HEC: Scarlets vs Munster, Sat 10 Dec 3:40pm Parc y Scarlets; Live Sky Sports 1

CIARAN_BOYLE

the_blackstuff wrote: »

Ah man! That would be a serious loss to munster if he has broken his jaw. I was just thinking watching him yesterday would he work as a 7. He's very mobile and not as bulky as most 6's but he won back a lot of ball for munster yesterday in contact. I think he's very good on the ground as well. He's young enough to try him there IMO

Did you hear the stat mentioned by the commentator regarding games wom by munster in the HC by o gara gettign the last kick? Was it 9 or 10 games he has won for us like that?

9 out of 100 HEC games that he played in won by O'Gara making a kick in the final play

the_blackstuff

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

9 out of 100 HEC games that he played in won by O'Gara making a kick in the final play

Thanks! Isn't that some record tho. Says a lot about the 9 men in from of him over his career as well. Now sure of the stats but I'd imagine forwards win most penalties and they generally are the guys making the yards to get him in position to drop his goals.

phog

[

Higher wrote: »

It is silly and very simplistic. If he'd gotten the kick then Munster would have to kick back. Maybe Priestland would have caught that ball, dodged two defenders and Scarlets would recycle and score. Or maybe it would be kicked out on the full. Or maybe there would be a knock on and scarlets scrum which leads to a try. or maybe a scarlets player would knock on, and then the ball pops out of the munster scrum and scarlet score, or coughlan gets turned over from the scrum or munster retake possession, run the pitch and score....etc, etc, etc.

Its impossible to try decipher what would have happened.

I get your point but yet you have no problem in trying to decipher what might have happended had Priestland got his first kick at posts :eek:

It's a bit silly to look at it like that. Had Priestland gotten that kick he might have had more confidence, gotten his other kicks and opted to kick at posts more which could have led to more points.

RuggieBear

Gogman banned. Rereg

Cpt_Blackbeard

I'm obviously not living up to my reputation...

phog

I rewatched the game again last night and at half time you can see POM walking off the field holding his face and seemed to be feeling inside his mouth. When he didn't return I thought it was a blood sub, but then Sky said it was a tactical sub. Now we hear it's a broken jaw poor O'Mahoney, he was just getting into his stride for Munster and then gets himself injured.

How long could he be out for with a broken jaw?

bamboozle

Munster by 7 or less.

my 2 cents worth

Munster well worth the win.

Scrum & Line out were excellent.
Leamy was excellent when he came on, seemed to be everywhere.
Varley gives away far too many penalties in the red zone, he needs to sort his discipline out as apart from that he's playing very well.
POC and Ryan were excellent.
Zebo didnt look out of place at HC level

kevinh2011

Scarlets by 7 or less.

Anybody know of any links with highlights of the match?

CIARAN_BOYLE

kevinh2011 wrote: »

Anybody know of any links with highlights of the match?

http://www.tg4.ie/ie/tg4-player/tg4-player.html

profitius

bamboozle wrote: »

my 2 cents worth

Munster well worth the win.

Scrum & Line out were excellent.
Leamy was excellent when he came on, seemed to be everywhere.
Varley gives away far too many penalties in the red zone, he needs to sort his discipline out as apart from that he's playing very well.
POC and Ryan were excellent.
Zebo didnt look out of place at HC level

I agree except for the Zebo bit. He needs to learn how to tackle and stop kicking the ball away all the time. His pace is a real asset but he looks like he needs to adapt to a higher level of rugby where players are faster and he has less space.

kevinh2011

Scarlets by 7 or less.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

http://www.tg4.ie/ie/tg4-player/tg4-player.html

Good man, thanks

Benny Cake

Munster by more than 7.

profitius wrote: »

I agree except for the Zebo bit. He needs to learn how to tackle and stop kicking the ball away all the time. His pace is a real asset but he looks like he needs to adapt to a higher level of rugby where players are faster and he has less space.

Thought Zebo did ok, far from the finished article but he will only get better..

Completely unrelated to his performance, I cant stand watching him play with his socks down, wrecks my head!!!

vinny chase

I can't quite understand the reaction to the Munster performance in the media today. The Times even stated O'Connell was holding a players only meeting today because they're unhappy with how they're performing.

