modern languages cut

greengreen

The cutting of modern languages in primary school must one of the most shortsighted policies in the budget. The 2.5 million euro that the scheme cost will not be saved but transfered to another area of the dept. and some of the teachers
involved ( part timers) will end up on the dole making this cut a net cost for the dept.

Ayla

So what would you suggest they cut instead?

I appreciate that €2.5m is not much in the grand scheme, but they have to cut *somewhere*, so what specifically in the education sector would you think won't cause job losses, increased class sizes, reduced SNAs or general hardship for everyone involved?

IMO, I'm personally tired of everyone whinging about how x, y or z is unfair to cut but they're not offering any sort of specific alternatives.

Orion

Well how about investing in education to provide a much longer term benefit to the country?

Cutting modern languages in primary school is completely short-sighted. It is proven internationally that the earlier children are exposed to other languages the better they absorb them and this has a long term benefit. To save such a paltry amount of money at the expense of a massive potential gain is nuts.

Also as greengreen said this cut will only result in more teachers on the dole and therefore being a net loss - so has identified a alternative - keeping them employed.

greengreen

Ayla wrote: »

So what would you suggest they cut instead?

I appreciate that €2.5m is not much in the grand scheme, but they have to cut *somewhere*, so what specifically in the education sector would you think won't cause job losses, increased class sizes, reduced SNAs or general hardship for everyone involved?

IMO, I'm personally tired of everyone whinging about how x, y or z is unfair to cut but they're not offering any sort of specific alternatives.

No Whinge here as I said the money will be transferred to other areas so no saving and the language teachers will lose out and be on the dole making this cut a cost not a saving.

Ayla

Orion wrote: »

Well how about investing in education to provide a much longer term benefit to the country?

Cutting modern languages in primary school is completely short-sighted. It is proven internationally that the earlier children are exposed to other languages the better they absorb them and this has a long term benefit. To save such a paltry amount of money at the expense of a massive potential gain is nuts.

Also as greengreen said this cut will only result in more teachers on the dole and therefore being a net loss - so has identified a alternative - keeping them employed.

I agree, but you can't invest money you don't have. Yes, I *know* education is absolutely vital to the sucess of this country and its people, but the question remains - what would you cut instead?

Greengreen, you didn't answer my question either. They have to cut something, so what cut in the education sector would you believe wouldn't be short-sighted or a net loss?

Orion

I'd cut the 1.2billion payout in January to unsecured Anglo bond holders. Then invest in lowering class sizes and expanding the curriculum.

djcervi

greengreen wrote: »

The cutting of modern languages in primary school must one of the most shortsighted policies in the budget. The 2.5 million euro that the scheme cost will not be saved but transfered to another area of the dept. and some of the teachers
involved ( part timers) will end up on the dole making this cut a net cost for the dept.

It's a shame to see this go. It was through learning Spanish in Primary School when I was 9, that I develop a love for languages. I'm now studying Spanish and French as part of my undergraduate degree.

As bad as it really is, I'd much prefer this than a cut to the SNAs. Young people with disabilities got it bad in the budget.

ShamoBuc

Unhappy to see this go as it doesn't save any great amount of money but has a fantastic benefit for schoolchildren. It will help to free up some time on the timetable for the increased Literacy and numeracy perhaps for the class levels involved, but it is a shame to lose it.

greengreen

Ayla wrote: »

I agree, but you can't invest money you don't have. Yes, I *know* education is absolutely vital to the sucess of this country and its people, but the question remains - what would you cut instead?

Greengreen, you didn't answer my question either. They have to cut something, so what cut in the education sector would you believe wouldn't be short-sighted or a net loss?

Yes i know that cuts have to come but the dept. have said that the savings from this scheme will not lead to a reduction in spending but will be used for as yet unspecified roll out of a strategy. Total fudge. meanwhile the part time teachers will be on the dole as they have no panel rights in this scheme. This will be a net cost not a saving.

Ayla

Yes, I hear you. But whether you're purposely avoiding my question or not I can't figure.

