Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

smash

kraggy wrote: »

21 men charged and plead guilty to soliciting females on various streets in Limerick.

The women they were soliciting were gardai posing as prostitutes.

Turn up with a camera and tell them you'll pay them to let you take naked photos. If they're a hooker, wait 'til their naked and then tell them you want to bone them instead. A member of the Gardia won't get as far as taking her kit off, and you can't get arrested for being a photographer!

Ormus

jerry2623 wrote: »

Not sure why the Mods have a problem with these guys been named ...
The amount of people forced into this business is huge and there pimps are violent and harsh bastrds who do not give one damm

and the people listed below are no better than the people who run these girls scum of the lowest order

They are: Denis Enright (52), of Dromin, Listowel, Kerry; John Galvin (63), of Carrigeen, Croom, Co Limerick; Noel Mason (52), of Monaskeha, Clonlara, Co Clare; Valentin Munteanu, (28), of Kilmore, Grange, Co Limerick; Wayne Murphy (25), of Singland House, Ballysimon, Limerick; Noel O’Brien (27), of Ballingoola, Grange, Co Limerick; Krzysztof Poczynski (24), of Crestwood, Kilteragh, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Gary Stack (67), of Druimeen, Ennis, Co Clare; Adam Pustkowski (36), of Vartery Avenue, Raheen, Limerick; Derek Power, (49), of Glantan, Castletroy, Limerick; Patrick Quilty (38), of Castletown, Pallaskenry, Co Limerick; Gearoid Phelan (23), of Castletroy View, Childers Road, Limerick; Conor Carey (33), of Corelish, Pallasgreen, Co Limerick; Eamon Coffee (42), of Mortalstown, Ardpatrick, Kilmallock, Co Limerick; Michael Dorman (51), of Borrigone, Askeaton, Co Limerick; Serghei Boldescu (31), of The Grove, Huntsfield, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Séamus Keane (59), of Coolreiry, Castleconnell, Co Limerick; James Lynch (49), of Mayne, Kilmeady, Co Limerick; Dimitri Yakovlev (40), Parkview Court, Lord Edward Street, Limerick city; Makki Mutaz (45), of Foxes Bow, Limerick city; and Michael Ryan (63), of Knocka Lower, Drom, Templemore, Co Tipperary. Each man admitted offering money for sex at various locations in Limerick city centre.

They are sad and desperate men. To say that they're as bad as pimps or human traffickers is incredibly naive.

SIMPLYTHE

Seachmall wrote: »

Prostitution here isn't tolerated, it's not decriminalized, it's completely 100% legal. You can't get more legal than legal.
Not necessarily, illegal imports of cigarettes are huge here (and most other countries aswell I'd imagine), doesn't mean the tobacco industry is one that should be abolished (at least not for that reason).

Missing the point....my point is you seem to presume that legalising prostitution makes it safe for prostitutes and is overall a good thing, but you seem not to accept that fully opening up the prostution market here will lead to an increase in negative things.. and I say WILL because that's what's happened everywhere else...I don't know why you'd presume Ireland would be any different.

People is not cigarettes monsieur.

mconigol

Has Limerick not got worse problems?

RGDATA!

bound to have been someone driving round limerick who recognised one of these women and thought - 'jaysus, i thought she used to be in the guards! times must be hard!"

jerry2623

Sad and Desperate they maybe . Not sure you would have the same reaction if it was your kid sister they were Banging away at.
OR maybe who is married to your sister or kid and having unprotected sex with one of the Gentlemen named above

scholar007

jerry2623 wrote: »

Not sure why the Mods have a problem with these guys been named ...
The amount of people forced into this business is huge and there pimps are violent and harsh bastrds who do not give one damm

and the people listed below are no better than the people who run these girls scum of the lowest order

