Noonan buckles under bookie pressure.

MagicSean

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Its a tax on turnover so once the customer hands over say €10 then 10c is the assumed tax ; the customer doesn't have to physically hand over an extra 10c but he is paying the tax regardless.

Are you sure it's on turnover?

RoverJames wrote: »

If the tax was paid on winnings the bookie deducts it before paying the balance

Yes that would be easy. But it isn't a tax on winnings.

RoverJames wrote: »

Secondly, at the moment the bookie pays the tax, if the customer was to pay the tax and claimed they didn't have it they would be treated as slow counters, no cash means no bet taken. Many bookies won't clock in a docket unless the cash is there. And the bet can be changed after scanning it in too

But if you are relying on the till to make the calculations then you have to scan the docket to get the total in the first place. And if the race is off you generally can't change the docket or cancel it.

cloneslad wrote: »

bets can be voided after they have been scanned. It's just a matter of typing a simple note alongside the bet on the computer, such as 'customer has insufficient funds' and it will be fine.

However this realisitically has to be done before the race is over, as your boss (or the taxman) will look at the time it was voided and the time of the race and think you are trying to steal the money.

That's my point. It's not workable when it comes to people placing bets close to the off of a race.

ArmaniJeanss

MagicSean wrote: »

Are you sure it's on turnover?

100% sure.
Articles like the below one, and if you google something like 'irish betting tax turnover tax' theres other articles that make clear its a 1% tax on turnover.
http://ggbmagazine.com/issue/vol-10-no-6-june-2011/article/ireland-could-double-turnover-tax

Obviously this is just the 'punters tax', the bookie is still liable to the appropriate corporate tax on profits.

MagicSean

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

100% sure.
Articles like the below one, and if you google something like 'irish betting tax turnover tax' theres other articles that make clear its a 1% tax on turnover.
http://ggbmagazine.com/issue/vol-10-no-6-june-2011/article/ireland-could-double-turnover-tax

Obviously this is just the 'punters tax', the bookie is still liable to the appropriate corporate tax on profits.

So you think the bookies should absorb the cost instead of passing it on?

ArmaniJeanss

MagicSean wrote: »

So you think the bookies should absorb the cost instead of passing it on?

Well the bookie is entitled to do so, as is any other business. So long as the correct tax gets paid the Revenue are happy.

As to whether the bookie 'should', do you mean from a business pov, or from an ethical point of view that the customer is 'getting away without paying'.

From a business pov it makes sense for the bookie to absorb it up to about 1.5%, becomes a marginal business decision above that, and stops making business sense around 2%. Though what happens at 2% and above is that the big players (Powers, Boyles) can absorb it in urban centres which forces the smaller independents to also absorb it. Because if you've a choice between doing a €10 bet in Powers or a €10.20 bet in DaveyKellys across the road then its a no-brainer.

MagicSean

MagicSean wrote: »

.................



That's my point. It's not workable when it comes to people placing bets close to the off of a race.

Of course it's workable, I used to gamble in betting offices when there was a 3% betting tax, it wasn't rocket science to work out the tax. It worked perfectly back then and could work again if they introduced it.

What you are suggesting is punters leaving short the bookie the tax, that's no different to putting €50 on your docket and handing the bookie €49 as that's all you have on you, try that in your local betting office and see how you it goes

Currently bookmakers pay the 1% betting tax which they could pass on to the customer if they wanted.

Fear Uladh

Minister Noonan had sex with his bookie?

cloneslad

MagicSean wrote: »

Are you sure it's on turnover?
.

It's 1% per bet, so yes.

But if you are relying on the till to make the calculations then you have to scan the docket to get the total in the first place. And if the race is off you generally can't change the docket or cancel it.

If the cashier can't add a simple 1-2% to a stake, then they shouldn't be in the job. The cashier only has to enter in the amount staked to scan the bet, the tax is added afterwards, otherwise the computer would think you had put €10.10 on a bet and would mulitply the odds by that amount, rather than the €10.00 which should have been entered.