The Education sector is one of the top 3 expenses of the State, and equally one of the top 3 priorities of the State, so exactly what cut would not cause a "net loss" or a "shortsighted" downfall? Any cut to any program or department within the sector will likely cause job losses, which will impact on the classroom setting and ultimately the quality of education. So repeating what you've already said now three times gets no one closer to any sort of a solution.

aisher

I am not sorry to see it go - my kids are in 5th class and I feel they need more time on their English and Maths - they do so little of each on a daily basis and I would prefer they go into Secondary with a good grasp of the basics before they start another language - personally I would prefer they drop Irish but thats for another day.

greengreen

http://tinyurl.com/mlpsi
online petition against this here.
I have signed it. I am not into this protest stuff but we can't keep doing nothing . It's time to let people know that the Irish people do care about what is happening to their country.

silverharp

the standard of language teaching is not great as its not taken seriously. My kids are near bilingual so I know a thing or two about what it takes to foster a second language. What is being cut here is a blip so hard to get exited about it one way or the other.

greengreen

silverharp wrote: »

the standard of language teaching is not great as its not taken seriously. My kids are near bilingual so I know a thing or two about what it takes to foster a second language. What is being cut here is a blip so hard to get exited about it one way or the other.

And that is what the government were hoping we would think. If we let this go then we can never get it back. I actually think that languages are important. This scheme brought modern languages to children who would never have had a chance to hear them in their daily life.

Roadtrippin

I know this thread has not been looked at since December (basically since the cut of the Modern Languages in Primary School Initiative had been decided) but I think it is very important that people keep talking about this topic. I really disagree with the government cutting this initiative since in the big scheme of things it costs them near to nothing to keep it going. Finally, when this initiative started gaining momentum across Ireland and more and more parents were pushing schools to offer a second language apart from Irish in primary schools, the government decides to ruin all the good work of the last couple of years...
I have been teaching a language in a primary school part-time and the kids love it. Parents have been protesting against the governments' decision and want their children to continue learning the language, but there is only little that a few parents can do without mainstream support and coverage by the media.
The general benefit of this initiative is not just that children learn the basics of a language in a playful manner, they also learn that they are not alone on this planet and that not everyone speaks English in this world!
One of the most memorable things one of the children asked me one day was: I thought people over there all speak English? Why don't they speak English like us?
What was an innocent question just goes to show that children need to be educated in that regard and culturally more aware!

Lady_North1

My three children did french in primary school. Hated it. All opted for german in secondary school. Much prefer them to have had more oral irish lessons, literacy or maths than wasting two years on french.

Mr.Wemmick

This is where after school clubs come into their own during times of cut backs.
An after school German or Spanish class for interested children/parents, that can be paid for separately to cover costs if needs be, could keep a foot in the door of foreign language development.

I feel sorry for schools that are experiencing cutbacks in crucial areas like learning support, with the core curriculum in literacy and numeracy, and I for one would like to see schools receiving more help in this area, helping/supporting children who need it the most.

In an ideal world it would be great to see foreign languages flourish in primary school but unfortunately it always comes down to cost when there are cutbacks in education.

Roadtrippin

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

This is where after school clubs come into their own during times of cut backs.
An after school German or Spanish class for interested children/parents, that can be paid for separately to cover costs if needs be, could keep a foot in the door of foreign language development.

I feel sorry for schools that are experiencing cutbacks in crucial areas like learning support, with the core curriculum in literacy and numeracy, and I for one would like to see schools receiving more help in this area, helping/supporting children who need it the most.

In an ideal world it would be great to see foreign languages flourish in primary school but unfortunately it always comes down to cost when there are cutbacks in education.

I might suggest that at the school I'm teaching part-time at... Some parents were asking what'll happen to the programme next year and wanted it to keep going.

tweenie

My kids school do not do a modern language. Is it fair that some schools have it and others don't? Either all schools or none should have it - why should some children have the opportunity to learn a language when other kids sna are being removed?

Roadtrippin

tweenie wrote: »

My kids school do not do a modern language. Is it fair that some schools have it and others don't? Either all schools or none should have it - why should some children have the opportunity to learn a language when other kids sna are being removed?

I agree with you 100%

I do not know why the government could not implement an introduction of the MLPSI across all Irish primary schools in Ireland back in 2004 when they launched the initiative.
I reckon it was due to lack of teachers.

Since I teach myself I have very strong opinions about this. I think they should have made a modern language at primary school level obligatory for everyone. But a lot of people think (often those that have never studied another foreign language) that it could be too much for the children to handle. It shouldnt be. In the school I teach in the children love the idea of learning a language and if it is done in a playful manner without many tests it will make a difference. If children build a positive relationnship with languages at that age it will last them for life!

