Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

Doom

It would be money and resources better spent tackling the gang and scumbag problem in Limerick

Lumbo

Judge Eamon O’Brien told one accused man who had requested free legal aid because he was on social welfare: “I’m not granting free legal aid. If you can afford a lady of the night, you can afford a solicitor.”

So he is going to get rode.

Fear Uladh

biko wrote: »

it's one of the worst crimes against women.

Right so, in your opinion, all of these women prostitutes, who choose to sell their bodies for money, are victims of crime?

Seriously that is a fairly unfair and skewed way of looking at things.

carfiosaoorl

Seachmall wrote: »

And feminists. Don't forget the feminists.


I want it to remain legal to ensure women aren't being forced into prostitution, so diseases aren't being spread, so crime isn't being funded by it and because women, not the law, should be in control of their bodies and what they do with them.

It is illegal to solicit a postitute, women are trafficed and forced into prostitution very day. In places where protitution is completely legal like Amsterdam they have a massive human trafficing problem.
I agree women should have the right to do what they want with their own bodies but the lives of the women who dont have the choice need to be protected first.

Ickle Magoo

Fear Uladh wrote: »

Someone who enjoys money no doubt.

Yep, well known for producing all those millionaires, the auld prostitution - jumping out their lamborghinis to turn tricks, they are joe.

Fear Uladh

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

but the lives of the women who dont have the choice need to be protected first.

Legalising and regulating it would achieve a massive step in preventing this, yet you are anti-legislation. :rolleyes:

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

It is illegal to solicit a postitute

Nope, it's not.

Perfectly legal.

28064212

Doom wrote: »

It would be money and resources better spent tackling the gang and scumbag problem in Limerick

It would be money and resources better spent tackling human trafficking and forced prostitution, instead of making a crime out of a transaction between two consenting adults

carfiosaoorl

Fear Uladh wrote: »

Legalising and regulating it would achieve a massive step in preventing this, yet you are anti-legislation. :rolleyes:

How so?

Ickle Magoo

Seachmall wrote: »

Nope, it's not.

Perfectly legal.

Actually, soliciting is illegal under Irish law...have a read of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act of 1993.

Fear Uladh

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Yep, well known for producing all those millionaires, the auld prostitution - jumping out their lamborghinis to turn tricks, they are joe.

That is what some of them believe, yes.

carfiosaoorl

Seachmall wrote: »

Nope, it's not.

Perfectly legal.

Its illegal to solicit a prostitute on the street

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

How so?

Because women on the street aren't protected from pimps, diseases or clients.

Women who are licensed are.

Its illegal to solicit a prostitute on the street

A law I agree with.

28064212

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

How so?

Why do you think prostitutes work in back-alleys, often for criminals involved in other areas or crime? Do you think there's a possibility it might be because they have no legal method to trade? If they had the option of being self-employed, or entitled to worker's rights, then maybe, just maybe, they might be better protected.

Can you answer this question: a woman decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a prostitute. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, she practices sex that is as safe as possible and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why? Should her clients be criminalised? Why?

Fear Uladh

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

How so?

This

28064212 wrote: »

It would be money and resources better spent tackling human trafficking and forced prostitution, instead of making a crime out of a transaction between two consenting adults

El Weirdo

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Actually, soliciting is illegal under Irish law...have a read of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act of 1993.

Maybe have a read of it yourself. Pertinant part bolded.

A person who in a street or public place solicits or importunes another person or other persons for the purposes of prostitution shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding

Fear Uladh

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Actually, soliciting is illegal under Irish law...have a read of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act of 1993.

So the women selling sex should be held to rights as much as the men buying it?

Seachmall

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Actually, soliciting is illegal under Irish law...have a read of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act of 1993.

I have, it's not illegal.

jester77

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Actually, soliciting is illegal under Irish law...have a read of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act of 1993.

That's it lads, no more buying drink for women in clubs

Logical Fallacy

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

People think it should be illegal because it should be. Why would you want it legalised

Why should it be illegal?

