UFC 140 - Jones vs. Machida - 10th Dec. Spoilers inside

The Bored One · 20-12-2011 3:00pm

walshb wrote: »

Exactly. Fighers sometimes need protecting from themselves. Again, very difficult to get this perfect.

In that scenario though, its the purpose of the ref to prevent it getting out of hand. The problem with joint locks is that when something does go wrong, its very very sudden. The contestants can look like things are occuring gradually, and the ref is watching and waiting for a the tap when one of the fighters moves or jerks in a way that causes damage. When it occurs that suddenly its almost impossible for the ref to intervene prior to damage.
With leg locks especially by the time most fighters realize that there's a danger of damage, then the damage is already done.
Even with the most vigilant of refs, the risk of damage will be there. And you can't remove the risk of damage without making the moves useless/

horsemeat · 20-12-2011 3:02pm

walshb wrote: »

I know the ref does have the power to interven; but do the powers in MMA also allow the tap or snap, and if the ref does not try to prevent it, then nobody faces sanctions? I would like to see it become a referees duty and obligation to prevent these incidents.

Mir to me deliberately snapped. It was not a freak accident.

This is obvious. There's no debate around it. It was intentional, vicious, disgusting, but then what should Mir have done? The winning and losing of a fight is worth a lot of money to a fighter, Frank stands to earn a couple of extra 100k in sub bonus,win bonus, future lucrative fights. While it's deplorable, it's part of the sport, Big Nog is around long enough to know that he had been had and should have tapped sooner. Pride comes before a fall they say. I don't condone Frank's behaviour, but I don't see what alternative he had.#

Off topic, I think heel hooks should be outlawed. Most disgusting move in MMA, genuine career ending sub.

The Bored One · 20-12-2011 3:19pm

Hmmmm. Slightly off-topic here but just occurred to me. If as coaches one of your fighters was matched to fight someone you know has a history of damaging opponents, how would you deal with? Just wondering if this is one of those issues where there's more unofficial consequences and regulation than official.

Ush1 · 20-12-2011 3:24pm

pablohoney87 wrote: »

What Matt Hughes says in public carries absolutely no weight to me and a lot of others. Watch that fight. He tried to break Royces arm. His arm slid out of position and bent the right way and Matt thought it was broken so he let go. Nothing to with him not wanting to break the arm. (My theory anyway but its what it looked like)
What submissions exactly are gonna be removed from the sport exaxtly

It was popped but he knew Royce wouldn't tap. He said in an interview after he could hear the elbow popping and cracking but realised Royce was never gonna tap so switched to pounding him.

pablohoney87 · 20-12-2011 4:05pm

Ush1 wrote: »

pablohoney87 wrote: »

What Matt Hughes says in public carries absolutely no weight to me and a lot of others. Watch that fight. He tried to break Royces arm. His arm slid out of position and bent the right way and Matt thought it was broken so he let go. Nothing to with him not wanting to break the arm. (My theory anyway but its what it looked like)
What submissions exactly are gonna be removed from the sport exaxtly

It was popped but he knew Royce wouldn't tap. He said in an interview after he could hear the elbow popping and cracking but realised Royce was never gonna tap so switched to pounding him.

And its my choice (and plenty others) to not believe everything Hughes says in an interview.

Ush1 · 20-12-2011 4:30pm

pablohoney87 wrote: »

And its my choice (and plenty others) to not believe everything Hughes says in an interview.

That's fair enough but I'm agreeing with what you're saying and so is Matt Hughes, he was trying to break Royces arm no doubt.

Arawn · 20-12-2011 4:59pm

If you step into the cage you're trying to hurt your opponent, either by beating them so badly you ko them, ref has to pull you off them or putting them in so much pain they've to submit or have something broken.

Did frank mean to snap Big nogs arm?? Yes, that is the point of the technique.
Should a BJJ black belt of tapped out from a move he's been in probably thousands of times in training? Yes

Jimmy Bottlehead · 20-12-2011 6:13pm

At the end of the day, Nog made the decision not to tap.

If he had tapped, Mir would have let go.

Since he refused to tap, Mir had no choice under the circumstances and so had to work the hold even tighter, causing the snap.

loremolis · 22-12-2011 5:49am

Just to change the topic slightly.

I previously mentioned in this thread that I queried Paddypower in relation to the official decision in the Mir/Nog fight.

While Mir did break his arm, the official decision and the decision announced at the end of the fight was that Mir had won by TKO.

Paddypower paid out on a submission win for Mir.

I sent them a copy of the official decision and asked them to watch the announced decision at the end of the fight and to honor my bet.

Their response was that they are not changing their minds and they haven't commented the info I sent them.

I expected more from them to be honest.

Shazbot · 22-12-2011 10:44am

loremolis wrote: »

Just to change the topic slightly.

I previously mentioned in this thread that I queried Paddypower in relation to the official decision in the Mir/Nog fight.

