Dogs Behaviours

ddogsbollix

I was just wondering can a dog judge a person's personality. i have a neighbour and there dog is very friendly all the time even with strangers however one night people came to steal stuff in there shed and the dog went mental. He never acted in this way before even say if the vet was down in the middle of the night at a cow calving or even me looking at the cows in the middle of the night...??

Wibbs

Yea they can alright. They can pick up on so many nuances and microgestures from a person. It's part and parcel of domestication. They've been selected to pick up on humans behaviour and it goes both ways. When people, even dyed in the wool non dog lovers are played tapes of dog vocalisation, they're remarkably accurate in gauging the dogs emotional state. Play the same group of people chimp vocalisation and they're really bad at working out the emotions behind it. And chimps are our closest relatives.

Dogs and humans are one of the few animals who understand pointing at things(chimps don't). Expensive experiments have been carried out to prove this. Bit of a waste of time and money given there are a whole chunk of breeds with the word "pointer" in their name, which may have given the game away

They're very clued into us. Even wild canids like wolves and dingos are way better than primates at spotting human behaviour. Captive wolves party trick is spotting the human "sucker" in a group, the man or woman who with a little affection offered will give them food or give them undue leeway. They even learn to bark more to get peoples attenton as they realise we're deaf as a post by comparison to them. That's wild dogs. Domesticated dogs are experts in human psychology. So I'm not surprised your neighbours dog spotted the "dodgy fecker", the odd one out and acted accordingly.

DBB

Wibbs wrote: »

Dogs and humans are one of the few animals who understand pointing at things(chimps don't). Expensive experiments have been carried out to prove this. Bit of a waste of time and money given there are a whole chunk of breeds with the word "pointer" in their name, which may have given the game away

You're kinda missing the point here, if you pardon the pun!
That pointers point is not particularly relevant in these experiments.. the point is that dogs recognise the communicative nature of the human pointing gesture better than other animals (though the fact that chimps don't seem to "get it" is perhaps disingenuous to chimps, it is likely that they simply don't understand the way humans are asking the question!). Which suggests that there may be a co-evolution of socio-cognitive communicative gestures between dogs and humans. It has nothing to do with the fact that some dogs "point" when they've picked up the location of hidden quarry.
I'm wondering when you call them "expensive" experiments, did you actually mean "extensive"? Because they are relatively extensive in behavioural labs in Europe and the US, but they are certainly not expensive to carry out. Neither were the ones on bark recognition, as it happens. On the contrary, as experiments go, they are straightforward, reasonably quick, and cheap to carry out!

Wibbs

DBB wrote: »

You're kinda missing the point here, if you pardon the pun!
That pointers point is not particularly relevant in these experiments.. the point is that dogs recognise the communicative nature of the human pointing gesture better than other animals (though the fact that chimps don't seem to "get it" is perhaps disingenuous to chimps, it is likely that they simply don't understand the way humans are asking the question!). Which suggests that there may be a co-evolution of socio-cognitive communicative gestures between dogs and humans. It has nothing to do with the fact that some dogs "point" when they've picked up the location of hidden quarry.

Well duh it kinda is. AFAIK there are no breeds of cat called "pointers" so any experiment that found that cats could do this with humans would come as a more impressive result. It was clear some dogs understand pointing and can point themselves in cooperation with humans and have been bred/selected to do so. The breed name being the dead giveaway. So that part was a given. The experiment did establish this across many breeds. It also showed that dogs can infer from a human's eyes where the human is looking, so they were the important bits, not "do dogs understand pointing?". It also showed that this was selected for/evolved over time as tame wolves, while much better than chimps with finger/hand gestures weren't as good as domesticated dogs at it and weren't observed to pick up the eye movement. The experiments(and others previously) did indeed show chimps didn't "get" pointing to nearly the same degree, regardless of how they were engaged. They can learn it, but not very well. It's not something that appears to be in their bag of evolutionary tricks. Funny enough members of the corvid family(crows and such) do understand pointing and used it among themselves. I would personally suspect other animals, in particular social predators might get the concept better. Makes sense. The ability to pick out a prey animal from the herd and communicate that to other members of the pride/pack/group would be a serious advantage.

I'm wondering when you call them "expensive" experiments, did you actually mean "extensive"? Because they are relatively extensive in behavioural labs in Europe and the US, but they are certainly not expensive to carry out. Neither were the ones on bark recognition, as it happens. On the contrary, as experiments go, they are straightforward, reasonably quick, and cheap to carry out!