AhSureTisGrand

To be fair to the men I would never have suspected it was a trap. Not once in my life have I seen a bangharda worth soliciting

SIMPLYTHE

Sin City wrote: »

That may be true of street walkers but not true.of escorts who do choose the job freely . don't believe all the turn off the red light bull**** , religious fanatics who to demonise the sex industry claiming that all sex workers are held against their will. Read turn off the blue light, the sex workers side of the coin

The Daily Mail recently exposed that Burn off the BLUE LIGHT was set up by a convicted Pimp...a delightful fellow I'd say...
Wake Up.

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Amsterdam they have a massive human trafficing problem.

Maybe, but I guarantee it has nothing to do with it's legal prostitutes.

Amsterdam's legal prostitutes are regulated. That means they're in the country legally, it means they're checked for diseases regularly, it means they're self-employed, it means their profit doesn't go to crime, it means security is provided should there be an incident and it means they're safe.

carfiosaoorl

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Why should it be illegal?

It should be illegal because the amount of women harmed by it far out way the ones who do it gladly. Legalising it will not get rid of the criminal element. It will always be in the hands of underground criminals. As I said before countries like the netherlands where it is completely legal has a massive human trafficing problem. Do you honestly think legalising it could work and be policed adequately to protect vulnerable people?

carfiosaoorl

Seachmall wrote: »

Maybe, but I guarantee it has nothing to do with it's legal prostitutes.

Amsterdam's legal prostitutes are regulated. That means they're in the country legally, it means they're checked for diseases regularly, it means they're self-employed, it means their profit doesn't go to crime, it means security is provided should there be an incident and it means they're safe.

You'd be wrong in thinking that, have a quick google.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands

The Netherlands is listed by the UNODC as a top destination for victims of human trafficking.[25] Countries that are major sources of trafficked persons include Thailand, China, Nigeria, Albania, Bulgaria, Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine,[25] Sierra Leone, and Romania.[26]

Currently, human trafficking in the Netherlands is on the rise, according to figures obtained from the National Centre against Human Trafficking. The report shows a substantial increase in the number of victims from Hungary and China. There were 809 registered victims of human trafficking in 2008, 763 were women and at least 60 percent of them were forced to work in the sex industry.[27] [28]

Within the Netherlands, victims are often recruited by so called "loverboys" – men who seduce young Dutch women and girls and later coerce them into prostitution. The phenomenon was highlighted in 2008 by Maria Mosterd, who published a book about her ordeal as the 12-year-old victim of a loverboy.[29] The truthfulness of this book is disputed, and was the subject of an investigative journalism report. [30]

Many victims of human trafficking are led to believe by organized criminals that they are being offered work in hotels or restaurants or in child care and are forced into prostitution with the threat or actual use of violence. Estimates of the number of victims vary from 1000 to 7000 on a yearly basis. Most police investigations on human trafficking concern legal sex businesses. All sectors of prostitution are well represented in these investigations, but particularly the window brothels are overrepresented. [31] [32] [33]

At the end of 2008, a gang of six people were sentenced to prison terms of eight months to 7½ years in what prosecutors said was the worst case of human trafficking ever brought to trial in the Netherlands. The case involved more than 100 female victims, violently forced to work in prostitution.[34] In December 2009, two Nigerian men were sentenced to 4 and 4½ years in prison for having smuggled 140 Nigerian women aged 16–23 into the Netherlands. The women were made to apply for asylum and then disappeared from asylum centers, to work as prostitutes in surrounding countries. The men were said to have used "voodoo" curses on the women to prevent escape and enforce payment of debts.[35]

[edit] References

I know its only wiki but its an example

28064212

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

It should be illegal because the amount of women harmed by it far out way the ones who do it gladly. Legalising it will not get rid of the criminal element.

So the gardaí should chase after both the ones who do it gladly and the ones who are harmed by it, instead of being able to devote all their resources to the latter group?

scholar007

jester77 wrote: »

That's it lads, no more buying drink for women in clubs

Women marry men for money all the time so who exactly is using who?

SIMPLYTHE

Doom wrote: »

It would be money and resources better spent tackling the gang and scumbag problem in Limerick

Prostitution is closely linked with gang crime. An article that was published last week (I can't remember where, but I'll post it when I do) said that gangs running prostitution rings see Ireland as an easy target due to our poor enforcement....so if this stance of stronger enforcement is to continue amongst the judiciary, it may in fact help significantly to curtail existing and incoming gangs... happy days.

