Intel or AMD CPU for gaming PC?

Paul_Hacket

deconduo wrote: »

In the description of the first video:
HEATSINK: ZALMAN 9900LED 120MM FAN ALL COPPER HEATSINK

Second video:


Best looking stock cooler I've ever seen.

In the first video the description clearly refers to his NEW system - in the video itself he clearly states that it is being overclocked out of the box with no add ons. In the second video the guy has two computers and your frame grab is from the second unit - read the comments on the video below where some other tool made the same mistake and was corrected.

Pretty much everybody who knows anything about this subject knows that this chip can be overclocked to 3.8ghz with the stock cooler. Everybody except you that is.

More evidence?

http://www.klaslo.com/?p=399

http://techreport.com/articles.x/16796/13

I suppose all of these journalists, youtube posters and ordinary users like me are all lying right Deconduo? Like I say, keep going, it's amusing to see you make a fool of yourself in public.

Paul_Hacket

nesf wrote: »

Um, what? We're talking about a system with a 6850 at 720p here for reference.

The point being that if a laptop with a weak and out of date cpu is not significantly 'cpu bound' for these games I really don't think there will be any real world playability issues with a 3.8ghz desktop cpu. And again you haven't supplied any realworld examples where that is true apart from a buggy game.

Serephucus

The funny thing is, deconduo never even said you couldn't overclock it. He just said it would be very loud (and probably hot).

I dunno about you, but I wouldn't really want the hoover of a machine that the guy in the second video has.

Sasquatch76

Taking it to PM out of the question lads?

Eamonn Brophy

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

In the first video the description clearly refers to his NEW system - in the video itself he clearly states that it is being overclocked out of the box with no add ons. In the second video the guy has two computers and your frame grab is from the second unit - read the comments on the video below where some other tool made the same mistake and was corrected.

Pretty much everybody who knows anything about this subject knows that this chip can be overclocked to 3.8ghz with the stock cooler. Everybody except you that is.

More evidence?

http://www.klaslo.com/?p=399

http://techreport.com/articles.x/16796/13

I suppose all of these journalists, youtube posters and ordinary users like me are all lying right Deconduo? Like I say, keep going, it's amusing to see you make a fool of yourself in public.

You're either a fan-boy, trolling or just looking for an argument or to somehow prove some kind of superiority in your "supposed" technical knowledge.

This thread is one for giving advice on a build, not arguing and being a know-it-all. You've advised the chip you think he should buy, the majority have recommended different chips for different reasons.

The majority here believe that an Intel chip is the better choice, you don't. Deal with this fact, and move on.

If you wish to make another thread to discuss the issue, go ahead, but please stop polluting this thread with your bull-hotheadedness.

Paul_Hacket

Serephucus wrote: »

The funny thing is, deconduo never even said you couldn't overclock it. He just said it would be very loud (and probably hot).

I dunno about you, but I wouldn't really want the hoover of a machine that the guy in the second video has.

He said it would require a heatsink. It doesn't - as two seconds of googling would demonstate.

This is the stock heatsink that comes with the X4 955

Eamonn Brophy

Can we get a mod in here? This thread isn't for flame-wars?

deconduo

Apart from anything else, its irrelevant to argument at hand. Sure you might be able to maybe get 3.8 on the stock cooler if you're exceptionally lucky with the chip you get but even then the i3 is:

-Quieter and Cooler [1]
-Much more power efficient [2]
-Cheaper [3]
-Better at gaming [4]

Sources:
[1], [2] 125W vs 65W TDP, Power consumption test here
[3] €100 vs €110
[4] All gaming benchmarks here

Serephucus

Eamonn Brophy wrote: »

Can we get a mod in here? This thread isn't for flame-wars?

Ah c'mon! I was just starting to enjoy this!

Paul_Hacket

Eamonn Brophy wrote: »

You're either a fan-boy, trolling or just looking for an argument or to somehow prove some kind of superiority in your "supposed" technical knowledge.

This thread is one for giving advice on a build, not arguing and being a know-it-all. You've advised the chip you think he should buy, the majority have recommended different chips for different reasons.

The majority here believe that an Intel chip is the better choice, you don't. Deal with this fact, and move on.

If you wish to make another thread to discuss the issue, go ahead, but please stop polluting this thread with your bull-hotheadedness.

