UFC 140 - Jones vs. Machida - 10th Dec. Spoilers inside

cowzerp

Ush1 wrote: »

It's usually so they know where their corner is to get direction the fighter can clearly hear..

that makes no sense, please explain.

Ush1

cowzerp wrote: »

that makes no sense, please explain.

Well I'm not 100% sure on this, some people just do it to get any dirt off there feet.

Just a couple of people have told me that when they are say in a clinch and looking down at the mat they can know that if they move towards the water patch that they will hear there cornermen better.

Just what I've been told, could be waffle of course.

Jason McCabe

Machida striking was obviously a bit better but he was striking before bones was born

He can change range and that's what great about the guy.

Did not like the way he dropped him like a bag of roosters when it was obvious he was out


Bring on Anderson please. Dear please

MrStuffins

Great great card! Some really swesome fights!

As far as the Main event goes, it went pretty much how i thought it would go! Machida being a challenge for Jones but Jones coming out on top. there is no doubt that he is the real deal! he has definitely cemented his position as the best LHW in the world!

The 2 guys being touted as the only guys left to challenge him are Hendo (who is compaigning on Twitter) and Rashad and in fairness to the 2 lads, i don't think either of them will come close to Jones.

I think it's way way to early to be talking about him fighting the likes of Silva. He hasn't even cleared out his division, there are still challengers. I think he can be the LHW champ for many many years to come!

MrStuffins

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah it's a technical submission when the fighter goes unconscious.
Trying to class that as a KO or TKO makes no sense, no matter what the rules say.

Very unsportsmanlike to just drop him on the ground and walk off though.

conor678 wrote: »

Does anyone here think it was unsportsmanlike for Jones to 'drop' Machida to the floor after the ref jumped in? I see on MMA junkie on the Sunday Junkie people are giving him grief (http://mmajunkie.com/news/26504/the-sunday-junkie-dec-11-edition.mma). I thought he just let him go soon the ref jumped in, as I would thinking **** he's out!

What's people thoughts on it? Is it valid or is it just more of the Jones hate out there?

jayteecork wrote: »

Especially after he admitted he knew Machida had gone to sleep and continued choking him.

Just wanna chime in here and say that the criticism of Jones and being "Unsportsmanlike" is completely unwarrented.

He choked him out and walked away, where's the big deal? Why no criticism for Mir after he crippled Nog? Or Jung after he stopped Hominick?

It's silly to think that a fighter has any sort of duty to look after his opponent after each fight? In extreme cases yes, you will see a fighter do this like when there is an extremely vicious KO or if a fighter subs someone and is in a particular position to assist (IIRC Chris Weidman rubbing the chest of Tom Lawlor after he subbed him is an example) and when they do it's great.

But what did you guys want Jones to do? Hold Machida's hand while he came around? machida wasn't really in any danger was he? He had been choked out and he came around, no big deal.

This is the first time i've seen anyone here criticise a fighter for something like this and I feel it's no coincidence, IMO there's an element of Jones hate that comes with being the best and people looking for excuses to criticise the best, like what we see with detractors of GSP and Silva (although, the GSP criticism, while I completely disagree with it, is perectly valid).

IMO, this is not BAD Sportsmanship. It's just not an example of perfect Sportsmanship, but certainly not bad Sportsmanship!
I bet that forum members here will watch 100s of fights over the next year and not once will they criticise someone for the same thing Jones did on Saturday night.

Jason McCabe

I'm a massive fan of bones. I think he could have put Machida down . He fell extremley awkwardly

Mir I also think should have been a bit more worried about Nog.


You must remember. Respect should be a major part of what martial arts is all about and something kids must be shown, especially by the big stars.

It's an odd sport. During a match you want to tear holes in ur opponent but afterwards you hope they can walk away.

pauldoo

i think the difference is nog had a choice he could tap before mir broke his arm, and he didnt, machida went to sleep(i know we could say he should have tapped before he went asleep) and jones knew hew was out, didnt tell the ref and just dropped him on his head.



