Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

Mike 1972

I wish people would stop using the phrase "human traffiking" when they mean "forced prostitution" they are not necessairly the same thing.

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

Do you have a credible (i.e. not Ruhama) source for this ?

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

I'd recommend you look up what the Mayor of Amsterdam himself said about the situation recently - that Amsterdam "made a mistake" thinking that legalising it would make it safer for women... It doesn't.

Legalising prostitution on its own may not make it that much safer for women prostitutes. Legalising prostitution with tight regulation and controls should make it significintly safer for prostitutes (and their clients). As for the measures of recent years in Amsterdam there is still a lot of controversy over the true underlying motivations behind them and whether they will ultimately prove to be beneficial or counter productive.

Jalla

Mickjg wrote: »

One of the men arrested, Gary Stack from Ennis, is the former principal of Ennis National School. Very disgusting to find he has been involved in this.

Small minded fool

Jalla

MyKeyG wrote: »

My Mother prostituted herself to my dad for a diamond ring:D

Feck it things are so bad I'm thinking about going on the game myself. Either that or become a guard. Mmmmm!!!

Nice:)

Jopari87

Outside of being a PR exercise for the gardai, I think arresting the 21 men was a bit pointless.

It won't make one jot of difference to prostitution. If they were interested in preventing any trafficking or protecting the welfare of the women, go after the gangs or pimps instead and solve the problem at its source.

Also, as many people have mentioned already there are many more pressing issues in Ireland, which **** all is done about.

MyKeyG

In a nutshell:
noun

The shell enclosing the meat of a nut.

Idiom:
Adverb

1. Summed up briefly; "gave the facts in a nutshell"; "just tell me the story in a nutshell"; "explained the situation in a nutshell"

2.

Jopari87 wrote: »

Outside of being a PR exercise for the gardai, I think arresting the 21 men was a bit pointless.

It won't make one jot of difference to prostitution. If they were interested in preventing any trafficking or protecting the welfare of the women, go after the gangs or pimps instead and solve the problem at its source.

Also, as many people have mentioned already there are many more pressing issues in Ireland, which **** all is done about.

Dublin_Gunner

And there I was thinking a Garda escort was for your own safety...

Blitzkrieger

Possibly pointless coming to a debate this late, especially on AH, but my 2 cents :

Generally when you're talking about crime, there's a clear victim and a clear criminal. Is it not a bit harsh to make those 21 men criminals for soliciting an act that is not illegal, when soliciting that act is not itself illegal - just illegal in a public place? Not that I would want to make soliciting in public legal, but prosecuting those men, and publishing their names in the national press, seems harsh, when their crime is effectively treating women posing as prostitutes, in areas frequented by prostitutes, as if they were prostitutes?

Would you be offended if I assumed you were a farmer, while you were standing in a field, dressed as a farmer and pretending to be a farmer? Or would that be some form of crime of discrimination?

Ridiculous to bring such a minor crime to court, using so much Garda and court resources. I think it's an injustice to those men.

As to who the victim is, I do believe the women are the victims in prostitution. I don't believe that prostitution is wrong, as long as both parties freely agree. The problem is with the "freely agree" part. Some have mentioned that not all prostitutes are forced into it, but I still have a problem with the idea that they freely choose to do so. Obviously the financial reward must appeal to some, but I still find it appalling that they would feel they have to do that.

But at the end of the day, it's not going to go away, so what do you do to try and protect the women involved?

Am I really that naive in thinking a legal centralised red light district like Amsterdam would help? That if there was a place for these men to go where they could pick a woman who has "chosen" to be there, that it would cut business for the pimps and gangs involved in underground trafficking? I know that underground trafficking would still go on, but couldn't we then focus more police resources on that, rather than bringing some lonely old sod up in front of a judge?

Some posters have said that studies have shown that trafficking has increased in countries where prostitution has been legalised, which surprises me - you'd think the demand would have been lessened. I also wonder at the accuracy of the studies. For instance :

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

After legalising prostitution in 2002 Germany saw a 70% increase in human trafficing by 2010.

Was there actually a 70% rise or were reports/prosecutions up 70%? And like someone else said, would it have been up 75% or 80% if prostituion had not been legalised?

MOSSAD

Seachmall wrote: »

Not all women are delicate flowers who's innocence need to be protected. Some recognize sex for what it is, a meaningless act and one an entrepreneuring woman can turn profitable.

In fact most women nowadays hold that opinion, a quick scan of Coppers will prove this.

