him getting out of there, at some point he started taking an active role. ‘OK, Herb, I want you to help me up.’ He was pretty calm through it.”

walshb

MrStuffins wrote: »

So, you want to see the fighter face sanctions?

So you think if a fighter deliberately breaks another fighters nose with strikes he should face sanctions? Let's imagine in the post fight interview he said "My opponent was right in front of me, his nose was right there to be hit and I knew I could break it, so I broke it". Do you think he should face sanctions?

If one breaks a rule, yes, sanctions. Problem is, that there doesn't seem to be a clear rule if a fighter deliberately is deemed to have snapped a limb.

Again, if you read my posts I clearly have said that some pain and injury cannot be prevented. Nose breaking is one.

Reading the ref's comments I think backs my other point that implementation of a rule to prevent this is quite difficult.

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

This is my point/suggestion. If in MMA a fighter is left with no alternative but to inflict that type of injury, then this needs addressing. I don't have the exact answer, but I would hope people can come together to try and prevent this from ever happening. Not perfect, but try.

I completely disagree with you and think when you weigh up the amount of submission wins with the amountf of limb breaks due to submissions, it doesn't warrent a rule change and the current rules work fine.

Shazbot

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Its a referees job to step in when a fighter isnt defending himself. This applies to submissions as well as strikes.

I agree but it's a very difficult to criticize Herb Dean for what happened. I don't think he could foresee what would happen. Nog expressed no pain or discomfort until the arm had broken. Nog tried to defend, he rolled but was counter rolled. The time from counter roll to break was approximately 5 seconds. The time taken from Nog's arm being perpendicular to the mat (most peoples tapping point - the time at which the ref should have stopped it) to break was less than 2 seconds.

Kent Brockman

This isn't the 1st bone Mir has snapped and I often felt he went in far too hard and fast, not allowing time for the opponent to tap before the damage was done. But in this case Nog should have tapped but chose not to (for whatever dumb reason), so I guess he left Mir no choice.

I also remember Royce Gracie breaking a lads arm in the early Ufc even though he was tapping+verbal tap (as far as I remember). Ref didn't get in quick enough.

Palhares popped some guys knee after he tapped is another that comes to mind, and I'm sure there is tonnes of other examples out there.

I guess alot of it is down to the fighters, but it is a fight and they are trying to do maximum damage to their opponents within the rules.
No simple solution other that to tap when caught, and hope the ref gets in quick.

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

If one breaks a rule, yes, sanctions. Problem is, that there doesn't seem to be a clear rule if a fighter deliberately is deemed to have snapped a limb.

Well, you cant allow a move like an armbar but then disallow "deliberately" snapping limbs. The whole point of these submisions is to bring the fighter to the point where he knows he is in big trouble and he needs to submit before he gets hurt. You can't honestly expect a fighter to use an armbar, but ease off on it so he doesn't break anything. That defeats the whole purpose!

The Bored One

There's not really any way of regulating the fighters on this sucessfully without removing the techniques themselves. The whole point of submission techniques is that you submit rather than face the alternative, which in the case of joint locks will be that something is going to break or snap.
If a fighter is performing the technique correctly, then that is the direction the technique is heading in. The person on the receiving end has to make that choice to submit, if he chooses not to then its the ref's job to intervene before major damage occurs.
You cannot remove the fighters ability to go all the way with the technique, without making the technique useless. If there is no threat, there is no reason for a fighter to ever submit.

MrStuffins

The Bored One wrote: »

There's not really any way of regulating the fighters on this sucessfully without removing the techniques themselves. The whole point of submission techniques is that you submit rather than face the alternative, which in the case of joint locks will be that something is going to break or snap.
If a fighter is performing the technique correctly, then that is the direction the technique is heading in. The person on the receiving end has to make that choice to submit, if he chooses not to then its the ref's job to intervene before major damage occurs.
You cannot remove the fighters ability to go all the way with the technique, without making the technique useless. If there is no threat, there is no reason for a fighter to ever submit.

Exactly the point I was trying to make above, but way better put

walshb

The Bored One wrote: »

If a fighter is performing the technique correctly, then that is the direction the technique is heading in. The person on the receiving end has to make that choice to submit, if he chooses not to then its the ref's job to intervene before major damage occurs.
.

Exactly. Fighers sometimes need protecting from themselves. Again, very difficult to get this perfect.

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

Exactly. Fighers sometimes need protecting from themselves. Again, very difficult to get this perfect.

If a rule was implemented whereby a fighter was stopped due to getting into a bad position, nobody would even know who Big Nog was today. Most of his fights would've been stopped with him on the losing end way too prematurely.

The fight's not over til it's over. it's one of the things that makes the sport what it is!

The Bored One

walshb wrote: »

Exactly. Fighers sometimes need protecting from themselves. Again, very difficult to get this perfect.