I really dont like jones, but sliva and gsp are 2 of my favourite fighters

Zero-Cool

Agree with Paul. Nog should have tapped earlier. Mir was just trying to finish the fight and thats what he did. Bones knew Machida was asleep and he was still choking him, can't believe he even admitted that so casually. I didn't expect him to place Machida down, especially when a ref says it's over and wants you to let go of him but he should have made it clear to the ref that machida was out

MrStuffins

Respect is very important but I don't think it shows a lack of respect. The guy was in a fight with one of the best guys in the world. He is also the most hyped fighter on the planet at the moment! Sure he even apeared on Jay Leno before the Shogun fight.

Perhaps it was relief that he'd won that he dropped him? I still don't think it shows lack of respect or unsportsmanlike behaviour.

My point still stands that nobody else gets criticised for things like this. If Jones was an undercard fighter and did the same thing, this wouldn't be an issue!

pauldoo wrote: »

I really dont like jones, but sliva and gsp are 2 of my favourite fighters

Me too. And the point I was trying to make by mentioning them was that there are people who will criticise them for every little thing.

The "GSP id boring" criticism is the only one that stands up IMO. I disagree with it, but I 100% see where people are coming from when they say it.

When it gets into the "Well if he was a real man he would've stood with his opponent and not took him down" territory is when it gets silly and people are criticising for non issues. I believe this Jones situation is a non-issue.

MrStuffins

sheehy83 wrote: »

Agree with Paul. Nog should have tapped earlier. Mir was just trying to finish the fight and thats what he did. Bones knew Machida was asleep and he was still choking him, can't believe he even admitted that so casually. I didn't expect him to place Machida down, especially when a ref says it's over and wants you to let go of him but he should have made it clear to the ref that machida was out

Is he the first fighter to do this?

It might've been Weidman v Lawlor again, but there was a fight recently where the loser was choked unconcious and the fighter, although he appealed to the ref telling him he was out, didn't let go of the choke.

The fighter SHOULDN'T have to let go of the choke, he should be waiting for the referee to stop the fight!

p to the e

MrStuffins wrote: »

Is he the first fighter to do this?

It might've been Weidman v Lawlor again, but there was a fight recently where the loser was choked unconcious and the fighter, although he appealed to the ref telling him he was out, didn't let go of the choke.

The fighter SHOULDN'T have to let go of the choke, he should be waiting for the referee to stop the fight!

I think the problem was his left arm was stuck so from Big John's angle it looked as if he was still struggling to get out. It's when he notices his right arm (out of his view) that he stopped it. If Jones claims he knew he was out maybe he should have attempted to signal to the ref but as you say it is the referees responsibility.

Was watching an interview with Dana and he said how everyone booed Rampage out of the place when he first came to UFC and now he's a fan favourite so we shall see how time will judge Jones.

MrStuffins

p to the e wrote: »

I think the problem was his left arm was stuck so from Big John's angle it looked as if he was still struggling to get out. It's when he notices his right arm (out of his view) that he stopped it. If Jones claims he knew he was out maybe he should have attempted to signal to the ref but as you say it is the referees responsibility.

Was watching an interview with Dana and he said how everyone booed Rampage out of the place when he first came to UFC and now he's a fan favourite so we shall see how time will judge Jones.

And we see this now with Tito, Matt Hughes, etc.

Why is this? Because they are no longer the bad ass champions and they are the underdog type fighters! I'm not psychological expert (I know I know, "but MrStuffins, you are awesome at everything" you say, but not at everything. Just almost everything :pac:) but a lot of people don't want to cheer for the best guy.

I dunno if you follow/followed snooker but back in the day when Steve Davis was kicking ass, he was the single most universally disliked guy in sport. Because he was the best and beat everyone so badly that his matches were deemed "Boring" because they were so one-sided.

Nowadays he's probably the most popular guy in Snooker because he's no longer the best and is the loveable old-school rogue who plays for the love of the game.

I dunno if my analogy makes sense but I hope it does :P

Mr. Manager

MrStuffins wrote: »

Is he the first fighter to do this?

It might've been Weidman v Lawlor again, but there was a fight recently where the loser was choked unconcious and the fighter, although he appealed to the ref telling him he was out, didn't let go of the choke.

The fighter SHOULDN'T have to let go of the choke, he should be waiting for the referee to stop the fight!