There's a Brazilian whore based in Clare, who works for herself, and uses a couple of her fellow compatriots to drive her to appointments, wait outside and take her onto the next one. For one night she pays the guy €50 and throws in a blowjob. According to the guys she charges between €150 and €200 to the Irish men, and is much admired in the Brazilian community. She does discounts for groups of Brazilian men at €10 a f**k. Perhaps she could advise Noonan on ho to balance the books.

MyKeyG

MOSSAD wrote: »

There's a Brazilian whore based in Clare, who works for herself, and uses a couple of her fellow compatriots to drive her to appointments, wait outside and take her onto the next one. For one night she pays the guy €50 and throws in a blowjob. According to the guys she charges between €150 and €200 to the Irish men, and is much admired in the Brazilian community. She does discounts for groups of Brazilian men at €10 a f**k. Perhaps she could advise Noonan on ho to balance the books.

What are you her PR? One of the men caught is from Ennis. Where was this information when he needed it?:D

But in all seriousness the fact that she's willing to throw in a BJ in lieu of pay to her drivers just goes to show what view some women have of sexual acts, a means to an end.

Socialist_Pig

MOSSAD wrote: »

There's a Brazilian whore based in Clare, who works for herself, and uses a couple of her fellow compatriots to drive her to appointments, wait outside and take her onto the next one. For one night she pays the guy €50 and throws in a blowjob. According to the guys she charges between €150 and €200 to the Irish men, and is much admired in the Brazilian community. She does discounts for groups of Brazilian men at €10 a f**k. Perhaps she could advise Noonan on ho to balance the books.

cool story bro

MOSSAD

Mickjg wrote: »

One of the men arrested, Gary Stack from Ennis, is the former principal of Ennis National School. Very disgusting to find he has been involved in this.

You think?
What about the priests who screwed kids left right and centre when preparing them for communion and confirmation?
Gary taught me in National school and was probably the best, fairest and most interested teacher. He was always his own man, and here's an example.
The headmaster in Ennis Boys National in the 70s was a guy called Brian Kelly. He was a violent sadistic guy and was forever punching and beating students for whatever reason. He was a mathematician. He insisted on taking a 20 minute mental arithmetic class in 5th, 6th and 7th classes twice a week. You would fell physically sick the days you knew he was coming in;screaming and shouting fractions, long division, percentages and expecting immediate answers. If you weren't fast enough to answer you got a belt across the face-twice-and god help you if you you couldn't actually work out the answer. He often did this as gaelige-being a Roscommon man his Irish was difficult to understand from Munster Irish.
Gary Stack was the ONLY teacher to refuse to allow Kelly teach in his class. Gary also never sent a student to Kelly for corporal punishment because of the danger Kelly posed to kids.
Gary Stack also never bowed and scraped to the clergy- he had a healthy disregard for them which probably did him no favours. Gary is from Ennis and he knew where all the pupils came from;their backgrounds, circumstances etc. and I especially remember how compassionately he treated those kids who came from homes which offered them little support.
Has anything changed since this pointless exercise in policing? Driving from Colbert station Limerick during the week, the whores were still plying their goods and the guys still crawling.
The bright spark in the Gardai who sanctioned this fiasco should be sent out on foot patrol in Southill, but I'd wager he's not brave enough.

AhSureTisGrand

Socialist_Pig wrote: »

cool story bro

It actually was a cool story

The_Thing

One of the most difficult things for sex workers to do is to have their voices heard above the clamour from religious and feminist groups who think that they know whats best at all times for the people in the sex industry.

To give an example of this consider that a few months ago at the tax-payers expense Ruhama and a delegation from the department of Justice visited Sweden to see how things had worked out there since that country had criminalised the purchase of sex about ten years ago.

As far as I am aware no consultation of any kind took place with women working in prostitution during the visit to see how the law had impacted on them. What sort of a "fact-finding" mission was it that would ignore those at the very heart of this (or any other issue)?

If the IFA and a delegation from the department of Agriculture had visited Sweden I'm pretty certain they would have made it their business to meet with some of that country's farmers.

Kim_Il_Jong

MOSSAD wrote: »

There's a Brazilian whore based in Clare,

How could she possibly do that? Its disgusting, thats what it is....makes me sick to think that someone would voluntarily move from Brazil to Clare.

MyKeyG

Kim_Il_Jong wrote: »

How could she possibly do that? Its disgusting, thats what it is....makes me sick to think that someone would voluntarily move from Brazil to Clare.