They are: Denis Enright (52), of Dromin, Listowel, Kerry; John Galvin (63), of Carrigeen, Croom, Co Limerick; Noel Mason (52), of Monaskeha, Clonlara, Co Clare; Valentin Munteanu, (28), of Kilmore, Grange, Co Limerick; Wayne Murphy (25), of Singland House, Ballysimon, Limerick; Noel O’Brien (27), of Ballingoola, Grange, Co Limerick; Krzysztof Poczynski (24), of Crestwood, Kilteragh, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Gary Stack (67), of Druimeen, Ennis, Co Clare; Adam Pustkowski (36), of Vartery Avenue, Raheen, Limerick; Derek Power, (49), of Glantan, Castletroy, Limerick; Patrick Quilty (38), of Castletown, Pallaskenry, Co Limerick; Gearoid Phelan (23), of Castletroy View, Childers Road, Limerick; Conor Carey (33), of Corelish, Pallasgreen, Co Limerick; Eamon Coffee (42), of Mortalstown, Ardpatrick, Kilmallock, Co Limerick; Michael Dorman (51), of Borrigone, Askeaton, Co Limerick; Serghei Boldescu (31), of The Grove, Huntsfield, Dooradoyle, Limerick; Séamus Keane (59), of Coolreiry, Castleconnell, Co Limerick; James Lynch (49), of Mayne, Kilmeady, Co Limerick; Dimitri Yakovlev (40), Parkview Court, Lord Edward Street, Limerick city; Makki Mutaz (45), of Foxes Bow, Limerick city; and Michael Ryan (63), of Knocka Lower, Drom, Templemore, Co Tipperary. Each man admitted offering money for sex at various locations in Limerick city centre.

Lets line them all up and shoot them so!

Seriously anyone handy in the aul graphs department who could throw up a graph showing the spread (unfortunate word I know) of the ages, it might help us to identify the danger age for men who would be seduced by a shameless hussy and we could get the HSE on board to come up with a park and ride prevention programme. Obviously there would have to be ongoing support to ensue they don't lapse not to mention the aftercare.

carfiosaoorl

Seachmall wrote: »

I completely agree. Ireland has a surprisingly progressive approach to prostitution. However I think the naming and shaming of those individuals is ridiculous. The judge is essentially saying they can't be prosecuted by the courts of the law so he has them prosecuted by the media. Absolutely ridiculous and not how our courts should be operating.

It is completely legal though.

How did the judge say they couldnt be prosecuted by the court of law If that was the case their case would never have made it to court, they would not have pleaded guity been found guilty and been ordered to pay a fine. Are you saying they were fined for not breaking the law.

Seachmall

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

Missing the point....my point is you seem to presume that legalising prostitution makes it safe for prostitutes and is overall a good thing, but you seem not to accept that fully opening up the prostution market here will lead to an increase in negative things.. and I say WILL because that's what's happened everywhere else...I don't know why you'd presume Ireland would be any different.

I don't accept that fully opening up the prostitution market here will lead to an increase in negative things because the prostitution market has been fully open since the 1970s, in fact I'm not even sure if prostitution here was ever anything but "fully open".

Why do you think that it will suddenly turn to **** when it hasn't thus far?

People is not cigarettes monsieur.

Obviously an analogy...

carfiosaoorl wrote:

How did the judge say they couldnt be prosecuted by the court of law

I'm saying the fact they were named and shamed seems to me like the judge, or police, has a problem with prostitution's legal status and because he couldn't prosecute these men for looking for prostitutes he released their names to the public as a sort of act of "justice" to deter others from soliciting prostitutes.

Remember they weren't arrested for soliciting prostitutes, they were done for doing it in public. If it were done online they wouldn't have committed a crime.

howamidifferent

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

How did the judge say they couldnt be prosecuted by the court of law If that was the case their case would never have made it to court, they would not have pleaded guity been found guilty and been ordered to pay a fine. Are you saying they were fined for not breaking the law.

They were fined for solicitation in public, not trying to have sex with a prostitute.
Solicitation in public is the crime, not the payment of money for sex.

carfiosaoorl

Seachmall wrote: »

I don't accept that fully opening up the prostitution market here will lead to an increase in negative things because the prostitution market has been fully open since the 1970s, in fact I'm not even sure if prostitution here was ever anything but "fully open".

Why do you think that it will suddenly turn to **** when it hasn't thus far?

Obviously an analogy...

I'm saying the fact they were named and shamed seems to me like the judge, or police, has a problem with prostitution's legal status and because he couldn't prosecute these men for looking for prostitutes he released their names to the public as a sort of act of "justice" to deter others from soliciting prostitutes.

Remember they weren't arrested for soliciting prostitutes, they were done for doing it in public. If it were done online they wouldn't have committed a crime.

I see in the court pages of my local paper every week the names of numerous people who have broken the law and were prosecuted in court. Why do these men deserve to have their crime kept hidden?

Ormus

The naming and shaming is used to punish them beyond the means of the law.

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

I see in the court pages of my local paper every week the names of numerous people who have broken the law and were prosecuted in court. Why do these men deserve to have their crime kept hidden?

I wasn't aware this is a regular thing, I thought given the publicity it's getting it was an extraordinary event. Maybe it's just a slow news week.