That's a Llanelli side that is massively improved from where they've been in the past; they have a good, solid pack and a seriously dangerous backline. They have a ten who could be in contention for the Lions No. 10 shirt in a couple of years time (if he sorts out his place kicking) and they were on their home patch.

Munster are missing stacks of players to injury, and yet were once again able to grind out the win.

Of course, they aren't the force they were a few years ago, but honestly, I don't believe their squad is the equivalent of Toulouse, Leinster & Clermont. What they have though is two of the most incredible leaders ever to pull on a rugby shirt in O'Connell & O'Gara, and a remarkable resolve to literally never roll over and act like they're beaten.

The scrum is as good (or better) than it's ever been. Paul O'Connell is playing some of the best rugby of his career; he was literally incredible the other day. His workrate and willingness to keep getting off the ground and make tackles and show for the ball was just phenomenal. Leamy came off the bench the last day and worked like a trojan, and guys like Varley and Ronan (neither of whom I rate especially highly generally) were absolutely excellent when it came down to it.

I doubt there is a team in the competition who will want to face them in the QF's.

Podge_irl

vinny chase wrote: »

they have a good, solid pack

They really don't.

wixfjord

vinny chase wrote: »

I can't quite understand the reaction to the Munster performance in the media today. The Times even stated O'Connell was holding a players only meeting today because they're unhappy with how they're performing.

That's a Llanelli side that is massively improved from where they've been in the past; they have a good, solid pack and a seriously dangerous backline. They have a ten who could be in contention for the Lions No. 10 shirt in a couple of years time (if he sorts out his place kicking) and they were on their home patch.

Munster are missing stacks of players to injury, and yet were once again able to grind out the win.

Of course, they aren't the force they were a few years ago, but honestly, I don't believe their squad is the equivalent of Toulouse, Leinster & Clermont. What they have though is two of the most incredible leaders ever to pull on a rugby shirt in O'Connell & O'Gara, and a remarkable resolve to literally never roll over and act like they're beaten.

The scrum is as good (or better) than it's ever been. Paul O'Connell is playing some of the best rugby of his career; he was literally incredible the other day. His workrate and willingness to keep getting off the ground and make tackles and show for the ball was just phenomenal. Leamy came off the bench the last day and worked like a trojan, and guys like Varley and Ronan (neither of whom I rate especially highly generally) were absolutely excellent when it came down to it.

I doubt there is a team in the competition who will want to face them in the QF's.

Ah here, were we watching the same game?!
I saw a vastly overrated 10 choke under the pressure, a young and inexperienced back three, and a weak pack who were unable to get go forward ball for their backs.
That Scarlets team are one of the poorest supposedly good teams in the comp, and make no mistake about it. They fluked a try and Munster never looked like losing it from the 60th min on.

Fireball07

Munster by 7 or less.

vinny chase wrote: »

I can't quite understand the reaction to the Munster performance in the media today. The Times even stated O'Connell was holding a players only meeting today because they're unhappy with how they're performing.

That's a Llanelli side that is massively improved from where they've been in the past; they have a good, solid pack and a seriously dangerous backline. They have a ten who could be in contention for the Lions No. 10 shirt in a couple of years time (if he sorts out his place kicking) and they were on their home patch.

Munster are missing stacks of players to injury, and yet were once again able to grind out the win.

Of course, they aren't the force they were a few years ago, but honestly, I don't believe their squad is the equivalent of Toulouse, Leinster & Clermont. What they have though is two of the most incredible leaders ever to pull on a rugby shirt in O'Connell & O'Gara, and a remarkable resolve to literally never roll over and act like they're beaten.

The scrum is as good (or better) than it's ever been. Paul O'Connell is playing some of the best rugby of his career; he was literally incredible the other day. His workrate and willingness to keep getting off the ground and make tackles and show for the ball was just phenomenal. Leamy came off the bench the last day and worked like a trojan, and guys like Varley and Ronan (neither of whom I rate especially highly generally) were absolutely excellent when it came down to it.

I doubt there is a team in the competition who will want to face them in the QF's.

I have to agree...but if the players want to push on to higher levels of performance, I'm not going to argue with them.