I'm guessing you didn't read the thread in its entirety. I'm the one who argued from the beginning that at this budget point an AMD was a better choice by linking to a Tom's Hardware build article that conlcluded with the same. Others then tried to say that the Intel was better because it gave a better upgrade path and then they went into arcane nonsense about CPU upgrades being more important for gamers than slotting a second card into a system. That's demonstrable nonsense and when it was shown to be so they went on to claim that this chip cannot be overclocked with its stock cooler when there are dozens of articles online stating that they are.

I'm happy to drop it because I have clearly encountered a nest of Intel fanboys (for the receord - 3 of the five computers I own have Intel procesors), but I don't think it's unreasonable to respond to claims that are demonstrably untrue.

Paul_Hacket

deconduo wrote: »

Apart from anything else, its irrelevant to argument at hand. Sure you might be able to maybe get 3.8 on the stock cooler if you're exceptionally lucky with the chip you get but even then the i3 is:

-Quieter and Cooler [1]
-Much more power efficient [2]
-Cheaper [3]
-Better at gaming [4]

Sources:
[1], [2] 125W vs 65W TDP, Power consumption test here
[3] €100 vs €110
[4] All gaming benchmarks here

We've been through this already repeadedly above. You ignore the fact that the i3 has:

1. Only two cores compared to the 955's four. So it's a dog to it in multithreaded apps

2. Has only 3MB of cache to the AMD's 6

3. Requires a more expensive motherboard, especially for SLI

4. Cannot be overclocked.

5. Was the loser in a heads up battle on Tom's Hardware for a $500 gaming build at this pricepoint.

So let's just agree to this agree since we can all agree that this has gotten tedious.

nesf

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

The point being that if a laptop with a weak and out of date cpu is not significantly 'cpu bound' for these games I really don't think there will be any real world playability issues with a 3.8ghz desktop cpu. And again you haven't supplied any realworld examples where that is true apart from a buggy game.

Of course the bloody laptop isn't CPU bottlenecked, it's got a weak GPU to go along with a weak CPU. Do you understand at all what you're talking about here? The load on the CPU rises as the GPU(s) get more powerful. The bigger and better the GPU the more CPU power you need to throw at it to get the full potential out of the GPU. Adding SLI to a rig will put far more strain on the CPU creating bottlenecks that weren't there before. This is all before we get into games that are particularly CPU (read: physics/AI) heavy. Any game can be CPU bottlenecked, you just need to have excessive GPU power for a given resolution and since we're talking about 720p you don't need that much in modern GPU terms to do this.

This is where all those gaming benchmarks on anandtech.com come from. They're looking at CPU scaling in various games with fixed GPU set ups.

Paul_Hacket

nesf wrote: »

Of course the bloody laptop isn't CPU bottlenecked, it's got a weak GPU to go along with a weak CPU. Do you understand at all what you're talking about here? The load on the CPU rises as the GPU(s) get more powerful. The bigger and better the GPU the more CPU power you need to throw at it to get the full potential out of the GPU. Adding SLI to a rig will put far more strain on the CPU creating bottlenecks that weren't there before. This is all before we get into games that are particularly CPU (read: physics/AI) heavy. Any game can be CPU bottlenecked, you just need to have excessive GPU power for a given resolution and since we're talking about 720p you don't need that much in modern GPU terms to do this.

This is where all those gaming benchmarks on anandtech.com come from. They're looking at CPU scaling in various games with fixed GPU set ups.

First of all - who said we were talking about 720p? That's an arbitrary rule you made up. You made a bizarre claim above that upgrading an already relatively fast processor verus adding a second graphics card in a gaming rig was some kind of "toss up". That is simply not true and if you were to post that idea on a forum such as Tom's Hardware or Anandtech you wold be laughed out of it. If you think I'm wrong then go ahead and do so - this 'toss up' you are referring to only aftecs literally a couple of games in the thousands that have been published and the performance advantages from a cpu upgrade are trivial even for those - as is shown even in your own examples. The advantages of adding a second card on the other hand are huge as is widely understood in the mainstream gaming community.

Serephucus

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

1. Only two cores compared to the 955's four. So it's a dog to it in multithreaded apps

In some apps, it beats the i3, in others the i3 will edge out.

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

2. Has only 3MB of cache to the AMD's 6

Ok... ? Who gives a crap?