Anyway, if that's the case then I'm fine with it.

scholar007

23
24
25
27
28
31
33
36
38
40
42
45
49
49
51
52
52
59
63
63
67

Interesting over half of them are of an age where you would expect them to be married and sexually active - Could it be that the wives had gone off sex for one reason or another and these men in order to fulfil their needs had to look elsewhere without the wherewithal to carry on what would be considered a normal relationship with another woman due to having herself at home?

Ormus

jerry2623 wrote: »

Sad and Desperate they maybe . Not sure you would have the same reaction if it was your kid sister they were Banging away at.
OR maybe who is married to your sister or kid and having unprotected sex with one of the Gentlemen named above

Your argument is ridiculous.

I'd get more angry if someone hit my sister than if someone raped a child in The Phillipines.

Does this mean I think punching is worse than rape?

SeanW

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

This is simply not true. Please research the prostitution problem in Amsterdam. Their legalisation of same has increased human trafficking enormously, among with gang and drug activity. I'd recommend you look up what the Mayor of Amsterdam himself said about the situation recently - that Amsterdam "made a mistake" thinking that legalising it would make it safer for women... It doesn't.

How about Germany? AFAIK prostitution is legal throughout the country, the business is regulated, they even have call girls' unions and everything!

28064212 wrote: »

As was alcohol in America during the 20s. Why? Because it was made illegal, and control of alcohol was passed to criminals

Hammer, Nail, Head. It's happening in all sorts of areas where authoritarians have made stupid "morality" laws like drugs, prostitution, and in 1920s America, alchohol.

The cure (criminalisation) is often worse than the supposed ailment (whatever was considered "bad" to begin with). It's just unfortunate that we are ruled by authoritarians who do not see this. We will all continue to suffer the unnecessary consequences until whenever, if ever, this changes.

carfiosaoorl

SeanW wrote: »

How about Germany? AFAIK prostitution is legal throughout the country, the business is regulated, they even have call girls' unions and everything!

Same problem as Amsterdam massive human trafficing problem.

Procasinator

scholar007 wrote: »

Lets line them all up and shoot them so!

Seriously anyone handy in the aul graphs department who could throw up a graph showing the spread (unfortunate word I know) of the ages, it might help us to identify the danger age for men who would be seduced by a shameless hussy and we could get the HSE on board to come up with a park and ride prevention programme. Obviously there would have to be ongoing support to ensue they don't lapse not to mention the aftercare.

Know you are joking, but there is no part really graphing such a small set (only 21 individuals). If you want to work off Ages though (5 year bands starting from youngest age):

23-28 : 5
29-33 : 2
34-39 : 2
40-45 : 3
46-51 : 3
52-57 : 2
58-63 : 3
64-69 : 1

Or by decades:
20s = 5, 30s = 4, 40s = 5, 50s = 4 and 60s = 3

The average age is 42.71.

Ormus

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Same problem as Amsterdam massive human trafficing problem.

Pesky unions, I hear SIPTU are knee deep in trafficking these days.

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Same problem as Amsterdam massive human trafficing problem.

It seems to be on-par with the rest of Europe.

DublinWriter

I thought operation Free Flow was cancelled?!?

Ickle Magoo

Seachmall wrote: »

It seems to be on-par with the rest of Europe.

Better than Ireland it would appear...

Seachmall

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Better than Ireland it would appear...

Yup, who'd have thunk it.

Ickle Magoo

Wikipedia in 2010?

carfiosaoorl

After legalising prostitution in 2002 Germany saw a 70% increase in human trafficing by 2010.

http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/german-s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women

Ormus

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

After legalising prostitution in 2002 Germany saw a 70% increase in human trafficing by 2010.

http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/german-s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women

Who is to say that human trafficing wouldn't have increased by 75% if prostitution hadn't been legalised.

Also, it's worth noting that almost 82% of statistics are false.

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

After legalising prostitution in 2002 Germany saw a 70% increase in human trafficing by 2010.

http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/german-s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women

Sucks to be German I guess...?

Dublin_Gunner

Michael Ryan (63), of Knocka Lower, Drom, Templemore, Co Tipperary

What a coincidence that he hails from the same place as the Garda he solicited was trained!

Unavailable for Comment

danniemcq wrote: »

shoulda asked to film it, be classed as making a porno movie not picking up a hooker and therfore be immune from prosicution and if you are brought to court or whatever you can then sue the state for defaming your character.

Hiring a hooker to make a homemade porn movie doesn't really say much for your character re defamation!! I don't think you'd do well looking for damages there. Also there's still paid sex involved. Doesn't matter if there's a hundred cameras it's still solicitation just with really good evidence against you!.