All things considered it was an excellent performance imo. Set-piece was good, defence was superb and I think we always looked like winning it after we went in front. Llanelli are a good side...okay, they didn't perform on the day but some of that has to be down to how Munster played. They did what had to be won and winning away against the side who had destroyed Northampton is a great result.

vinny chase

wixfjord wrote: »

Ah here, were we watching the same game?!
I saw a vastly overrated 10 choke under the pressure, a young and inexperienced back three, and a weak pack who were unable to get go forward ball for their backs.
That Scarlets team are one of the poorest supposedly good teams in the comp, and make no mistake about it. They fluked a try and Munster never looked like losing it from the 60th min on.

Priestland was poor kicking from the tee, but in every other part of his game he was quality. Great in defense, quality distribution skills, a real threat with ball in hand (complemented by his offloading ability) and illustrated how he was still making line breaks when he went to fifteen.

Scarlets are a good side; with a lot of quality and dangerous players. Northampton may be out of sorts, but the hiding Scarlets gave them in Franklin's Gardens is still not the sort of thing you get from a poor side.

BoardsMember

wixfjord wrote: »

Ah here, were we watching the same game?!
I saw a vastly overrated 10 choke under the pressure, a young and inexperienced back three, and a weak pack who were unable to get go forward ball for their backs.
That Scarlets team are one of the poorest supposedly good teams in the comp, and make no mistake about it. They fluked a try and Munster never looked like losing it from the 60th min on.

They had fluked tries before Saturday, in the game against Northampton everything that could have gone their way did. Their luck has run out. Munster will destroy them in the home match, and will coast to winning the group without a loss. Toulouse & Leinster look the only really strong teams, with Cardiff, Clermon and Munster being in the second tier as regards favourites to go all the way. In my humble opinion

profitius

Munster have big problems in regards to their backline. They look woeful there.

The Munster pack is much improved this season. Thats down to Axel Foley. You could argue that if Fisher was still in charge they would have lost 2 of those matches or even 3. They won the three games by 8 pts in total and thats because of ROG and the forwards.

profitius

BoardsMember wrote: »

They had fluked tries before Saturday, in the game against Northampton everything that could have gone their way did. Their luck has run out. Munster will destroy them in the home match, and will coast to winning the group without a loss. Toulouse & Leinster look the only really strong teams, with Cardiff, Clermon and Munster being in the second tier as regards favourites to go all the way. In my humble opinion

You'd have toput Clermont in the top tier with Toulouse and Leinster I think. In terms of ability at least.

wixfjord

vinny chase wrote: »

Priestland was poor kicking from the tee, but in every other part of his game he was quality. Great in defense, quality distribution skills, a real threat with ball in hand (complemented by his offloading ability) and illustrated how he was still making line breaks when he went to fifteen.

Scarlets are a good side; with a lot of quality and dangerous players. Northampton may be out of sorts, but the hiding Scarlets gave them in Franklin's Gardens is still not the sort of thing you get from a poor side.

Priestland is a big powerful athlete, but ROG schooled him in the art of 10.
They fluked tries against Saints, and the worst of the four packs in that group, never mind being anywhere near quality.

Castres will give them a serious run in France if they're on any sort of form.

BoardsMember

profitius wrote: »

You'd have toput Clermont in the top tier with Toulouse and Leinster I think. In terms of ability at least.

Yeah, maybe so, I just havent seen enough of them this year to be honest. Are they reliable away from home? I'd fancy Leinster & Toulouse to beat ost away from home as well as at home.

Fireball07

Munster by 7 or less.

BoardsMember wrote: »

They had fluked tries before Saturday, in the game against Northampton everything that could have gone their way did. Their luck has run out. Munster will destroy them in the home match, and will coast to winning the group without a loss. Toulouse & Leinster look the only really strong teams, with Cardiff, Clermon and Munster being in the second tier as regards favourites to go all the way. In my humble opinion

Ah now, let's not be overconfident. I don't think we'll destroy them...we haven't got the backs and attacking prowess to "destroy" any decent team. We should win but it could be tight again. Maybe a win by more than 7 if Botha is fit. Their counter-attacking play will still be a threat, all it takes is one missed tackle, a couple of passes to stick and the ball ending up in the right player's hands and they could score a try.