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

It should be illegal because the amount of women harmed by it far out way the ones who do it gladly. Legalising it will not get rid of the criminal element. It will always be in the hands of underground criminals. As I said before countries like the netherlands where it is completely legal has a massive human trafficing problem. Do you honestly think legalising it could work and be policed adequately to protect vulnerable people?

First of all IT IS LEGAL, it's not a question of "legalising" it.

Second of all the women you speak of are the ones operating illegally.

Third of all keeping it legal will greatly reduce the criminal element in it. There are agencies set up, most entirely run by women, that contract the work to the legal escorts. These agencies cover most expenses in terms of providing condoms and health checks (which are tax deductible too). These agencies are as regulated as any other legit business and any indication there is a criminal element involved would bring a ****storm on top of them.

The idea that it should be illegal is the equivalent of sweeping it under the rug. Prostitution will continue whether you like it or not, now the question is "How do we protect them?".

SIMPLYTHE

Fear Uladh wrote: »

Legalising and regulating it would achieve a massive step in preventing this, yet you are anti-legislation. :rolleyes:

This is simply not true. Please research the prostitution problem in Amsterdam. Their legalisation of same has increased human trafficking enormously, among with gang and drug activity. I'd recommend you look up what the Mayor of Amsterdam himself said about the situation recently - that Amsterdam "made a mistake" thinking that legalising it would make it safer for women... It doesn't.

Logical Fallacy

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

It should be illegal because the amount of women harmed by it far out way the ones who do it gladly. Legalising it will not get rid of the criminal element. It will always be in the hands of underground criminals. As I said before countries like the netherlands where it is completely legal has a massive human trafficing problem. Do you honestly think legalising it could work and be policed adequately to protect vulnerable people?

I think legalising it would give a better option with regard to dept of policing and care for women who find themselves in that line of work that is currently given.

But yeah, lets just do what we have always done...and we will all pretend like it is helping.

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

This is simply not true. Please research the prostitution problem in Amsterdam. Their legalisation of same has increased human trafficking enormously, among with gang and drug activity. I'd recommend you look up what the Mayor of Amsterdam himself said about the situation recently - that Amsterdam "made a mistake" thinking that legalising it would make it safer for women... It doesn't.

Once again, we would need to adequately study exactly what they did to police it and how they enforced assorted laws and standards.

It's pointless to call something a failure without discussing why, and how it could possibly be improved upon.

28064212

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

Prostitution is closely linked with gang crime

As was alcohol in America during the 20s. Why? Because it was made illegal, and control of alcohol was passed to criminals

Sin City

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

Sin City wrote: »

That may be true of street walkers but not true.of escorts who do choose the job freely . don't believe all the turn off the red light bull**** , religious fanatics who to demonise the sex industry claiming that all sex workers are held against their will. Read turn off the blue light, the sex workers side of the coin

The Daily Mail recently exposed that Burn off the BLUE LIGHT was set up by a convicted Pimp...a delightful fellow I'd say...
Wake Up.

Yeah the tabloid media are going to true give facts
Wake up

SIMPLYTHE

28064212 wrote: »

As was alcohol in America during the 20s. Why? Because it was made illegal, and control of alcohol was passed to criminals

maybe I should of added onto that sentence "particularly in countries in which prostitution is LEGAL" - Amsterdam...check it out. It's a great example of how the authorities thought they were doing the right thing to protect people and it backfired horribly...

SIMPLYTHE

Sin City wrote: »

Yeah the tabloid media are going to true give facts
Wake up

Well maybe then you would like to read the words of PHD Melissa Farley on post traumatic stress disorder in prostitutes...she also cites numerous studies in her works that all say the same thing.... countries which have legalised prostitution fully have increased the amount of prostitution, human trafficking and gang related activity.

Ireland's in a mess at the moment. The last thing we need is an increase in the above...

Ormus

Maybe we should take a vote.

Illegal - Who would like prostitution to be controlled by criminals?

Legal - Who would like prostitution to be regulated?

Are there any people who think that making prostitution illegal will result in there being no more prostitution?

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

You'd be wrong in thinking that, have a quick google.
[...]

I know its only wiki but its an example

We're talking about legal prostitution, Amsterdam, like every country in the world, has a huge underground sex market. There's no indication there that they operated as legal prostitutes.