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

3. Requires a more expensive motherboard, especially for SLI

Board for €50

SLI board for €85

AM3 board for €40

And I couldn't find an AM3 board offering SLI support, don't know if there is one.

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

4. Cannot be overclocked.

Not needed. (see upgrade options for 1155)

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

5. Was the loser in a heads up battle on Tom's Hardware for a $500 gaming build at this pricepoint.

Linkie please.

nesf

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

First of all - who said we were talking about 720p? That's an arbitrary rule you made up. You made a bizarre claim above that upgrading an already relatively processor verus adding a second graphics card in a gaming rig was some kind of 'toss up'. That is simply not true and if you were to post that idea on a forum such as Tom's Hardware or Anandtech you wold be laughed out of it. If you think I'm wrong then go ahead and do so - this 'toss up' you are referring to only aftect literally a couple of games in the thousands that have been published and the performance advantages from a cpu upgrade are trivial - as is shown even in your own examples. The advantages of adding a second card on the other hand are huge as is widely understood in the mainstream gaming community.

Quit putting words in my mouth. I never said it was a toss up, I said it depended on where the bottleneck was in the games you play.

deconduo

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

Went on to claim that this chip cannot be overclocked with its stock cooler when there are dozens of articles online stating that they are.

Never said that, I said you'd be lucky to get 3.8 at stock and if you do it will be loud and hot.

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

We've been through this already repeadedly above. You ignore the fact that the i3 has:

1. Only two cores compared to the 955's four. So it's a dog to it in multithreaded apps

2. Has only 3MB of cache to the AMD's 6

3. Requires a more expensive motherboard, especially for SLI

4. Cannot be overclocked.

5. Was the loser in a heads up battle on Tom's Hardware for a $500 gaming build at this pricepoint.

So let's just agree to this agree since we can all agree that this has gotten tedious.

1. Irrelevent, we're talking about gaming. Also its a lot closer than you claim.
2. Irrelevent, only actual performance matters.
3. For non-SLI the prices are the same. For x8/x8 SLI the cheapest AM3+ one is €100, the cheapest 1155 one is €105. For x4/x16 crossfire the cheapest AM3+ one is €65, the cheapest 1155 one is €75.
4. Irrelevent, only actual performance matters. I've been comparing stock i3 to overclocked X4 the whole time.
5. The X4 system on tomshardware had a better graphics card, and even then the i3 beat it almost all games at 720p. If both systems had a 6870 then the i3 would have won hands down in gaming.

Paul_Hacket

Serephucus wrote: »

In some apps, it beats the i3, in others the i3 will edge out.



Ok... ? Who gives a crap?



Board for €50

SLI board for €85

AM3 board for €40

And I couldn't find an AM3 board offering SLI support, don't know if there is one.



Not needed. (see upgrade options for 1155)



Linkie please.

You don't think there are dual AM3 graphics boards? I see..... Ahem.....

The Tomshardware link is here, you will notice that they overclock the machine to 3.8ghz without an additional cooler, care to retract some of your earlier comments on that topic?

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/phenom-ii-overclock-graphics-card,3032.html

From the conclusion:

There's no question which box had the most powerful GPU, so this comparison basically comes down to the processor and motherboard that serves your purpose the best. If Intel would give us a competitively priced K-series Core i3, with a fully unlocked multiplier, then we would give a dual-core CPU another look. But while this is a gaming PC, first and foremost, it also has to perform well in all other disciplines to be considered a successful SBM build. Two 3.1 GHz Hyper-Threaded cores are sufficient for most gaming needs. However, they aren't enough to compete when we squeeze out additional performance through overclocking. For this reason, our value-oriented System Builder Marathon machine is better served by a Black Edition Phenom II X4 processor.

Paul_Hacket

deconduo wrote: »

Never said that, I said you'd be lucky to get 3.8 at stock and if you do it will be loud and hot.



1. Irrelevent, we're talking about gaming. Also its a lot closer than you claim.
2. Irrelevent, only actual performance matters.
3. For non-SLI the prices are the same. For x8/x8 SLI the cheapest AM3+ one is €100, the cheapest 1155 one is €105. For x4/x16 crossfire the cheapest AM3+ one is €65, the cheapest 1155 one is €75.
4. Irrelevent, only actual performance matters. I've been comparing stock i3 to overclocked X4 the whole time.
5. The X4 system on tomshardware had a better graphics card, and even then the i3 beat it almost all games at 720p. If both systems had a 6870 then the i3 would have won hands down in gaming.