Yea Doh, I meant extensive. Brain fart.

seamus

I really think they are excellent at spotting subtle cues in people's body language to ascertain what they're like.

The JRT we had growing up was a fairly friendly girl. Suited herself most of the time, but would generally go over and greet visitors with a wagging tail and by rolling over onto her back. Never ever showed any aggression unless we wound her up.

I have a crazy aunt who lives abroad. Proper nuts, shrill, hysterical and has no "off" button. Starts talking the minute she enters the room and doesn't stop. Goes bonkers happy when she sees children or animals.
She hadn't come home for about 8 years and so had never met the JRT. So she comes home one year, walks into our kitchen and before she'd even opened her mouth, the dog ran under the kitchen table. "Where's the dog" she asks, leans down to have a look, and the JRT starts growling at her.
We broke our hearts laughing but we were also stunned because she had never done that for anyone before, but instantly disliked this aunt (we didn't blame her ).
We had no other explanation except that the JRT instantly recognised physical and verbal cues which told her to be wary of this woman. Brilliant.

Although my Staffie might be a counter-argument to that. She misinterprets people staring at her on the street as someone looking to give her a cuddle and makes a beeline for them. I laugh when you get idiots who fall over themselves or bang into walls to try and get by us quicker (no, I don't let the dog go near them).

TooManyDogs

Dogs have a huge number of tiny things they recognise and attribute to an individual person, so it doesn't surprise me at all the dog went bonkers at the burglar. Dogs recognise and attribute footsteps, car engines and things like that to a particular person, so when you're going in during the night to a cow calving they'd have already recognised your car and then your footfall pattern so know who you are and that you're not a threat.
The burglar however would not have been recognised and would have been coming in completely out of context by footsteps, entering during the night and possibly through an entry way that wasn't where people normally come in.

One of the houses I lived in had a 4ft walll between us and the neighbours so the dogs couldn't see over it but we could. We always knew when they had visitors in the garden, before anyone spoke because the dogs would bark, they recognised all the family members, and gradually all the regular friends because we told them to stop barking but we always knew new visitors.

To the point of entering the house through an out of context entry way, my sis in law came over to visit with her brother, she minds the house when we're away so the dogs know her well. We were on the way home, about 10 mins away but bro in law had the bright idea to go into the back garden and go in the open window!!!! Not a good plan My lab x simply wouldn't let him in, then my sis in law tried and he wouldnt let her in either!! As far as he's concerned people simply don't come into the house through the window. When we got home and let them in the front door Oscar ran over to sis in law delighted to see her!

DBB

Wibbs wrote: »

Well duh it kinda is.

AFAIK there are no breeds of cat called "pointers" so any experiment that found that cats could do this with humans would come as a more impressive result.

Indeed, but as a matter of interest, cats are also excellent at interpreting the human pointing gesture.
But you are missing my point. The aim of these experiments was not to establish can dogs point to humans to communicate something, they were to establish can dogs (not just pointing breeds... all breeds, types, and makes of dogs) interpret and respond to human pointing gestures as a means of communication. This work is not concerned particularly with pointing breeds pointing.
So, to reiterate, the direction of the experimentation was to see if dogs understand human pointing gestures, not do humans understand dog pointing gestures (because, let's face it, pointers were developed to point, so it is kinda implicit that when a pointer points, he's pointing at quarry. So that pointers can point is a given. What was not a given was that dogs (all types) seem to be able to understand the communicative meaning of a human pointing gesture)

It was clear some dogs understand pointing and can point themselves in cooperation with humans and have been bred/selected to do so. The breed name being the dead giveaway.

This is a little simplistic. Most dogs, no matter what breed, can respond to a human pointing gesture. And, as it happens, other experiments have been carried out (by the same lab that carried out all the communicative work you've quoted) that indicate that dogs can "tell" their owner where something is if it has been hidden unknownst to the owner.. this skill is certainly not limited to pointers...every breed and type that has been tested can do this. We've all seen it in our own dogs!

It also showed that dogs can infer from a human's eyes where the human is looking, so they were the important bits, not "do dogs understand pointing?".

On the contrary, the whole point of the experiments was, and is, to establish "do dogs understand pointing" (in humans). Lots of effort has gone into trying to establish this, and is still going on.
As for following the human gaze, whilst some dogs were good at following the human gaze in some experiments, it is not a universal skill and, like the pointing gestures, is rife with potential confounds which need to be ironed out.
Many of the experiments you're reading have been updated to indicate that reading too much into these communicative gestures is risky until more of the confounds have been controlled or eliminated.
However, to turn things around, experiments have indicated that humans are very good at following a dog's gaze (because we are a very visually oriented species), and there is a good degree of evidence to suggest that dogs use our ability so that they can direct us in to something they want but can't access. Again, we've all seen this in our own dogs... something's hidden under the couch, the dog looks at us until he gets our attention, looks back towards the hidden object, looks back at us etc, until we come and get it for him.