I'm not being pedantic on this matter. The red light district is huge real estate in the industry (obviously) and those windows aren't cheap and the prostitutes that operate in them are absolutely regulated. The words in the articles linked also indicate the women weren't regulated
All 45 victims are women, who have likely been put to work in the sex industry.

Like I said, the market will always be there and people will be there to satisfy it. Regulation on these matters is always better than criminals having control of it.

SIMPLYTHE wrote:

The last thing we need is an increase in the above...

We wouldn't have an increase because it's already legal.

AhSureTisGrand

How about we take the money we spend cracking down on prostitution and use it to crack down on criminal gangs?

carfiosaoorl

Seachmall wrote: »

We're talking about legal prostitution, Amsterdam, like every country in the world, has a huge underground sex market. There's no indication there that they operated as legal prostitutes.

I'm not being pedantic on this matter. The red light district is huge real estate in the industry (obviously) and those windows aren't cheap and the prostitutes that operate in them are absolutely regulated. The words in the articles linked also indicate the women weren't regulated
All 45 victims are women, who have likely been put to work in the sex industry.

Like I said, the market will always be there and people will be there to satisfy it. Regulation on these matters is always better than criminals having control of it.

We wouldn't have an increase because it's already legal.

The article clearly states that most police investigations on human trafficing concern legal sex businesses.

seamus

Ellis Dee wrote: »

I'm not sufficiently familiar with the law in Ireland, but wonder what the position would be if fellows who proposition women on the street for sex begin by asking the woman: "Hi, are you a Garda, by any chance?" If she then replies "No", he can continue by asking her what she'll charge him for a ride, etc. ---

Would it be entrapment on the part of a Garda to deny what she was a police officer/decoy and then allow the prospective "client" to continue propositioning?

No. Entrapment basically requires that the offender intended to commit the crime.

Asking whether they are a Garda in the first place means that they had already intended to commit the crime.

"Entrapment" doesn't mean "tricked into being caught" it means, "tricked into committing a crime".

The easiest way to think of it is;

- Walking up to someone and asking if they want to buy drugs. That's entrapment. That person may not have intended buying drugs until you made the offer to them.

- Standing around looking shifty and arresting anyone who asks if you're selling drugs. That's not entrapment. The person was looking to buy drugs and decided to ask you.

scholar007

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Does anyone know what the legal position might be?

I'd say the Ban Garda would be on top.

SIMPLYTHE

Ormus wrote: »

Maybe we should take a vote.

Illegal - Who would like prostitution to be controlled by criminals?

Legal - Who would like prostitution to be regulated?

Are there any people who think that making prostitution illegal will result in there being no more prostitution?

Obviously you haven't read up on Amsterdam - please see above. In short, it's run by criminal gangs. Your above summarised approach does not reflect reality. Honestly, it makes really interesting reading, it's not what you'd expect...

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

The article clearly states that most police investigations on human trafficing concern legal sex businesses.

Granted, I clearly missed that.

But of course a failing to regulate the industry properly is not representative of the industry itself.

I'd like to see numbers on Ireland, it is legal here afterall so the claims presented by the anti-legalisation group should be supported by some findings.

SIMPLYTHE

Seachmall wrote: »

We're talking about legal prostitution, Amsterdam, like every country in the world, has a huge underground sex market. There's no indication there that they operated as legal prostitutes.

I'm not being pedantic on this matter. The red light district is huge real estate in the industry (obviously) and those windows aren't cheap and the prostitutes that operate in them are absolutely regulated. The words in the articles linked also indicate the women weren't regulated
All 45 victims are women, who have likely been put to work in the sex industry.

Like I said, the market will always be there and people will be there to satisfy it. Regulation on these matters is always better than criminals having control of it.

We wouldn't have an increase because it's already legal.

sorry, but you are being pedantic. Ireland's situation currently is not commensurate with the likes of Amsterdam or Germany. Once Prostitution is fully legalised, it is extremely hard to regulate -hence human trafficking, gang and drug activity balloon.

You seem to presume that fully legalising it will mean that it is completely controlled by the State and it will be fully regulated and criminal involvement will decrease... This has not been successfully done anywhere else - why in God's name would you presume that it could be done successfully in IRELAND of all places after we've cocked up just about everything else we've tried in the last while (excuse the pun).