The Tom's hardware review acknowledges that the AMD system had a better graphics card (which was possible since the AMD components were cheaper to buy) yet it still concluded that graphics card aside the AMD was the better system. See the quote in my last post above.

deconduo

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

The Tom's hardware review acknowledges that the AMD system had a better graphics card (which was possible since the AMD components were cheaper to buy) yet it still concluded that graphics card aside the AMD was the better system. See the quote in my last post above.

And once again you respond to one part and ignore the rest of the post. Apart from the fact that tomshardware are not exactly the pinnacle of tech sites, :rolleyes: you are misinterpreting what they said.

This quarter's PC wins in our gaming tests. But that's attributable to more powerful graphics hardware, and not its Phenom II processor. Once again we're forced to conclude that AMD is just not able to match the per-clock performance of Intel’s Sandy Bridge offerings.

But while this is a gaming PC, first and foremost, it also has to perform well in all other disciplines to be considered a successful SBM build. Two 3.1 GHz Hyper-Threaded cores are sufficient for most gaming needs. However, they aren't enough to compete when we squeeze out additional performance through overclocking.

They say the X4 is better for an all-round build, but the i3 is better for a pure gaming build. This is what I've been arguing since the very start

Paul_Hacket

nesf wrote: »

Quit putting words in my mouth. I never said it was a toss up, I said it depended on where the bottleneck was in the games you play.

Okay so I guess there a different user named Nerf who posted the following on page 4 of this thread, is there? You should definitely report him because he is posting some ridiculous stuff and damaging your reputation:

nesf wrote: »

An extra 6850? It's a toss up really depending on what kinds of games he plays whether he'd benefit more from one or the other assuming he's gaming at 1080p or less.

Serephucus

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

You don't think there are dual AM3 graphics boards? I see..... Ahem.....

Again with you putting words in peoples' mouths. I never said there weren't any, I said I didn't know if there were. Would you like to tell me what you think of Franz' Boas views on structural functionalism? No? Well hey, I guess you don't know everything either!

As for the review, I see things either being very close, or the Intel setup edging out the AMD one at lower resolutions.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and have sex.

Paul_Hacket

deconduo wrote: »

They say the X4 is better for an all-round build, but the i3 is better for a pure gaming build. This is what I've been arguing since the very start

No, they don't say that. The build in question is for a $500 gaming pc - did you miss that? They basically say that the chips performance differences are negligible when it comes to gaming (hardly surprising since they are both good chips and games cast much more demand on the GPU than the CPU unless you are constrained by a really low end CPU which does not apply here). Therefore they went for the AMD since it gives you a better all round computer than the locked i3. That's their conclusion, I understand you have your own opinions but you'll have to accept that the people at Tom's Hardware think different.

nesf

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

Okay so I guess there a different user named Nerf who posted the following on page 4 of this thread, is there? You should definitely report him because he is posting some ridiculous stuff and damaging your reputation:

Can't you read? It's a toss up depending on what kinds of games you play, i.e. where the bottlenecks are given your current system, resolution etc. You're making out that I'm saying in general it's a toss up between a CPU or an extra GPU regardless of game which is obviously not what I said if one can identify the qualifications attached to the usage of "it's a toss up".


You'll only ever get the full benefit of SLI if your CPU can handle the extra load. This is why adding a second card with a weak CPU doesn't give you much of a gain.

cherryghost

Lads, this discussion topic is about hardware with cold hard facts. It's not a place to sneer and insult each other. Any more and I'm closing the thread and handing out infractions.

This thread had disaster written all over it, mind you.

aperture_nuig

Total build cost: €437.22 + €30 shipping
Intel Core i3-2100 Box, LGA1155 €100.97
8GB-Kit G.Skill PC3-10667U CL9 €28.26
Gigabyte GA-PH67-DS3-B3, Intel H67, ATX €76.49
BitFenix Merc Alpha €31.69
Super-Flower Amazon 80Plus 550W €54.49
Sapphire HD6870 1G GDDR5 PCI-E DL-DVI-I+SL-DVI-D / HDMI / DP €145.32

New build with some suggested changes,some I made myself. I added a 550 psu (amazon) and a board with crossfire so I can add a second card as an upgrade. Any other suggestions? if anyone spots a way to reduce the price and maintain a good level of performance.