And I dunno about coasting to winning the group, Northampton will still be formidable, I don't expect them to just give up. We should win at this stage, but I don't think we'll get any bonus points.

I'd have Toulouse, Leinster and Clermont as the top tier as they have a great first XV and incredible depth. Munster would be in the next group, and will gave any team a game...and if we get a home QF you'd think we should get through. A semi-final against one of those 3 though?? Probably a step too far with the injuries in the squad.

profitius

BoardsMember wrote: »

Yeah, maybe so, I just havent seen enough of them this year to be honest. Are they reliable away from home? I'd fancy Leinster & Toulouse to beat ost away from home as well as at home.

They're not as good away from home and their mentality is fragile but they're unbeaten at home in about 36 matches. Thats good by any standard.

Fireball07

Munster by 7 or less.

wixfjord wrote: »

Priestland is a big powerful athlete, but ROG schooled him in the art of 10.
They fluked tries against Saints, and the worst of the four packs in that group, never mind being anywhere near quality.

Castres will give them a serious run in France if they're on any sort of form.

To be fair to Priestland, ROG has schooled lots of players in the art of 10. He's only young and he'll improve.

vinny chase

wixfjord wrote: »

Priestland is a big powerful athlete, but ROG schooled him in the art of 10.
They fluked tries against Saints, and the worst of the four packs in that group, never mind being anywhere near quality.

Castres will give them a serious run in France if they're on any sort of form.

Ah I think to suggest Priestland is simply a 'big, powerful athlete' is doing him a disservice. I played against the guy when I was about fifteen, and even back then I was struck by how talented a footballer he is, and his ability to ghost through gaps.

I think his distribution, his vision and his footwork are all good.

To come off second best to Ronan O'Gara in out-half play doesn't necessarily make you a bad out half by any measure.

thomond2006

Munster by more than 7.

It wouldn't surprise if they play Priestland at 15 next week, he ran some fantastic lines and made some great breaks towards the end.

thomond2006

Munster by more than 7.

I remember seeing this before kick off!

wixfjord

vinny chase wrote: »

Ah I think to suggest Priestland is simply a 'big, powerful athlete' is doing him a disservice. I played against the guy when I was about fifteen, and even back then I was struck by how talented a footballer he is, and his ability to ghost through gaps.

I think his distribution, his vision and his footwork are all good.

To come off second best to Ronan O'Gara in out-half play doesn't necessarily make you a bad out half by any measure.

Absolutely, but his missed kicks and general failiure to get his team into the right positions were a big part of the Scarlets loss. In my opinion, they're a shadow of a good team, with a few gamebreakers but nothing special. That was a shadow Munster team that never really looked like losing.

Amazotheamazing

Wrt to the O'Gara v. Priestland thing, O'Gara hasn't played this well since 2008, and even that was coming after a serious drop in form in the 2007 RWC. Whatever's happened to him recently, he's really found some sensational form.

wixfjord

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Wrt to the O'Gara v. Priestland thing, O'Gara hasn't played this well since 2008, and even that was coming after a serious drop in form in the 2007 RWC. Whatever's happened to him recently, he's really found some sensational form.

Do you really think he played that well at the weekend?

Amazotheamazing

wixfjord wrote: »

Do you really think he played that well at the weekend?

Yes. Took a huge amount of physical punishment too.

wixfjord

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Yes. Took a huge amount of physical punishment too.

Hmm I personally think you're overselling it and he was quite mixed. Kicked his goals and indeed took a huge amount of physical punishment, but if you look at Sexton's performance for example, he did that and attacked well too, along with defending like a demon.

ROG's kicking game has been great over the last few months, his attacking game is the same as always though.

Amazotheamazing

wixfjord wrote: »

Hmm I personally think you're overselling it and he was quite mixed. Kicked his goals and indeed took a huge amount of physical punishment, but if you look at Sexton's performance for example, he did that and attacked well too, along with defending like a demon.

ROG's kicking game has been great over the last few months, his attacking game is the same as always though.

Why bother to bring Sexton into it?