It also showed that this was selected for/evolved over time

Well, the selection element is not shown beyond a shadow of a doubt to be the only force at work here: there are quite a few confounds to this experimental technique with dogs which are currently in the process of being investigated with a view to reducing or eliminating them. There are several schools of thought on the origins of dog-human communication, the lab whose work you're reading holds one of these opinions.

The experiments(and others previously) did indeed show chimps didn't "get" pointing to nearly the same degree, regardless of how they were engaged.

Actually, more recent research has indicated that chimps do not see the world in the "pointy" way as we interpret it, but experimenters are starting to develop different ways of asking this question of chimps, with considerably more success than straightforward pointing. Indeed, experimental techniques for pointing also have to be modified for dogs, depending on a number of their physical characteristics.
In any case, the experiments you're reading used a very limited number of chimps to test the theory: only the odd individual chimp who has lived life in captivity has been tested.

I would personally suspect other animals, in particular social predators might get the concept better. Makes sense. The ability to pick out a prey animal from the herd and communicate that to other members of the pride/pack/group would be a serious advantage.

But chimps are social predators. They have highly sophisticated social hunting patterns, so on the face of it one would imagine that they'd use and understand pointing gestures amongst themselves. And it seems likely that in a manner of speaking, they do... we just haven't quite figured out what they are yet.
Your above quoted personal suspicion about communication amongst social hunters is one that has been published in many research papers and books in years gone by.

DBB

TooManyDogs wrote: »

To the point of entering the house through an out of context entry way, my sis in law came over to visit with her brother, she minds the house when we're away so the dogs know her well. We were on the way home, about 10 mins away but bro in law had the bright idea to go into the back garden and go in the open window!!!! Not a good plan My lab x simply wouldn't let him in, then my sis in law tried and he wouldnt let her in either!! As far as he's concerned people simply don't come into the house through the window. When we got home and let them in the front door Oscar ran over to sis in law delighted to see her!

An interesting experiment! But I think you've hit the nail on the head here TMD... in the case of burglars, I think that it's the fact that they appear out of context that triggers a reaction in dogs.
So, whilst the dog might not react to OP when he's out checking the cattle, presumably other parts of the sequence are in context: other people are up around the house, lights are on, OP moving about has a certain outline and mannerism that the dog recognises. But it's not "usual" when lights are off, family are in bed, and a stranger appears from an unexpected direction.

Zapperzy

My cat understands what I mean when I point at the utility room door and avert my eyes towards it, also understands if instead of pointing I verbally say into bed bunty. Also occasionally works in other rooms if I want to herd her upstairs or out of the sitting room.

If the dog's tennis ball gets stuck under the coffee table he will look at someone then look at the table and then back to us. Also understands that me pointing at a tennis ball means go get it.

Mad really when u really think about how much they understand, we really underestimate them!

TooManyDogs

DBB wrote: »

An interesting experiment!

I had often wondered how they'd react, particularily Oscar cos he's the 'voice', if someone tried to break in but wasn't expecting him to stop sis in law! Poor girl, she was so offended when he then tried to say hi to her when we got home after snarling and snapping 10 mins earlier

I have to say, dogs are amazing, they understand so much more than we could ever believe. I'm sure Oscar knew my Mam had cancer before it was even diagnosed, I got him at 1 year old and immediately he started protecting my mam, he'd lie between her and strangers/doors/activity and if a stranger came too close at a dog show he'd stand up and start gruffing and then barking at them. My mam would tell him it was plenty and he'd settle down again but still watchful until they went some distance away. In the 8 subsequent years I've had him he's never shown that kind of behaviour with anyone else.

borderlinemeath

My two know the difference between the neighbours and "anybody else".
They're not guard dogs, but will vocalise if somebody walks or cycles by the house that they don't know - they can't see out, there's a wall a fence and a hedge and tall wooden gates (sounds like fort knox, but it's all for their benefit:D). Somebody goes by and there's mayhem, running up and down, standing tall, tails out and a deep bark that sounds like it's coming from a much bigger dog!

*in particular Benson puts on this deep "big dog" bark, his normal bark is a high pitched excited bark, more like a yelp.