I don't think people are necessarily giving out about continuing to hold the choke despite him being out but more in the manner in which he dropped him. I'm a fan of both and just thought it was a bit uncalled for to drop Machida on his face like that. Although, in the heat of it all and Big John telling you to let go your first instinct is to do just that and not think, "hey this guy is asleep on his feet, hope doesn't hit his head on the way down"

johnny_adidas

i actually think he was so relieved he won, he just walked away in a type of 'phew' moment. I watched the finish a few times yesterday morning, marveling at the choke and noticed he had a weird look on his face when he approached his corner just after the submission. Very quiet, underwhelmed at taking machida out
At first i thought it was the strut of one of the toughest guys on the planet, but no, looked like he was experiencing a moment of dented confidence. to me he comes across as a guy who has a big fear of losing and at that moment he realised he overcame one of his toughest opponents so far.
but hey, what do i know

MrStuffins

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

I don't think people are necessarily giving out about continuing to hold the choke despite him being out but more in the manner in which he dropped him. I'm a fan of both and just thought it was a bit uncalled for to drop Machida on his face like that. Although, in the heat of it all and Big John telling you to let go your first instinct is to do just that and not think, "hey this guy is asleep on his feet, hope doesn't hit his head on the way down"

True but this particular post was in reply to a person who said:

sheehy83 wrote: »

Jones knew Machida was asleep and he was still choking him, can't believe he even admitted that so casually.

MrStuffins

johnny_adidas wrote: »

i actually think he was so relieved he won, he just walked away in a type of 'phew' moment. I watched the finish a few times yesterday morning, marveling at the choke and noticed he had a weird look on his face when he approached his corner just after the submission. Very quiet, underwhelmed at taking machida out
At first i thought it was the strut of one of the toughest guys on the planet, but no, looked like he was experiencing a moment of dented confidence. to me he comes across as a guy who has a big fear of losing and at that moment he realised he overcame one of his toughest opponents so far.
but hey, what do i know

I completely agree with this.

Zero-Cool

MrStuffins wrote: »

True but this particular post was in reply to a person who said:

Jayus no way should he have just leg go when he was asleep. What I was getting at was he should have told big John he was asleep so John could maybe go to the other side to check. You shouldn't leave go of a sub until the ref stops it but if the ref is at a bad angle and you know the guy is asleep, you should be telling the ref to check him. Not his job of course but choking a guy you know is asleep is a bit crap man.

MrStuffins

sheehy83 wrote: »

Jayus no way should he have just leg go when he was asleep. What I was getting at was he should have told big John he was asleep so John could maybe go to the other side to check. You shouldn't leave go of a sub until the ref stops it but if the ref is at a bad angle and you know the guy is asleep, you should be telling the ref to check him. Not his job of course but choking a guy you know is asleep is a bit crap man.

It's not the fighter's job to know where the referee is positioned or to presume that the referee is at a bad angle. it is the job of the ref to ensure he knows the fighter is still concious and the referee in question happened to be the most experienced of referees.

It's Jon Jones' job to render his opponent unable to continue and wait for the referee to stop the fight. That is exactly what he did.

Clive

When you apply a submission, you should keep it until the referee stops the match. It's their job to ref, yours to fight. However you should disengage safely from the submission also. You don't just stand up from an omoplata, nor should you just drop an unconscious person. you release the choke and support their weight for the two seconds it would take the referee to take them into their care.

Ush1

Clive wrote: »

When you apply a submission, you should keep it until the referee stops the match. It's their job to ref, yours to fight. However you should disengage safely from the submission also. You don't just stand up from an omoplata, nor should you just drop an unconscious person. you release the choke and support their weight for the two seconds it would take the referee to take them into their care.

Good point, if you were to carelessly disengage from an omoplata you could probably be sanctioned.

Machida could have fell awkwardly on his arm or anything.

MrStuffins

Ush1 wrote: »

Good point, if you were to carelessly disengage from an omoplata you could probably be sanctioned.

Machida could have fell awkwardly on his arm or anything.

At the end of the day though, Jones is under no obligation to hold Machida up.

Machida should tap before going unconcious and if he doesn't, the ref is there to protetct him. But Jones doesnt have to hold him up.

Ush1

MrStuffins wrote: »

At the end of the day though, Jones is under no obligation to hold Machida up.

Machida should tap before going unconcious and if he doesn't, the ref is there to protetct him. But Jones doesnt have to hold him up.