While Mir did break his arm, the official decision and the decision announced at the end of the fight was that Mir had won by TKO.

Paddypower paid out on a submission win for Mir.

I sent them a copy of the official decision and asked them to watch the announced decision at the end of the fight and to honor my bet.

Their response was that they are not changing their minds and they haven't commented the info I sent them.

I expected more from them to be honest.

I'm absolutely stunned that people are considering calling this a TKO. It was a technical submission. Therefore it's a submission win. You have no grounds to stand on claiming TKO. Every credible news website says a round 1 submission victory for Mir. Even ufc.com has it down as a submission for Mir (here). On top of that, Mir was given submission of the night. I really don't see the confusion.

I know Buffer said "winner by TKO" but I'd say that was a mistake. There have been loads of mistakes during the post fight announcement.

MMAIRELANDFAN · 22-12-2011 10:45am

Shazbot wrote: »

I'm absolutely stunned that people are considering calling this a TKO. It was a technical submission. Therefore it's a submission win. You have no grounds to stand on claiming TKO. Every credible news website says a round 1 submission victory for Mir. Even ufc.com has it down as a submission for Mir (here). On top of that, Mir was given submission of the night. I really don't see the confusion.

Where did you hear it was a TKO?

After fight Bruce Buffer announced it as a TKO

it is silly but technically it can be argued with the wording of the rules

Shazbot · 22-12-2011 10:50am

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

After fight Bruce Buffer announced it as a TKO

it is silly but technically it can be argued with the wording of the rules

Just rewatched the video and listened to the announcement. I was editing my post when you wrote this

.

I'd say it was a mistake on Buffers part. He has made a few in the past.

Tubbs4 · 22-12-2011 11:36am

pablohoney87 wrote: »

What Matt Hughes says in public carries absolutely no weight to me and a lot of others. Watch that fight. He tried to break Royces arm. His arm slid out of position and bent the right way and Matt thought it was broken so he let go. Nothing to with him not wanting to break the arm. (My theory anyway but its what it looked like)
What submissions exactly are gonna be removed from the sport exaxtly

Sorry replying a bit late.

If there is a frequent in fights that fighters will not tap and end up getting their arms broke or ligaments tore their could be a few scenarios.

1. Fighters will not go through with the submission. Example Matt Hughes which I believe did not want to snap an arm. I am sure other fighters when have a heel hook on would not want to break an ankle or tear ligaments.

2. If at ever event at least one fighter got a limb broke - many people would not watch the sport. The main stream as Dana is trying to get will not tune in and use Boxing as being a safer sport excuse.

While they are more scenarios that could happen, my post was in responce to a post that Nog should have not tap due to pride.

Fall_Guy · 22-12-2011 2:45pm

loremolis wrote: »

Just to change the topic slightly.

I previously mentioned in this thread that I queried Paddypower in relation to the official decision in the Mir/Nog fight.

While Mir did break his arm, the official decision and the decision announced at the end of the fight was that Mir had won by TKO.

Paddypower paid out on a submission win for Mir.

I sent them a copy of the official decision and asked them to watch the announced decision at the end of the fight and to honor my bet.

Their response was that they are not changing their minds and they haven't commented the info I sent them.

I expected more from them to be honest.

The bet you placed was on "method of victory" i assume. They are referring to how the fighter finished the fight, not any offical decision / official ruling / whatever. If the fight was finished due to the use of a submission hold they will consider this a submission victory. If the fight is finished via strikes they will consider this a KO / TKO victory (the exception in both cases being if the fighter clearly taps to strikes and this is why the referee stops the fight). I'm sure when you were betting on TKO you were fully thinking about a finish via strikes.

MrStuffins · 22-12-2011 3:24pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

The bet you placed was on "method of victory" i assume. They are referring to how the fighter finished the fight, not any offical decision / official ruling / whatever. If the fight was finished due to the use of a submission hold they will consider this a submission victory. If the fight is finished via strikes they will consider this a KO / TKO victory (the exception in both cases being if the fighter clearly taps to strikes and this is why the referee stops the fight). I'm sure when you were betting on TKO you were fully thinking about a finish via strikes.

As much as I agree that the finish was definitely a submission and that it doesn't matter what Bruce Buffer say after the fight, the bookies need to refer to the OFFICIAL method of victory in relation to their payouts surely?

I mean, if the OFFICIAL method was TKO, then surely they can't not payout on TKO wins.

Fall_Guy · 22-12-2011 3:27pm

I'd be more than happy if they paid out on TKO victories in this case (havingbet on just that!) but I would be a hell of a lot more pissed off if I had bet on "Mir by submission" and they didn't pay out. Wouldn't you? I think common sense should prevail in cases like this.

MrStuffins · 22-12-2011 3:31pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I'd be more than happy if they paid out on TKO victories in this case (havingbet on just that!) but I would be a hell of a lot more pissed off if I had bet on "Mir by submission" and they didn't pay out. Wouldn't you? I think common sense should prevail in cases like this.