However if one of the neighbours walks by it's a totally different reaction, they're just excited to see their "friends" as they consider them - one minds them if we're away and the other walks with me most mornings through the fields.

Coco totally gets pointing, but Benson is a bit slower on the uptake, he's getting there, but it's just taking time.

star-pants

Cedrus wrote: »

Rather immoderate tone for a Moderator.

Firstly they're not a moderator in this forum, so they're just like any other poster. Secondly, if you have an issue with a post, please use the report post function (red triangle with ! in it). Please do not respond to this post on thread.

DBB

borderlinemeath wrote: »

*in particular Benson puts on this deep "big dog" bark, his normal bark is a high pitched excited bark, more like a yelp.

The researchers who have been working on the pointing gestures, the alternating gaze, and the bark recognition, are in the middle of some fascinating research into what Benson is doing... They're examining how dogs may modulate the tone of their bark in order to make the invader think the dog is bigger and braver than he actually is!
A lot of the stuff they're researching is stuff we kinda already were aware of, as dog owners and watchers. But this team are measuring it to establish the true basis and origins behind behaviours we may take for granted, and indeed such research can help to abolish many an old-wire's-tale in the face of good evidence.

Lpfsox

TooManyDogs wrote: »

... To the point of entering the house through an out of context entry way, my sis in law came over to visit with her brother, she minds the house when we're away so the dogs know her well. We were on the way home, about 10 mins away but bro in law had the bright idea to go into the back garden and go in the open window!!!! Not a good plan My lab x simply wouldn't let him in, then my sis in law tried and he wouldnt let her in either!! As far as he's concerned people simply don't come into the house through the window. When we got home and let them in the front door Oscar ran over to sis in law delighted to see her!

similar story: years ago my brother decided to hop over the back wall on his way home from the pub, having forgotten his front door key (back door also locked, but alcohol has a way of confusing him in these matters...). 2 dogs at the time slept in kennels, the collie point blank refused to let him over the back wall but also took hold of his foot and stopped him getting back over the wall too. He had to sit straddling the wall until he managed to wake someone up to let him in. The dogs were family pets and knew exactly who he was and were in no way threatened by him but they just decided that you don't enter the house via the garden wall and that was that.

Current dog (also a border collie) must see all visitors being invited through the front door at least once, after that they're his pals. If he doesn't see them being welcomed in then he's wary of them until introduced properly.

getz

seamus wrote: »

I really think they are excellent at spotting subtle cues in people's body language to ascertain what they're like.

The JRT we had growing up was a fairly friendly girl. Suited herself most of the time, but would generally go over and greet visitors with a wagging tail and by rolling over onto her back. Never ever showed any aggression unless we wound her up.

I have a crazy aunt who lives abroad. Proper nuts, shrill, hysterical and has no "off" button. Starts talking the minute she enters the room and doesn't stop. Goes bonkers happy when she sees children or animals.
She hadn't come home for about 8 years and so had never met the JRT. So she comes home one year, walks into our kitchen and before she'd even opened her mouth, the dog ran under the kitchen table. "Where's the dog" she asks, leans down to have a look, and the JRT starts growling at her.
We broke our hearts laughing but we were also stunned because she had never done that for anyone before, but instantly disliked this aunt (we didn't blame her ).
We had no other explanation except that the JRT instantly recognised physical and verbal cues which told her to be wary of this woman. Brilliant.

Although my Staffie might be a counter-argument to that. She misinterprets people staring at her on the street as someone looking to give her a cuddle and makes a beeline for them. I laugh when you get idiots who fall over themselves or bang into walls to try and get by us quicker (no, I don't let the dog go near them).

yes but staffies are people dogs,and just live for attention ,thats why they are easily stolen ,they will walk away with anyone,as all are friends

TooManyDogs

Lpfsox wrote: »

He had to sit straddling the wall until he managed to wake someone up to let him in.

Current dog (also a border collie) must see all visitors being invited through the front door at least once, after that they're his pals

I was in knots laughing at the idea of your drunken brother sitting on the wall til morning

My Oscar is similar, I trust my plumber and would happily let him come in on his own but I always have to make sure Oscar sees me let them come in before I leave or he won't let him out of his van!! It's a real case of "I know you and I like you but I can't let you in until the boss lady comes home"

Lpfsox

brother sees the funny side of it now but he was fairly annoyed at the time... more so because he'd bought chips on his way home and was chucking the chips at the dog as a bribe - dog ate the chips but still wouldn't let him off the wall!

that dog was class, had him from 8 weeks old up until 2 years ago when he died at age 16. RIP H.