In that scenario though, its the purpose of the ref to prevent it getting out of hand. The problem with joint locks is that when something does go wrong, its very very sudden. The contestants can look like things are occuring gradually, and the ref is watching and waiting for a the tap when one of the fighters moves or jerks in a way that causes damage. When it occurs that suddenly its almost impossible for the ref to intervene prior to damage.
With leg locks especially by the time most fighters realize that there's a danger of damage, then the damage is already done.
Even with the most vigilant of refs, the risk of damage will be there. And you can't remove the risk of damage without making the moves useless/

horsemeat

walshb wrote: »

I know the ref does have the power to interven; but do the powers in MMA also allow the tap or snap, and if the ref does not try to prevent it, then nobody faces sanctions? I would like to see it become a referees duty and obligation to prevent these incidents.

Mir to me deliberately snapped. It was not a freak accident.

This is obvious. There's no debate around it. It was intentional, vicious, disgusting, but then what should Mir have done? The winning and losing of a fight is worth a lot of money to a fighter, Frank stands to earn a couple of extra 100k in sub bonus,win bonus, future lucrative fights. While it's deplorable, it's part of the sport, Big Nog is around long enough to know that he had been had and should have tapped sooner. Pride comes before a fall they say. I don't condone Frank's behaviour, but I don't see what alternative he had.#

Off topic, I think heel hooks should be outlawed. Most disgusting move in MMA, genuine career ending sub.

The Bored One

Hmmmm. Slightly off-topic here but just occurred to me. If as coaches one of your fighters was matched to fight someone you know has a history of damaging opponents, how would you deal with? Just wondering if this is one of those issues where there's more unofficial consequences and regulation than official.

Ush1

pablohoney87 wrote: »

What Matt Hughes says in public carries absolutely no weight to me and a lot of others. Watch that fight. He tried to break Royces arm. His arm slid out of position and bent the right way and Matt thought it was broken so he let go. Nothing to with him not wanting to break the arm. (My theory anyway but its what it looked like)
What submissions exactly are gonna be removed from the sport exaxtly

It was popped but he knew Royce wouldn't tap. He said in an interview after he could hear the elbow popping and cracking but realised Royce was never gonna tap so switched to pounding him.

pablohoney87

Ush1 wrote: »

pablohoney87 wrote: »

What Matt Hughes says in public carries absolutely no weight to me and a lot of others. Watch that fight. He tried to break Royces arm. His arm slid out of position and bent the right way and Matt thought it was broken so he let go. Nothing to with him not wanting to break the arm. (My theory anyway but its what it looked like)
What submissions exactly are gonna be removed from the sport exaxtly

It was popped but he knew Royce wouldn't tap. He said in an interview after he could hear the elbow popping and cracking but realised Royce was never gonna tap so switched to pounding him.

And its my choice (and plenty others) to not believe everything Hughes says in an interview.

Ush1

pablohoney87 wrote: »

And its my choice (and plenty others) to not believe everything Hughes says in an interview.

That's fair enough but I'm agreeing with what you're saying and so is Matt Hughes, he was trying to break Royces arm no doubt.

Arawn

If you step into the cage you're trying to hurt your opponent, either by beating them so badly you ko them, ref has to pull you off them or putting them in so much pain they've to submit or have something broken.

Did frank mean to snap Big nogs arm?? Yes, that is the point of the technique.
Should a BJJ black belt of tapped out from a move he's been in probably thousands of times in training? Yes

Jimmy Bottlehead

At the end of the day, Nog made the decision not to tap.

If he had tapped, Mir would have let go.

Since he refused to tap, Mir had no choice under the circumstances and so had to work the hold even tighter, causing the snap.

loremolis

Just to change the topic slightly.

I previously mentioned in this thread that I queried Paddypower in relation to the official decision in the Mir/Nog fight.

While Mir did break his arm, the official decision and the decision announced at the end of the fight was that Mir had won by TKO.

Paddypower paid out on a submission win for Mir.

I sent them a copy of the official decision and asked them to watch the announced decision at the end of the fight and to honor my bet.

Their response was that they are not changing their minds and they haven't commented the info I sent them.

I expected more from them to be honest.

Shazbot

loremolis wrote: »

Just to change the topic slightly.

I previously mentioned in this thread that I queried Paddypower in relation to the official decision in the Mir/Nog fight.

While Mir did break his arm, the official decision and the decision announced at the end of the fight was that Mir had won by TKO.

Paddypower paid out on a submission win for Mir.

I sent them a copy of the official decision and asked them to watch the announced decision at the end of the fight and to honor my bet.

Their response was that they are not changing their minds and they haven't commented the info I sent them.

I expected more from them to be honest.

I'm absolutely stunned that people are considering calling this a TKO. It was a technical submission. Therefore it's a submission win. You have no grounds to stand on claiming TKO. Every credible news website says a round 1 submission victory for Mir. Even ufc.com has it down as a submission for Mir (here). On top of that, Mir was given submission of the night. I really don't see the confusion.

I know Buffer said "winner by TKO" but I'd say that was a mistake. There have been loads of mistakes during the post fight announcement.