What you're thinking of I'd say is asking the girl if she's willing to take some arty naked photos in a hotel or whatever, completely hands off. There's no sexual act at all so not prostitution. Most police women obviously don't want to get naked for their job so will just immediately say no thanks which is how you know not to go with that one.

MyKeyG

latenia wrote: »

I presume the cops were young healthy specimens

Not if they were trying to pass as Limerick prostitutes.

Spunge

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

No its not entrapment. Also you cant call it an agreement between two concenting adults because most of the time it isnt. The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

lies

The_Thing

I think it is absolutely ridiculous in this day and age that the Gardai's time would be wasted on this when they are serious crimes being commited almost daily throughout Ireland - houses robbed, old folks terrorised, tiger kidnappings etc. My own sister's house was robbed a few months ago, her engagement and weddings rings stolen and I'd much rather see Garda manpower be used in catching the scumbags responsible.

I'd be really interested in seeing if any of the men arrested had previous convictions - I doubt that the teacher involved was in and out of prison like most of the scum walking our streets.

In 2010 Canadian laws banning prostitution were overturned when Judge Susan Himel declared that the laws violated a constitutional guarantee of "the rights to life, liberty and safety".

She went on to say:

"I find that the danger faced by prostitutes greatly outweighs any harm which may be faced by the public," Himel said.

"These laws, individually and together, force prostitutes to choose between their liberty interest and their right to security of the person as protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms."

Here in Ireland Ruhama have hijacked the issue of human trafficking (for which there are already laws in place) to further their own religious \ moralistic agenda with the aim of having it enshrined in Irish law. They don't want to accept that most of the people involved in in-door prostitution have made an informed choice and are working in the sex industry of their own free will.

Their own website states:

"Ruhama was founded as a joint initiative of the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters, both of which had a long history of involvement with marginalised women, including those involved in prostitution."

Nobody should be in any doubt that the Catholic church is involved when there are three nuns on Ruhama's board of directors, their "long history of involvement" includes running the Magdalene laundries and we all know how that turned out.
Irish Times Link

You never hear of Ruhama campaigning to have sex shops closed down, why not? Afterall the shops are directly profiting from sex. Ruhama know that if they went after the sex shops right now that they would be rightly laughed at, but given who they are I'd be suprised if the shops weren't on their to-do list. If they are succesful now in having their morals enshrined into law I believe they will be back in a few years time with more of the same.

I'm not in favour of red-light districts as such, but I think that what happens behind closed doors between consenting adults is none of Ruhama's or the Government's business and that Garda resources (limited as they are) could be put to much better use elsewhere.

Victor

scholar007 wrote: »

Seriously anyone handy in the aul graphs department who could throw up a graph showing the spread (unfortunate word I know) of the ages, it might help us to identify the danger age for men who would be seduced by a shameless hussy and we could get the HSE on board to come up with a park and ride prevention programme. Obviously there would have to be ongoing support to ensue they don't lapse not to mention the aftercare.

The risk group would be adult men who are capable of getting about and have money. It is a small sample, but men in their late twenties and 45-54 and early sixties are most represented.

Sonnenblumen

The oldest game in the book is caught out using the oldest trick.
Publication of details will most certainly involve more pain?

The_Thing

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

.....The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

The vast majority of the women working in the porn industry (both amateur and professional) are doing so of their own free will so why would the figures involved in prostitution be any different? More women choose the latter because they don't want the exposure(literally), but nonetheless have chosen to work in the sex industry.

Ickle Magoo

The_Thing wrote: »

...but I think that what happens behind closed doors between consenting adults is none of Ruhama's or the Government's business...

Well, that's the issue in a nutshell isn't it? In an industry synonymous with poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence - there's a fine line between "consenting adults" and exploitation...

oirishguy

I live in a country where prostitution is legal, right across from my bedroom window there is a brothel. If people want to pay for sex and priovided that it is not human trafficking, is underage or involves animals then so what. They are consenting adults. It is a profession that has been around before laws were even written and will remain no matter what they do. Naming and shaming these guys was ridiculous, it has only caused harm to their families, innocent people in this, for what, so the Gardai can look like they have taken their heads out of their arses and done something for a change. Why not focus the taxpayers money on something like tackling a criminal organization, arresting drug dealers etc instead of making examples of people, who apart from this indiscretion, are normal members in society.

anonymous_joe

oirishguy wrote: »

I live in a country where prostitution is legal, right across from my bedroom window there is a brothel. If people want to pay for sex and priovided that it is not human trafficking, is underage or involves animals then so what. They are consenting adults. It is a profession that has been around before laws were even written and will remain no matter what they do. Naming and shaming these guys was ridiculous, it has only caused harm to their families, innocent people in this, for what, so the Gardai can look like they have taken their heads out of their arses and done something for a change. Why not focus the taxpayers money on something like tackling a criminal organization, arresting drug dealers etc instead of making examples of people, who apart from this indiscretion, are normal members in society.