EDIT:
Sorry, I really didnt mean to cause so much disruption in the forum, I even asked in the OP for this not to turn into a flame war :pac:

Solitaire

Hacket, you've well and truly gone out of your way to antagonize other members and derailed this thread in the process of prosecuting your own little vendetta in the name of AMD.

You've wilfully missed the point and misinterpreted other posters and reviews and test results over and over throughout the thread. Its ridiculous behaviour and your little crusade ends now. Any more of this nonsense and I'm going to be forced to close this thread and cool you off with a short holiday from here.

Serephucus, you are also on exceedingly thin ice. You let this troublemaker get to you and made angry responses that effectively egged him on to even greater heights of insanity. But you also flat-out insulted him, which is not tolerated in any way, shape or form. You should have kept your cool, rebutted him with logic no matter how crazy his assertions and then Reported his posts once he completely derailed this thread. Not go and call him a moron.

TL;DR: Any more trouble and this thread is closing and troublemakers banned.

nesf

aperture_nuig wrote: »

Total build cost: €437.22 + €30 shipping
Intel Core i3-2100 Box, LGA1155 €100.97
8GB-Kit G.Skill PC3-10667U CL9 €28.26
Gigabyte GA-PH67-DS3-B3, Intel H67, ATX €76.49
BitFenix Merc Alpha €31.69
Super-Flower Amazon 80Plus 550W €54.49
Sapphire HD6870 1G GDDR5 PCI-E DL-DVI-I+SL-DVI-D / HDMI / DP €145.32

New build with some suggested changes,some I made myself. I added a 550 psu (amazon) and a board with crossfire so I can add a second card as an upgrade. Any other suggestions? if anyone spots a way to reduce the price and maintain a good level of performance.

EDIT:
Sorry, I really didnt mean to cause so much disruption in the forum, I even asked in the OP for this not to turn into a flame war :pac:

What resolution is your monitor and the disruption is because we all think SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!11!!1. Nothing to do with you...

Paul_Hacket

Solitaire wrote: »

Hacket, you've well and truly gone out of your way to antagonize other members and derailed this thread in the process of prosecuting your own little vendetta in the name of AMD.

You've wilfully missed the point and misinterpreted other posters and reviews and test results over and over throughout the thread. Its ridiculous behaviour and your little crusade ends now. Any more of this nonsense and I'm going to be forced to close this thread and cool you off with a short holiday from here.

Serephucus, you are also on exceedingly thin ice. You let this troublemaker get to you and made angry responses that effectively egged him on to even greater heights of insanity. But you also flat-out insulted him, which is not tolerated in any way, shape or form. You should have kept your cool, rebutted him with logic no matter how crazy his assertions and then Reported his posts once he completely derailed this thread. Not go and call him a moron.

TL;DR: Any more trouble and this thread is closing and troublemakers banned.

In what specific sense sense were my assertions "crazy"? These guys claimed that this chip is not overclockable without add on coolers etc. and I posted multiple links saying they were. Did you read my early posts on this thread? Totally reasonable until people started making statements that are demonstrably untrue apart from in bizarre usage cincustances. And as for me being pro-AMD that just shows that you haven't read my posts - I stated repeatedly above that most of my machines are actually Intel based. I guess anyone who tries to defend AMD on these threads is going to be beaten down pretty damn quickly. I'm all for moderation and repeatedly offered to aggree to disagree in the posts above. Did you read them? I'm guessing not.

aperture_nuig

nesf wrote: »

What resolution is your monitor and the disruption is because we all think SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!11!!1. Nothing to do with you...

Thanks! It's a 1080p, and I play mostly things like the source games, Fallout, metro 2033, GTA, would like to have a reasonable performance at reasonable settings on battlefield 3 and skyrim, but i'm not expecting miracles from a budget build.

nesf

aperture_nuig wrote: »

Thanks! It's a 1080p, and I play mostly things like the source games, Fallout, metro 2033, GTA, would like to have a reasonable performance at reasonable settings on battlefield 3 and skyrim, but i'm not expecting miracles from a budget build.

Planning on overclocking? If not your build is fine.