SIMPLYTHE

Seachmall wrote: »

Granted, I clearly missed that.

But of course a failing to regulate the industry properly is not representative of the industry itself.

QUOTE]

Surely the fact that numerous countries have tried to regulate fully- legalised prostitution and have failed horrendously is representative of the industry itself though?

Ormus

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

Obviously you haven't read up on Amsterdam - please see above. In short, it's run by criminal gangs. Your above summarised approach does not reflect reality. Honestly, it makes really interesting reading, it's not what you'd expect...

I was being sarcastic.

Seachmall

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

Once Prostitution is fully legalised, it is extremely hard to regulate -hence human trafficking, gang and drug activity balloon.

You seem to presume that fully legalising it will mean that it is completely controlled by the State and it will be fully regulated and criminal involvement will decrease... This has not been successfully done anywhere else - why in God's name would you presume that it could be done successfully in IRELAND of all places after we've cocked up just about everything else we've tried in the last while (excuse the pun).

Prostitution here isn't tolerated, it's not decriminalized, it's completely 100% legal. You can't get more legal than legal.

Surely the fact that numerous countries have tried to regulate fully- legalised prostitution and have failed horrendously is representative of the industry itself though?

Not necessarily, illegal imports of cigarettes are huge here (and most other countries aswell I'd imagine), doesn't mean the tobacco industry is one that should be abolished (at least not for that reason).

jerry2623

Not sure why the Mods have a problem with these guys been named ...
The amount of people forced into this business is huge and there pimps are violent and harsh bastrds who do not give one damm

and the people listed below are no better than the people who run these girls scum of the lowest order

They are: Denis Enright (52), of Dromin, Listowel, Kerry; John Galvin (63), of Carrigeen, Croom, Co Limerick; Noel Mason (52), of Monaskeha, Clonlara, Co Clare; Valentin Munteanu, (28), of Kilmore, Grange, Co Limerick; Wayne Murphy (25), of Singland House, Ballysimon, Limerick; Noel O’Brien (27), of Ballingoola, Grange, Co Limerick; Krzysztof Poczynski (24), of Crestwood, Kilteragh, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Gary Stack (67), of Druimeen, Ennis, Co Clare; Adam Pustkowski (36), of Vartery Avenue, Raheen, Limerick; Derek Power, (49), of Glantan, Castletroy, Limerick; Patrick Quilty (38), of Castletown, Pallaskenry, Co Limerick; Gearoid Phelan (23), of Castletroy View, Childers Road, Limerick; Conor Carey (33), of Corelish, Pallasgreen, Co Limerick; Eamon Coffee (42), of Mortalstown, Ardpatrick, Kilmallock, Co Limerick; Michael Dorman (51), of Borrigone, Askeaton, Co Limerick; Serghei Boldescu (31), of The Grove, Huntsfield, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Séamus Keane (59), of Coolreiry, Castleconnell, Co Limerick; James Lynch (49), of Mayne, Kilmeady, Co Limerick; Dimitri Yakovlev (40), Parkview Court, Lord Edward Street, Limerick city; Makki Mutaz (45), of Foxes Bow, Limerick city; and Michael Ryan (63), of Knocka Lower, Drom, Templemore, Co Tipperary. Each man admitted offering money for sex at various locations in Limerick city centre.

carfiosaoorl

Prostitution here is legal in that its legal for a woman to prostitute herself but a lot of components of it are illegal. Its illegal to solicit on the street. Its illegal to run a brothel or to pimp. My point is that all of the parts of it that are illegal should remain so. Its not possible to completely legalise it and protect women.

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Prostitution here is legal in that its legal for a woman to prostitute herself but a lot of components of it are illegal. Its illegal to solicit on the street. Its illegal to run a brothel or to pimp. My point is that all of the parts of it that are illegal should remain so.

I completely agree. Ireland has a surprisingly progressive approach to prostitution. However I think the naming and shaming of those individuals is ridiculous. The judge is essentially saying they can't be prosecuted by the courts of the law so he has them prosecuted by the media. Absolutely ridiculous and not how our courts should be operating.

Its not possible to completely legalise it and protect women.

It is completely legal though.