Plenty of Irish people live near brothels, they just don't know it, and they're illegal.

That's the danger of activities like this.

MyKeyG

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well, that's the issue in a nutshell isn't it? In an industry synonymous with poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence - there's a fine line between "consenting adults" and exploitation...

Sometimes synonymous not necessarily always.

Looking to pay for sex does not maintain poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence. The greed of evil people does. This case was a farce in my view. We have the guards seen to be doing something without tackling the real issues of society. All that happened was men, one of whom I know wouldn't say boo to a mouse, that chose to buy sex from someone they thought were consenting women were made a spectacle of.

I'd love to know how many drug deals between hardened criminals went unnoticed in Limerick that night while the guards were rounding up randy men.

70smary

i agree with you 100 %

oirishguy

MyKeyG wrote: »

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well, that's the issue in a nutshell isn't it? In an industry synonymous with poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence - there's a fine line between "consenting adults" and exploitation...

Sometimes synonymous not necessarily always.

Looking to pay for sex does not maintain poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence. The greed of evil people does. This case was a farce in my view. We have the guards seen to be doing something without tackling the real issues of society. All that happened was men, one of whom I know wouldn't say boo to a mouse, that chose to buy sex from someone they thought were consenting women were made a spectacle of.

I'd love to know how many drug deals between hardened criminals went unnoticed in Limerick that night while the guards were rounding up randy men.

You hit the nail on the head, you have 21 men, and like you one of whom I know and have always had great respect for and regardless of what happened I still do.

No one knows the reason behind it, it's easy to say they are dirty men etc but who really knows what's going on behind the scenes? Some of them could have had no luck in relationships, some may have been lonely, some just horny (they are human), their spouse could be Ill and unable to fill the need, who knows. People are always quick to judge, they see only the crime and not the motive behind it. The guards could have being putting resources to better use, I couldn't agree more with you more.

Ickle Magoo

MyKeyG wrote: »

Sometimes synonymous not necessarily always.

How do you know which is which tho? How can we tell that the prostitute being procured is drug free, pimp free, not trafficked or coerced in any way, shape or form? Given the issues they have even in countries where prostitution is legal and regulated, I don't think you can.

MyKeyG wrote: »

Looking to pay for sex does not maintain poverty, drug use, pimping, trafficking and high risk of assault and sexual violence. The greed of evil people does.

That's lovely and all but I think it's more than a little naive/blinkered to waive the associations one has to the other in reality...

MyKeyG wrote: »

This case was a farce in my view. We have the guards seen to be doing something without tackling the real issues of society. All that happened was men, one of whom I know wouldn't say boo to a mouse, that chose to buy sex from someone they thought were consenting women were made a spectacle of.

They broke the law, it may be a law you don't agree with but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as criminals when they break the law.

MyKeyG wrote: »

I'd love to know how many drug deals between hardened criminals went unnoticed in Limerick that night while the guards were rounding up randy men.

I don't disagree with the sentiments - I can't help but think 60 men in Limerick being arrested for solicitation is really not going to make a dent in the social and human issues related to prostitution...but then it IS better than sticking fingers in ears and convincing ourselves that men prowling the streets to find women they can pay to have sex with them is unrelated to a whole raft of issues and just good old adult fun...

El Weirdo

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

They broke the law, it may be a law you don't agree with but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as criminals when they break the law.

Would you have said the same about homosexuals pre-1993?

Ickle Magoo

El Weirdo wrote: »

Would you have said the same about homosexuals pre-1993?

Ooooh, spot the strawman...

El Weirdo

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Ooooh, spot the strawman...

How is that a strawman?

Ickle Magoo

El Weirdo wrote: »

How is that a strawman?

How isn't it?

El Weirdo

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

How isn't it?

I was just asking a question.

Ickle Magoo

El Weirdo wrote: »

I was just asking a question.

Maybe google strawman?

El Weirdo

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Maybe google strawman?

Please don't patronise me.

Homosexuals were breaking the law pre-1993.

If you think it's ok that these men should be treated as criminals for breaking the law then it follows that you think that it was ok for homosexuals to be treated the same for breaking the law.

Mickjg

One of the men arrested, Gary Stack from Ennis, is the former principal of Ennis National School. Very disgusting to find he has been involved in this.