I know he is under no obligation, but perhaps he should be, or shouldn't need to be.

Maybe Machida didn't have time, can choke someone out very quickly and he also was probably messed up from the punch that dropped him just before. But it's not as big an issue to me as it is to some others, just looked bad on TV if any casual fans were watching.

MrStuffins

Ush1 wrote: »

I know he is under no obligation, but perhaps he should be, or shouldn't need to be.

Maybe Machida didn't have time, can choke someone out very quickly and he also was probably messed up from the punch that dropped him just before. But it's not as big an issue to me as it is to some others, just looked bad on TV if any casual fans were watching.

I watched it and I never thought of it as bad sportsmanship at all. Never even thought about it until I read some people say it here.

Again, I can see how some might think it's bad sportsmanship but I think it's not an example of bad sportsmanship, it's just an example of not going out of your way to be overly sportsmanlike. And I think fighters shouldn't be expected to be overly sportmanlike all of the time.

Being overly sportsmanlike should be appreciated but not expected!

dave1982

dave1982

MrStuffins wrote: »

I watched it and I never thought of it as bad sportsmanship at all. Never even thought about it until I read some people say it here.

Again, I can see how some might think it's bad sportsmanship but I think it's not an example of bad sportsmanship, it's just an example of not going out of your way to be overly sportsmanlike. And I think fighters shouldn't be expected to be overly sportmanlike all of the time.

Being overly sportsmanlike should be appreciated but not expected!

How many fighters have told the ref "he's out" while trying to submit someone.

Refs can miss stuff

Jone's had him up in that position you can feel someone going limp, Jones should have told the ref he's out.He admitted to Rogan after that he knew he was out.

I think sportmanship should be expected, Guys spend 3 months preparing for each other pre fight, least a guy can do is show respect after the fight.

Jones dropped Machida like he was **** and strolled off, only checking on him after being told to.



Saying that Mir left Nog on the floor knowing he had broken arm.


My issue would be not letting the ref know he's out.

MrStuffins

dave1982 wrote: »

How many fighters have told the ref "he's out" while trying to submit someone.

Refs can miss stuff

I know this. I've addressed it already.

Jone's had him up in that position you can feel someone going limp, Jones should have told the ref he's out.He admitted to Rogan after that he knew he was out.

no he shouldn't. He shouldn't have to. It's not the fighters job to tell the ref anything, it's the ref's job to make sure the fighter is able to fight on.

I think sportmanship should be expected, Guys spend 3 months preparing for each other pre fight, least a guy can do is show respect after the fight.

I agree with you. But sportsmanship and respect are 2 completely different things so I can't really reply to this point properly.

Jones dropped Machida like he was **** and strolled off, only checking on him after being told to.

So? What was he checking for? did he think he was dead? he was unconcious from a choke. he knew exactly machida's position. As did you i'm guessing. Would I be right in thinking that when you watched theend of the fight you didn't think "Oh, Machida looks like he's in real trouble here. I wonder is he ok? I wonder is his life in any danger?"

Like f*ck you did. you thought "Machida is out, he'll be concious again in 10 seconds and he'll be 100% in a few minutes.

Saying that Mir left Nog on the floor knowing he had broken arm

Indeed, which goes back to my point about this being just an excuse for people to complain about Jon Jones and not as an isolated incident of unsportsmanlike conduct. Nobody mentioned Mir at all! And I never see anyone mention things like this on here from any fights.

My issue would be not letting the ref know he's out.

That's not his job. It's the referee's job to recognise when a fighter isn't out. If the ref "missed" this then it is not a failing on the fighter's part but a failing on the part of the referee and his poor positioning!

dave1982

How long should a fighter hold a choke after they can feel other fighter is out?

10 seconds? 2 minutes, 4 minutes?

What if the ref misses it completely?

A fighter could get seriously injured unnecessarily, i don't think guys fight each other to end careers.

I think holding chokes too long is dangerous and unnecessary,these guys are trained in this and know exactly when some one is out.

Although i agree the refs job is to protect the fighter but accidents happen, it don't take much to say he's out, and let the ref decide from there.

I don't mean say he's out and let go btw,tell the ref and let him tell you stop

Cherry_Cola

I can see how people might think it's bad that Jones didn't go to check on him but realistically why get in the way of trained medical personnel to check on someone. It's best to just let them do their job just as you've just done yours.