Hey feck off there's nothing wrong with Clare. Except for all the Brazilians and whores:D

Socialist_Pig

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

It actually was a cool story

loved the happy ending:D

NewHillel

=ottostreet;75888252 This man wanted sex, and he was clearly not going to get it for free somewhere, because he solicited what he thought a prostitute. By doing so, he has also shown that he is more than likely not a rapist, as he is seeking to buy, rather than take, the service that he wanted.

I don't agree with you. Solicitating a prostitute means that, in many cases, the punter is willing to take the chance that they are about to commit an act of rape. Unless the punter is 100% certain that the 'whore' is providing the service willingly and completely of her own free will, that is the position - no matter how one wants to dress it up. We need more Garda activity in this area.

MyKeyG

NewHillel wrote: »

I don't agree with you. Solicitating a prostitute means that, in many cases, the punter is willing to take the chance that they are about to commit an act of rape. Unless the punter is 100% certain that the 'whore' is providing the service willingly and completely of her own free will, that is the position - no matter how one wants to dress it up. We need more Garda activity in this area.

All I can say is :rolleyes:

The_Thing

Except for certain parts of Nevada prostitution is illegal in the United States, yet criminalising it has not stopped it. God only knows how many millions of man-hours that country has wasted in pursuing this policy when the police there would clearly have better things to be doing.

If it is Criminalised here the same thing will happen.

From the Independent:

Last month, in one busy Dublin station, detectives involved in murder and other major investigations were diverted along with 10 uniformed gardai to raid an apartment where three young Eastern European women were working as prostitutes. A file is being prepared for the Director of Public Prosecutions relating to brothel keeping. The maximum penalty the young women are likely to face is a suspended sentence.

The fact that these women are facing suspended sentences suggests that the Gardai believe they had not been trafficked and were in fact merely working toghether to minimise their costs, but under Irish law that constitutes a brothel.

Personally I'd much rather see Seanie Fitz and David Drumm being hauled into court.

NewHillel

MOSSAD wrote: »

You think?
What about the priests who screwed kids left right and centre when preparing them for communion and confirmation?

I'm not sure what comparison you're making. Whether it is raping helpless schoolchildren, or soliciting prostitutes who may not be there of their own free will, both activities are equally heinous. Both parties should be prosecuted, and both should be jailed.

MyKeyG

NewHillel wrote: »

I'm not sure what comparison you're making. Whether it is raping helpless schoolchildren, or soliciting prostitutes who may not be there of their own free will, both activities are equally heinous. Both parties should be prosecuted, and both should be jailed.

'May not' being the operative term. In child abuse cases it's pretty clear that the act was not with mutual agreement.

What would you define as free will? A documentary on TV3 last year was billed as a so called exposé on sex trafficking in Ireland. The two Eastern European girls they interviewed knew what employment was awaiting them upon arriving in Ireland but decided to come anyway just to get away from where they lived. This to me is an exercise in free will. I wonder how many women are actually 'forced' into it.

Claregirl

Biggest problem with this country.

Named, shamed and picture on front page of paper for paying for sex.

Abuse, torture, rape and anonymity is assured unless the victim wants to have their personal torment advertised.

Far worse crimes committed in this country that no one ever even hears about.

Sin City

Claregirl wrote: »

Biggest problem with this country.

Named, shamed and picture on front page of paper for paying for sex.

Abuse, torture, rape and anonymity is assured unless the victim wants to have their personal torment advertised.

Far worse crimes committed in this country that no one ever even hears about.

At the end if the day , as long as women are doing this of their own free will I dont see what the problem is. I wouldnt see one myself but Im sure plenty would

You see some people just see it as , oh the dirty old man, he had to go see a prostitute. Nobody thinks of it as maybe, that disabled guy has needs too,

People are too quick to judge

MOSSAD

NewHillel wrote: »

I'm not sure what comparison you're making. Whether it is raping helpless schoolchildren, or soliciting prostitutes who may not be there of their own free will, both activities are equally heinous. Both parties should be prosecuted, and both should be jailed.

I was responding to the reaction of another poster with respect to the school principal. As for being forced into sex against one's will, I am reminded of a case in the UK.
A woman sought to divorce her husband, one of the grounds being that she was forced to perform oral sex. The judge refused the divorce on this ground, asking the plaintiff "Madam, have you no teeth?"

DEFTLEFTHAND

I'd worry about some of the older guys been named and shamed. They're from a different cultural era in regards to sex and been humiliated on a national basis in such a way as this could lead to one of them doing something stupid.

gigino

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'd worry about some of the older guys been named and shamed. They're from a different cultural era in regards to sex and been humiliated on a national basis in such a way as this could lead to one of them doing something stupid.