I for one think it is a shame the government regards language learning (except for Irish) as unnecessary... Literacy and language learning are directly linked according to research despite what Quinn said... He claimed that if children do not know English well they wont know another language well. That is not true at all!
Learning a language will make children learn simple grammatical concepts like what a noun is etc. That helps with literacy!

Mr.Wemmick

Actually the truth about learning another language is that it makes you more aware of how your own mother-tongue language works.. it would strengthen not weaken a child's understanding of English grammar whilst exploring how another language works and how it is put together.. and besides, young primary school children are like sponges, they soak up learning new facts/info at an amazing rate..

I can't believe a politician came out with that nonsense re language learning.. crikey! The ignorance of it. :rolleyes:

If we have language teachers in this country then we should be using them to educate our children within the school curriculum or in after school clubs. Considering the work place has become a global one then it is up to us as parents to make sure our children have the best start in life and are prepared if they have to go where their jobs/careers take them. If history has taught us anything it is that we as a country depend on emigration to further our careers or get employment when none is to be got at home.. so a basic understanding of another language in primary school will go a long way in laying down a foundation with future language development in secondary school and beyond.

My son is 7 and has a good base level of German, he takes weekly lessons. He has already shown a keen interest in Spanish and would love to know more. He can count up to 10 in Spanish and knows a few words/phrases without anyone ever teaching him it - afaik, he picked it up from TV :eek:

Roadtrippin

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Actually the truth about learning another language is that it makes you more aware of how your own mother-tongue language works.. it would strengthen not weaken a child's understanding of English grammar whilst exploring how another language works and how it is put together.. and besides, young primary school children are like sponges, they soak up learning new facts/info at an amazing rate..

I can't believe a politician came out with that nonsense re language learning.. crikey! The ignorance of it. :rolleyes:

Considering the work place has become a global one then it is up to us as parents to make sure our children have the best start in life and are prepared if they have to go where their jobs/careers take them. If history has taught us anything it is that we as a country depend on emigrationso a basic understanding of another language in primary school will go a long way in laying down a foundation with future language development in secondary school and beyond.

My son is 7 and has a good base level of German, he takes weekly lessons. He has already shown a keen interest in Spanish and would love to know more.

I'm glad that you feel this way. there's too few people in this country that regard languages an important skill for later life... Politicians being the main culprits. Probably cos they never learned another second language except Irish!

dambarude

Ruairí Quinn currently has tunnel vision. All he can see is numeracy, literacy and school patronage. He's putting development in other areas of the curriculum at risk in order to prioritise the 3 Rs. Modern languages was the first to get chopped.

In a few years time I'll sure there will be a swing away from the current moves again, but in the meantime some very dubious decisions are being made.

byhookorbycrook

Dambarude, I will go further and say he is choosing to make popular announcements with no follow-through. Have we seen any change in patronage?No. The literacy and numeracy strategy seems to have been no more than a press release.

dambarude

I do think that patronage change, or moves towards it, will come before long. It's a hot potato though, so is being stymied at the moment.

Roadtrippin

Lady_North1 wrote: »

My three children did french in primary school. Hated it. All opted for german in secondary school. Much prefer them to have had more oral irish lessons, literacy or maths than wasting two years on french.

I personally think there is already plenty of time spent on teaching and learning Irish in the Irish education system. It's the only language they have to learn from an early age on and yet very few students actually leave school speaking Irish after how many years studying it...??? There is something that needs to change in the Irish curriculum, that much is clear. The effectiveness of what they are doing in schools to teach Irish seems questionable. You cannot spend this many years on a language and produce that many students without a clue on how to speak Gaeilge fluently!
More oral Irish lessons should be happening already but they're not spending enough time of the Irish curriculum on communicative proficiency. Also they should give a higher percentage towards the oral exam in the Leaving Cert which would automatically shift the weight onto more speaking practice in class and throughout the Irish curriculum.

Also, a question for you: did you ever find out why your children hated French so much? Would be interesting to know the actual reason why.

I don't think spending two years on French is a waste - I think if my children spent 8 years or more learning Irish and still can't string together a coherent sentence spontaneously, that is a waste.
I am all for keeping Irish as part of the curriculum but something about the way it's taught and assessed needs to change.

Also, I think Ireland will find itself with a lot of citizens soon that do not know how to speak another language apart from Irish, which in this day and age is simply not good enough when we're competing internationally with people that speak two, three or more languages fluently...
Maybe it's time we woke up to the fact that not everyone on this planet speaks English!