MrStuffins

dave1982 wrote: »

How long should a fighter hold a choke after they can feel other fighter is out?

Bit of a loaded question but the answer for me would be that they should hold any submission until the referee stops the fight.

What if the ref misses it completely?

Then I would imagine the referee will face disciplinery charges? I'm not sure what the procedure is.

A fighter could get seriously injured unnecessarily, i don't think guys fight each other to end careers.

No, they don't. Which is why strong refereeing is needed.

I think holding chokes too long is dangerous and unnecessary,these guys are trained in this and know exactly when some one is out.

You're right. And the fight is only over when the referee stops the fight. Jones did nothing wrong in this respect.

You do you think Chris Weidmann should be criticised for holding onto the choke of Tom Lawlor even though he knew Lawlor was out and the referee hadn't seen it? Do you think it makes it ok to hold the choke just because he told the referee Lawlor was out?

Although i agree the refs job is to protect the fighter but accidents happen, it don't take much to say he's out, and let the ref decide from there.

Well considering the ref was John McCarthy, maybe Jones didn't think he'd need to tell such an experienced guy how to do his job?

I don't mean say he's out and let go btw,tell the ref and let him tell you stop

So which is it? Do you want fighters to let go when they feel their opponent is out? Or do they wait til the ref steps in?

Again, it is NOT the job of the fighter to tell the ref anything. That's what the referee is there for! That's the point of a referee!

dave1982

i mean say he's out if you think the ref has missed it.

MrStuffins

dave1982 wrote: »

i mean say he's out if you think the ref has missed it.

I think the fighters have their own jobs to be worrying about without doing the ref's jobs for them!

scudzilla

Hmmmmm, true colours shining through here maybe???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4JARf8nCpE

evil_seed

scudzilla wrote: »

Hmmmmm, true colours shining through here maybe???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4JARf8nCpE

"Go get some fans"

scudzilla

evil_seed wrote: »

"Go get some fans"

Yeah, exactly, more spin from the Jackson camp!!

Fall_Guy

evil_seed wrote: »

"Go get some fans"

i would guess that jackson is aware that Jones is a bit of a selfish, cocky git. But he seems like a hell of a people-person so he probably also thought it was wiser to use positive language rather than negative language when trying to get his fighter to show some respect for his opponent. "Go check on Lyoto, go get some fans!" probably translates to "stop being an asshole and show some respect" but is likely to get a much better reaction from Jones.

feelpablo

thought he said "against the fence"???

DeVore

Cherry_Cola wrote: »

I can see how people might think it's bad that Jones didn't go to check on him but realistically why get in the way of trained medical personnel to check on someone. It's best to just let them do their job just as you've just done yours.

You can at least show you give a crap..... Jones is amazing but I wont be cheering for him any time soon. Did he break the rules? No, but you know what..... I dont want to cheer for him and thats my choice.

DeV.

dave1982

MrStuffins wrote: »

I think the fighters have their own jobs to be worrying about without doing the ref's jobs for them!

Its also his job not to kill some one,MMA is not fight to death unless the ref stops you.

Which is the impression you're giving.

I want to see fighters healthy and able to fight again.

The way you're coming across is, its the refs fault if someone dies or is seriously injured brain damage etc.


Professional fighters should know, when enough is enough if not its not a sport anymore.

Clive

MrStuffins wrote: »

Indeed, which goes back to my point about this being just an excuse for people to complain about Jon Jones and not as an isolated incident of unsportsmanlike conduct. Nobody mentioned Mir at all! And I never see anyone mention things like this on here from any fights.

I have to agree with you here MrStuffins, some people are just looking for a stick to beat Jones with - there's a load of nonsense floating around about unfair reach, he's a heavyweight, "cheap" elbows etc.

I'll lay my cards on the table - I don't like Jones. I don't like Machida either. I don't like Mir. Nog is one of my MMA heroes. However, I have no problem with what happened between Mir and Nog. Mir disengaged and left Nog in a stable position - the damage was done. Jones, however dropped an unconscious person with no regard to their safety. I have no issue with him walking off or with choking him out until stopped, he just could have waited a second or two until Machida was in the care of the referee before sauntering off.