I am sure they are sorry they did not live in - or go to - most foreign countries where its legal. eg Australia, Nevada, Amsterdam, New Zealand , Germany etc all have legalised brothels as far as I know.

There were / are a lot worse things done in this country than a lonely sad person paying ( out of his own money ) a consenting adult for sex. If a man cannot get it elsewhere would it be better he bottled it up ? ( not literally lol ).

Sin City

Its all Ruhama and their other ilks who (most are nuns) are trying to tell people what is sexually moral and what is not. They then put pressure on govenments to out their ideals into law. What next, the banning of the condom because it it stops life? Just because the topic is socially awkward for a lot of Irish people does not mean its wrong

Sin City

One other point, If the Micheal Noonan could tax it , would it still be illigal?
Maybe he should look into it, There are a lot of prositiues and escorts operating tax free earning a fair amount

The_Thing

MyKeyG wrote: »

'.....I wonder how many women are actually 'forced' into it.

'forced' ? - No where near as many as Ruhama would have us believe to suit their own agenda.

People should have a read of the material found at http://www.lauraagustin.com to get a much truer insight to the issues surrounding the sex industry.

You can read reviews of Agustin's book Sex at the Margins: Migration, Labour Markets and the Rescue Industry here.

This groundbreaking book explodes several myths: that selling sex is completely different from any other kind of work, that migrants who sell sex are passive victims and that the multitude of people out to save them are without self-interest. Laura Agustin makes a passionate case against these stereotypes, arguing that the label 'trafficked' does not accurately describe migrants' lives and that the 'rescue industry' serves to disempower them. Based on extensive research amongst both migrants who sell sex and social helpers, "Sex at the Margins" provides a radically different analysis. Frequently, says Agustin, migrants make rational choices to travel and work in the sex industry, and although they are treated like a marginalised group they form part of the dynamic global economy. Both powerful and controversial, this book is essential reading for all those who want to understand the increasingly important relationship between sex markets, migration and the desire for social justice.

In the national media the debate has been very much one-sided so far - I've lost count of the number of times I've heard Ruhama giving interviews on the radio. During one interview Geraldine Rowley said that they (Ruhama) considered ALL women involved in prostitution here in Ireland to have been trafficked. ALL, even the Irish women???

And as far as I know they won't give out condoms to the street girls when their van visits the red-light areas.

Ormus

NewHillel wrote: »

I don't agree with you. Solicitating a prostitute means that, in many cases, the punter is willing to take the chance that they are about to commit an act of rape. Unless the punter is 100% certain that the 'whore' is providing the service willingly and completely of her own free will, that is the position - no matter how one wants to dress it up. We need more Garda activity in this area.

100% certainty is rarely available in life. One can never be certain that an arranged marriage is not actually an organised permanent rape. One can never be certain that a woman who sleeps with a rich man isn't secretly playing the role of a prostitute. Or likewise, a man who sleeps with a rich woman. Where do you draw the line?

You are saying that, if a punter makes sure the woman isn't being forced by her pimp to have sex with the punter, then she is acting "completely of her own free will". What if she needs the money to feed herself or her family? Is it still free will or is it necessity?

Legally, rape occurs where a woman does not consent to sex and the man knows, or ought to know, that she does not consent.

Personally, I agree with you that there are situations where men have had sex with prostitutes who were acting under fear of their lives, and the men were careless of this.

However, I think it's awfully harsh to say that any man who has had sex with a prostitute who hasn't first interviewed their pimp to make sure there is no duress, is a rapist.

SIMPLYTHE

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I wish people would stop using the phrase "human traffiking" when they mean "forced prostitution" they are not necessairly the same thing.



Do you have a credible (i.e. not Ruhama) source for this ?


Legalising prostitution on its own may not make it that much safer for women prostitutes. Legalising prostitution with tight regulation and controls should make it significintly safer for prostitutes (and their clients). As for the measures of recent years in Amsterdam there is still a lot of controversy over the true underlying motivations behind them and whether they will ultimately prove to be beneficial or counter productive.

1) Melisa Farley PhD Post Traumatic Stress Disorder amongst Prostitutes
2) Where are you getting the notion that legalisation will make it safer for prostitutes? You're obviously just presuming this. If Germany, Australia and Holland are not able to do this effectively, why in God's name would you think that Ireland would be able to? Do you really want to further encourage criminal gangs into the country? Because that's what's happened in other countries that have legalised prostitution -

Seachmall

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

1) Melisa Farley PhD Post Traumatic Stress Disorder amongst Prostitutes

What is this? Is it just a serious of words? Would, perhaps, expanding on this contribute something to the discussion?