I 100% agree with you. if it was in my favour i'd be happy. But had I bet on win by sub and they didn't pay out i'd be unhappy.

Had I bet on TKO and Mir won the way he did and they didn't pay me, i'd suck it up.

At the end of the day, the bookies are never under any obligation to pay you out on anything. A bet with the bookie is legally considered a "gentleman's agreement".

22-12-2011 4:18pm

There's too much adhering to definitions in regards to these things.

We all know the definition of a TKO but Mir locked in a submission hold and the fight was stopped because of that hold so can we all stop debating this useless arguement?

It was an awesome event and it warrants discussion but the forum should all be debating whether Overeem will be able to KO Lesnar or will Lesnar pull that horseshoe out of his ass and beat him over the head with it?

MrStuffins · 22-12-2011 4:28pm

In football for things like this they have the "Dubious goals panel".

We should volunteer to be the "Dubious finishes panel".

We could lump all out money on TKOs and call all Subs TKOs. Cha-Ching!

El Guapo! · 22-12-2011 5:34pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

In football for things like this they have the "Dubious goals panel".

We should volunteer to be the "Dubious finishes panel".

We could lump all out money on TKOs and call all Subs TKOs. Cha-Ching!

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter....

loremolis · 22-12-2011 6:31pm

I've read the previous few posts in relation to this and given that it's only €15 I'm not really bothered that I didn't get paid.

However, I do think that Paddypower should have considered what I sent to them i.e. the official decision, instead of this patronising bullsh1t...

I am contacting you in relation to a bet settlement which you queried with us. You were querying whether Frank Mir actually won by submission. We have double checked the settlement of this bet.

A rematch with [URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000171/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B4nio_Rodrigo_Nogueira"]Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira[/URL] took place on December 10, 2011 at [URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000171/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_140"]UFC 140[/URL].[URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000171/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Mir#cite_note-47"][48][/URL] On December 10, Mir defeated Nogueira by kimura at 3:38 of round 1, snapping Nogueira's arm in the process. Mir is still only one of two fighters (the other being [URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000171/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_Velasquez"]Cain Velasquez[/URL]) to have finished Nogueira, and the only one to finish him twice, second time via submission. This marked also the first time Nogueira had been stopped via submission. The victory also earned Mir Submission of the Night honors.[URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000171/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Mir#cite_note-48"][49][/URL] UFC President Dana White called it the "submission of the century" at the post fight press conference.

Your bet has been settled correctly as a losing bet I'm afraid

It's not the money, it's the way they decide themselves that it was a submission without reference to the official decision of the governing body which was a TKO win for Frank Mir.

Official decision:
[URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000134/!x-usc:http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/Documents/MMA/toronto_acc_11_12_10_results.pdf"]http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/Documents/MMA/toronto_acc_11_12_10_results.pdf[/URL]

Fall_Guy · 22-12-2011 8:36pm

loremolis wrote: »

I've read the previous few posts in relation to this and given that it's only €15 I'm not really bothered that I didn't get paid.

However, I do think that Paddypower should have considered what I sent to them i.e. the official decision, instead of this patronising bullsh1t...

I am contacting you in relation to a bet settlement which you queried with us. You were querying whether Frank Mir actually won by submission. We have double checked the settlement of this bet.

A rematch with [URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000171/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B4nio_Rodrigo_Nogueira"]Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira[/URL] took place on December 10, 2011 at [URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000171/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_140"]UFC 140[/URL].[URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000171/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Mir#cite_note-47"][48][/URL] On December 10, Mir defeated Nogueira by kimura at 3:38 of round 1, snapping Nogueira's arm in the process. Mir is still only one of two fighters (the other being [URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000171/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_Velasquez"]Cain Velasquez[/URL]) to have finished Nogueira, and the only one to finish him twice, second time via submission. This marked also the first time Nogueira had been stopped via submission. The victory also earned Mir Submission of the Night honors.[URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000171/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Mir#cite_note-48"][49][/URL] UFC President Dana White called it the "submission of the century" at the post fight press conference.

Your bet has been settled correctly as a losing bet I'm afraid

It's not the money, it's the way they decide themselves that it was a submission without reference to the official decision of the governing body which was a TKO win for Frank Mir.

Official decision:
[URL="mhtml:{06001915-4B7D-4C01-A678-50780BA7EC92}mid://00000134/!x-usc:http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/Documents/MMA/toronto_acc_11_12_10_results.pdf"]http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/Documents/MMA/toronto_acc_11_12_10_results.pdf[/URL]

ah i know what you're saying and fair play for trying to get your winnings (i don't exactly look upon the bookies as a charity!) but ya know yourself that you're trying to take advantage of a technicality/mistake on the part of the officials at the event.

as i mentioned before, how would you have felt if you had your 15 bills on mir to win by submission and the bookies didn't pay out on it?