Did he have to support him? No.
If someone faints on you on a crowded bus do you have to support them? No.

Either way I think a grown man should know that sometimes you should do more than what you "have to" out of common decency.

MrStuffins

dave1982 wrote: »

Its also his job not to kill some one,MMA is not fight to death unless the ref stops you.

Which is the impression you're giving.

I want to see fighters healthy and able to fight again.

The way you're coming across is, its the refs fault if someone dies or is seriously injured brain damage etc.


Professional fighters should know, when enough is enough if not its not a sport anymore.

Come on Dave, you're better than this. You know full well I am NOT saying anything about death in the ring!

I thought we were having a good debate until you spewed this crap! Don't be so silly!

MrStuffins

scudzilla wrote: »

Hmmmmm, true colours shining through here maybe???

Trainer Jackson clarifies 'get some fans' comment following Jones' UFC 140 win


Just as Jon Jones was caught up in the moment following his submission win over Lyoto Machida, so too was trainer Greg Jackson when he told his fighter to "go check on Lyoto – get some fans."

"I shouldn't have spoken in that way, but that wasn't my intention," Jackson today told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com). "It sounded bad, but moronic [expletive] comes out of my mouth sometimes."

The intention, he said, wasn't to be political but to remind Jones to conduct himself honorably inside the cage.

"What I was saying was, 'Go check on Lyoto,' what I meant was to remember that you're a public figure," Jackson said. "There's always attention on you and what you're doing all the time, and there's cage etiquette. There's things you're supposed to do, and going and checking on somebody is what you're supposed to do.

"And now because I'm in military mode and in shorthand mode, I say, 'Jon, go check on Lyoto and go get some fans,' and what I should have said was, 'You're a public figure. There's a way to conduct yourself.' But instead, I shorthanded it."

Light-heavyweight champ Jones (15-1 MMA, 9-1 UFC) submitted Machida (17-3 MMA, 9-3 UFC) with a modified guillotine choke in the second round in the headliner of this past Saturday's UFC 140 event, which took place at Air Canada Centre in Toronto and aired live on pay-per-view.

There are several unwritten rules between fighters and camps when it comes to the time before, during and after fights inside the octagon. One of the most well-recognized is the act of shaking hands with the opposing fighter and his coaches. But frequently when an injury takes place during a fight, or there is a particularly devastating stoppage, a fighter is seen attending to his downed opponent as medical officials tend to him.

In most cases, fighters are seen embracing as the official decision is announced inside the cage.

While Jackson's words implied a certain lack of care from Jones toward Machida, he said that isn't the case.

"That's the point I want to drive home," Jackson said. "Jon is a really good guy. Everybody is just attacking his character because that's what you have to attack when you can't attack somebody's fighting.

"It's not that he was a bad guy. You just literally go crazy. None of these guys outside of the cage could understand that after the fight, you're in the zone, man. It's such an intense camp, especially for Jon, month after month, fight after fight.

"Let's take B.J. Penn for an example. He's actually a really nice guy; he walks around licking blood off his gloves all the time. Chuck Liddell is one of the sweetest, nicest guys you'll ever meet, but when he knocks you unconscious, he runs around screaming and pumping his arms. That's not normal behavior. So my job with Jon is to remind him. When the referee said break, he broke, and then he was still there in that zone. I was like, 'Now, it's time to relax and calm down and check on the guy.' I should have said, 'Remember your public figure.' But like I say, 'Go get some Donald Cerrone,' I said, 'Go get some fans.'"

But as Jackson has become accustomed to during his time as a trainer to world-class fighters, he said his words and actions are frequently misinterpreted.

"So it's just a matter of time before everyone gets mad at me again," Jackson joked.

The silver lining, of course, is the performance of his fighter, who defended his belt for the second time in his fourth performance of this year. While Jones' struggled with Machida and appeared flustered in the first round, he took complete control in the second after taking the former champ to the ground and opening a cut with an elbow. After rocking Machida with a punch late in the frame, he seized upon a choke and put the Brazilian out cold.

"Machida came in with a great plan; he was trying to interrupt Jon's strikes in between what I call a 'heaviola' style of fighting," Jackson said "You put a note in between the notes, where every time they go to do something, you interrupt them. That was a brilliant, brilliant tactic. It worked very well for him.