That's my point. It's not workable when it comes to people placing bets close to the off of a race.

It is very workable. Cashiers can work out the maths very easily. I used to have to work it at 3% and you could take 7-8 bets on the off. Even if the customer put on a €50.00 bet, and they didn't have the tax, the shop would only be down about €1.50, and this can be recovered / explained quite easily. If someone did a 'slow count' more than once, they'd soon be told they wouldn't be allowed to place any bets at the off, or else they'd be told to take their business elsewhere.

I used to have to take bets of over €1,000 from a certain customer, so I'd scan it in, while at the same time, phoning for approval from the shop's raceroom to make sure I was allowed to take it. Most races last at least 2 mins anyway, and you have around 30 seconds after the off to place you bet with most shops (depending on the length of the race).

El Weirdo

MagicSean wrote: »

That's my point. It's not workable when it comes to people placing bets close to the off of a race.

How can you say it's not workable when it was done like that for years before the tax was abolished?

Dumpthedummy

Easy peasy betting tax

Simple. By amending the betting legislation to capture telephone and internet betting, the Government would guarantee that all bets placed in or from Ireland would pay the betting duty. The Fianna Fail Coalition had such legislation drafted, but bottled out under pressure from the bookies and decided not to introduce it in the 2010 budget. This change in legislation would have answered the legitimate concerns that increasing the betting duty from 1% to 2% would drive punters offshore and thereby penalise Irish bookies. That’s the point. If the Government includes telephone and internet betting in the betting duty, it captures all bets from Ireland and there is no financial incentive to place bets in the Isle of Man or elsewhere. Simple to do, but only if you have the political nerve to defy the bookies.

ArmaniJeanss

Dumpthedummy wrote: »

Simple. By amending the betting legislation to capture telephone and internet betting, the Government would guarantee that all bets placed in or from Ireland would pay the betting duty. The Fianna Fail Coalition had such legislation drafted, but bottled out under pressure from the bookies and decided not to introduce it in the 2010 budget. This change in legislation would have answered the legitimate concerns that increasing the betting duty from 1% to 2% would drive punters offshore and thereby penalise Irish bookies. That’s the point. If the Government includes telephone and internet betting in the betting duty, it captures all bets from Ireland and there is no financial incentive to place bets in the Isle of Man or elsewhere. Simple to do, but only if you have the political nerve to defy the bookies.

And how do you go about, in an EU free market, taxing my internet betting transaction with a Maltese or Cypriot based branch of a big bookie?
As long as I pay all the applicable taxes at their end (i.e. none), then dual tax agreements between all EU members will mean nothing more is due this end of the transaction.

Ray Palmer

El Weirdo wrote: »

How can you say it's not workable when it was done like that for years before the tax was abolished?

The world changed and that is why they abolished it.

Stiffler2

Jeez would a few paragraphs hurt ?
Had to stop reading at "Heard"

The first word in post.

Dumpthedummy

Dumpthedummy wrote: »

Easy peasy betting tax

Simple. By amending the betting legislation to capture telephone and internet betting, the Government would guarantee that all bets placed in or from Ireland would pay the betting duty. .................

So the likes of Betfair would be required to charge all folk betting from the ROI this betting duty and then they pass it on the the Revenue folk? Would that be simple? Would it be easy to police?

If someone resident in the UK was over here for work and placed some bets would those bets be liable?

marco_polo

RoverJames wrote: »

So the likes of Betfair would be required to charge all folk betting from the ROI this betting duty and then they pass it on the the Revenue folk? Would that be simple? Would it be easy to police?

If someone resident in the UK was over here for work and placed some bets would those bets be liable?

I think you'll find its all explained clearly in step 2.

Step 1: Introduce internet betting tax legislation.

Step 2: ???