2) Where are you getting the notion that legalisation will make it safer for prostitutes? You're obviously just presuming this. If Germany, Australia and Holland are not able to do this effectively, why in God's name would you think that Ireland would be able to? Do you really want to further encourage criminal gangs into the country? Because that's what's happened in other countries that have legalised prostitution -

For the 100th time in this discussion

Prostitution is legal in Ireland.

SIMPLYTHE

Seachmall wrote: »

What is this? Is it just a serious of words? Would, perhaps, expanding on this contribute something to the discussion?

For the 100th time in this discussion

Prostitution is legal in Ireland.

I have contributed my opinion on the topic, as informed by a huge interest in and a large amount of research in same.

If you choose to ignore the facts regarding the practicalities of fully legalised prostitution, that is your prerogative. I directed you to a source that, if googled, is clearly a book. If you took the time to even google Melissa Farley PhD you would've found much information on this topic.
Your lack of ability/desire to research this topic even at this extremely basic level underpins your lack of motivation to fully understand the nuances of this topic and indeed your lack of motivation to scratch beneath your own opinion.

Seachmall

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

I have contributed my opinion on the topic, as informed by a huge interest in and a large amount of research in same.

If you choose to ignore the facts regarding the practicalities of fully legalised prostitution, that is your prerogative. I directed you to a source that, if googled, is clearly a book. If you took the time to even google Melissa Farley PhD you would've found much information on this topic.
Your lack of ability/desire to research this topic even at this extremely basic level underpins your lack of motivation to fully understand the nuances of this topic and indeed your lack of motivation to scratch beneath your own opinion.

1. You have contributed nothing.
2. Prostitution is fully legal.
3. I have ignored your facts, because you haven't presented any.
4. It's your role to provide sources for your position, not mine.
5. I only lack motivation to locate your source for you.

SIMPLYTHE

Seachmall wrote: »

1. You have contributed nothing.
2. Prostitution is fully legal.
3. I have ignored your facts, because you haven't presented any.
4. It's your role to provide sources for your position, not mine.
5. I only lack motivation to locate your source for you.

Bless...

Seachmall

SIMPLYTHE wrote: »

Bless...

From yer one who posts the name of a book as a retort and makes irrelevant comparisons to other countries and calls it an argument.

:rolleyes:

The_Thing

One thing I cannot understand is how feminists will argue on one hand that a woman's body is hers alone to do with as she pleases, but on the other seek to prevent her from doing just that.

And the notion that prostitution is violence against women is just feminist rhetoric designed to grab headlines to further their own goals - what about hetero \ gay men and transsexuals who are working as prostitutes?

MyKeyG

Seachmall wrote: »

From yer one who posts the name of a book as a retort and makes irrelevant comparisons to other countries and calls it an argument.

:rolleyes:

Absolutely true. No opinion or argument just suggesting studies and books. I wouldn't waste my time arguing with her.

jimbot

The Garda should go undercover a bit deeper and catch the pimps in action, instead of naming and shaming a few random lads that probably in all fairness weren't the worst people in the world. Paedophiles have gotten away with worse. (what if you asked the undercover garda from your car if she wanted a ride, down town. being nice not sexually)

Richard Hillman

Judge Eamon O’Brien told one accused man who had requested free legal aid because he was on social welfare: “I’m not granting free legal aid. If you can afford a lady of the night, you can afford a solicitor.”

Quality quote :pac:

Tis a tad hypocritical though if he doesnt say the same when the local skanger strolls in with his brand new Air Max that probably cost more than a blowy in the back seat with a "Lady of the night".

lividduck

kraggy wrote: »

...that court time and garda time are taken up by this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1207/1224308683120.html

Long story short.

21 men charged and plead guilty to soliciting females on various streets in Limerick.

The women they were soliciting were gardai posing as prostitutes.

First of all, is that not entrapment? And secondly, if 2 people are consenting adults and are happy to enter in to a financial agreement for basic pleasure, do they really deserve a record and their names in the paper?

(Obviously it's just the mens' names in the paper in this instance, but you know what I mean).

I'm all for the protection of women and obviously trafficking needs to be prevented as much as possible. That's why this trade should be taken off the streets and regulated.

Nope, its not entrapment, these guys walked up and asked for sex, they iniated the conversation.
Secondly the garda undertook the action after numerous complaints from women who had been approached by men offering money for sex, the women just happened to live in the area and were left fearful.