'[Jones] got hit a few times really hard. He showed that he had a great jaw. He got kind of flustered and confused for a little bit and was able to bring it back and reconnect with everything. He got tested and he passed the test. I was so proud of him for that."

.

dave1982

MrStuffins wrote: »

Come on Dave, you're better than this. You know full well I am NOT saying anything about death in the ring!

I thought we were having a good debate until you spewed this crap! Don't be so silly!

OK OK fight to the death may have been excessive.

Jones is not in the "Babalu" category, but i can't why someone would hold a choke on someone, knowing full well the other fighter is unconscious.

I find it a unnecessary method to victory.

McDonald v Leben springs to mind where McDonald told the ref he was out.If i remember correctly it was a RNC or a guilatine.

On watching the GIF Jones only held the choke for maybe 3-4 seconds before Big John stepped in. In fact the crowd noticed it before the ref

Look if Jones had not mentioned to Rogan he knew he was out i'd have no problem with it.

MrStuffins

dave1982 wrote: »

OK OK fight to the death may have been excessive.

Jones is not in the "Babalu" category, but i can't why someone would hold a choke on someone, knowing full well the other fighter is unconscious.

I find it a unnecessary method to victory.

McDonald v Leben springs to mind where McDonald told the ref he was out.If i remember correctly it was a RNC or a guilatine.

On watching the GIF Jones only held the choke for maybe 3-4 seconds before Big John stepped in.

Look if Jones had not mentioned to Rogan he knew he was out i'd have no problem with it.

Kinda what i'm getting at. He's not in the Babalu category, people are just using this as excuse to hate on the dude.

I understand he COULD'VE held him up, but the fact that he didn't doesn't mean he's classless in my opinion.

Mellor

Clive wrote: »

I have to agree with you here MrStuffins, some people are just looking for a stick to beat Jones with - there's a load of nonsense floating around about unfair reach, he's a heavyweight, "cheap" elbows etc.

I agree with you regarding the nonsense.
It's hat e for the sake of hate. He shouldn't apologise for his reach. He isn't actually heavir than most LHWs etc

dave1982 wrote: »

On watching the GIF Jones only held the choke for maybe 3-4 seconds before Big John stepped in. In fact the crowd noticed it before the ref

The problem with the gif is that its not real time remember.
Out of interest, I've checked out the GIF;

1. From the time his arm goes limp, its 2.6 seconds until ref moves to stop it. NOTE: This is GIF time, real time is likely less. Also, this is from the first drop of his arm. He amy not of been fully out until the dropped fully and his grip released (1 sec later)
2. Jones releases the choke very quickly, that suggests that he was ready to stop.
3. It's a modified guillotine choke. Look how high his arm postitioning is. Its not easy to hold him up after releasing pressure. Could of been worse.

The reason this choke looks worse is that we don't see standing chokes very often. If this happens on he ground its not an issue.

Joens nt going over after is a different matter. I don't think we should confus the two.

Mr. Loverman

I think greed is what beat Nogueira. He had the fight won but knew from the previous results (and the likelyhood of Jones v Machida being a KO win) that he would get the 75k for submission of the night, so decided to submit Mir rather than punch him one more time and end the fight.

MrStuffins

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I think greed is what beat Nogueira. He had the fight won but knew from the previous results (and the likelyhood of Jones v Machida being a KO win) that he would get the 75k for submission of the night, so decided to submit Mir rather than punch him one more time and end the fight.

I seriously doubt that was any kind of reason.

I am open to correction of course, but that's a bit of a wild stab at a motive!

cowzerp

I think he simply wanted to be able to say he subbed Mir which would arguably make him the number 1 heavyweight submission fighter, was a silly decision and 1 which lost him the fight.

dave1982

Mir said something like if Nog continued to punch, Mir could have gotten a takedown or even got away.

ollieo

dave1982 wrote: »

Mir said something like if Nog continued to punch, Mir could have gotten a takedown or even got away.

Mir was talking out of his ass, he was nearly done.

Like Paul said Nog went for the sub instead of pounding Mir out, it cost him the fight.

Mellor

Maybe that's what happend. But we'll never know.
Mir was down and went for a leg. I thought at the time that Nog wanted to take control on the ground then to prevent Mir securing a dominant position.