Step 3 Profit.

smokingman

Dumpthedummy wrote: »

Easy peasy betting tax

Simple. By amending the betting legislation to capture telephone and internet betting, the Government would guarantee that all bets placed in or from Ireland would pay the betting duty. ..... This change in legislation would have answered the legitimate concerns that increasing the betting duty from 1% to 2% would drive punters offshore and thereby penalise Irish bookies.

So you're saying that we would be able to make companies that have no connection to Ireland, pay our government for bets placed from an Irish IP address... Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

"Hi Mr. German company, give us a share of any money that originated in Ireland...what's that you say? All Irish transactions are coming through a freely available internet proxy in the Camen islands so no proof of IP address there?...what's that you say? As a company registered in another country, the Irish government have no jurisdiction rights to ask for money from foreign companies that aren't even registered in Ireland?

You haven't really thought this through have you?
Look up some of the problems the US had in trying this and see how much money currently goes through the Bahamas as a result.

Seems to me that bookies are a target of the OP because he loves that usual whingy crap that happens when people want to blame all their problems on "someone else" as opposed to taking personal responsibility for their own actions. By his logic, smokes/drink/cars and probably bloody pokemon should be banned.

Grow a pair and take responsibility for you own actions ffs.

JONJO THE MISER

He Just put a tax on remote betting from Ireland for betting exchanges only, scumbag in the pockets of Paddy Power.

JONJO THE MISER

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

He Just put a tax on remote betting from Ireland for betting exchanges only, scumbag in the pockets of Paddy Power.

Any chance of a link Jonjo ?

Ah yes
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1206/budget.html

"Will introduce legislation to facilitate the extension of betting duty to remote betting and the introduction of betting intermediaries duty to cover betting exchanges"

Hope it will be easy to follow, don't want my log getting complicated !!

Dumpthedummy

No need to get personal, there are a few holes in your arguement!

smokingman wrote: »

So you're saying that we would be able to make companies that have no connection to Ireland, pay our government for bets placed from an Irish IP address... Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

The argument you use has been trotted out by PP for years, ‘you can’t legislate for an internet business’. That’s just not true. There are many other services which are supplied over the internet, yet Governments do not give them any exemption from their indirect taxes. If for example you are an advertising agency, you can provide your services electronically from offshore, just like the bookmakers, however both you and the onshore customer are liable to register and pay the VAT due on the service. Governments have not shied away from legislating and there are severe penalties for offenders. If they did not legislate in such a way the providers of these services would simply base their computer servers offshore and refuse to pay their taxes as the Bookies are currently doing. Paddy Power are not alone in doing this, but they are the most publicly vocal with their threats about moving jobs out of Ireland.
The major companies who account for the vast bulk of betting turnover in Ireland are UK or Irish plcs and they have to abide by the law.


"Hi Mr. German company, give us a share of any money that originated in Ireland...what's that you say? All Irish transactions are coming through a freely available internet proxy in the Camen islands so no proof of IP address there?...what's that you say? As a company registered in another country, the Irish government have no jurisdiction rights to ask for money from foreign companies that aren't even registered in Ireland?

Under money laundering laws internet bookmaking companies have to know their clients and have to keep records of their financial transactions. Mr German as he calls him is subject to tax audit just like everybody else and if he wants to avoid paying what is an exceptionally low tax by international standards (the German states have just agreed to impose a 5% turnover tax on internet betting) he will have to get involved in what would amount to a huge fraudulent scheme involving all his punter clients and then keep it secret from the authorities. I wonder who hasn't really thought this out properly.

Seems to me that bookies are a target of the OP because he loves that usual whingy crap that happens when people want to blame all their problems on "someone else" as opposed to taking personal responsibility for their own actions. By his logic, smokes/drink/cars and probably bloody pokemon should be banned.

Grow a pair and take responsibility for you own actions ffs.

On a final point, you are mixing me up with someone else. I don’t have a problem with betting. I do believe in personal responsibility. I also believe in fair play and that single companies or small groups of companies should not be able to enjoy a perverse hold over the Irish state’s fiscal policy. A hold which has seems to me to have applied over Governments for at least 12 years.