You know there was probably 30 or more outhalves playing HEC level this weekend, any chance you'd find a way to use a different player to compare O'Gara to? Are you trying to goad munster fans into some sort Sexton v. O'Gara debate or something?

O'Gara's having his best HEC tournament in several years, take from that whatever you want.

Podge_irl

ROG is playing pretty damn well at the moment. Munster have reverted to a 10 man game, but it's only successful because their pack is well drilled and ROG is doing everything right to feed into that gameplan. I can't help but feel it won't be enough to take them into the serious end of the competition, but any other fly half there and Munster would be struggling more.

Amazotheamazing

Podge_irl wrote: »

ROG is playing pretty damn well at the moment. Munster have reverted to a 10 man game, but it's only successful because their pack is well drilled and ROG is doing everything right to feed into that gameplan. I can't help but feel it won't be enough to take them into the serious end of the competition, but any other fly half there and Munster would be struggling more.

I don't think anyone's under any illusions about Munster this year, we're scrapping our way through a tough pool. If we reach the knock-outs we can worry about them then, imo.

Podge_irl

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I don't think anyone's under any illusions about Munster this year, we're scrapping our way through a tough pool. If we reach the knock-outs we can worry about them then, imo.

Honestly, it wouldn't greatly surprise me if Munster did well this year. I've been expecting them to be "found out" for the last 3 HEC games and it hasn't happened.

Amazotheamazing

Podge_irl wrote: »

Honestly, it wouldn't greatly surprise me if Munster did well this year. I've been expecting them to be "found out" for the last 3 HEC games and it hasn't happened.

It's funny, it's easy to see us losing the remaining games in the group if things just go slightly wrong. Our winning margin of 8 is pretty tight, I won't be calling this group just yet.

phog

wixfjord wrote: »

Priestland is a big powerful athlete, but ROG schooled him in the art of 10.
They fluked tries against Saints, and the worst of the four packs in that group, never mind being anywhere near quality.

Castres will give them a serious run in France if they're on any sort of form.

When I made a similar point about Scarlets in the Castres/Munster match thread you argued the point now you seem to agree that Scarlets scored flukey tries against the Saints.

wixfjord

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Why bother to bring Sexton into it?

You know there was probably 30 or more outhalves playing HEC level this weekend, any chance you'd find a way to use a different player to compare O'Gara to? Are you trying to goad munster fans into some sort Sexton v. O'Gara debate or something?

O'Gara's having his best HEC tournament in several years, take from that whatever you want.

Why bother bringing Sexton into it?! Well obviously because he's O Gara's rival and he's the best example of an all round fly half in the comp.

See this is where the blindness comes in with ROG. He's not actually played that well in this HEC, bar the obvious, and didn't actually play that well on Sat, but come Feb that will be thrown up as a reason to start him!

wixfjord

phog wrote: »

When I made a similar point about Scarlets in the Castres/Munster match thread you argued the point now you seem to agree that Scarlets scored flukey tries against the Saints.

Have you a link for me saying that Scarlets didn't score lucky tries against Northampton? Don't remember that.

Fireball07

Munster by 7 or less.

wixfjord wrote: »

Why bother bringing Sexton into it?! Well obviously because he's O Gara's rival and he's the best example of an all round fly half in the comp.

See this is where the blindness comes in with ROG. He's not actually played that well in this HEC, bar the obvious, and didn't actually play that well on Sat, but come Feb that will be thrown up as a reason to start him!

I think he played pretty well. He wasn't man of the match or anything but if he hadn't been playing, I don't think Munster would have won. He and POC visibly took control of the game after 20 minutes and dragged Munster into it. He kicked his goals, he was involved in the try, he made the right choices with the ball-in-hand for most part. It was a good performance, only marred by some defensive blips. But even when he was knocked back, he put his body in front of the man, slowed him down. And in the end, Llanelli didn't get another try.

.ak

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Why bother to bring Sexton into it?

You know there was probably 30 or more outhalves playing HEC level this weekend, any chance you'd find a way to use a different player to compare O'Gara to? Are you trying to goad munster fans into some sort Sexton v. O'Gara debate or something?

O'Gara's having his best HEC tournament in several years, take from that whatever you want.

Out of interest of not turning this into a ROG vs Sexto thread, I'd like to point out a couple of OHs that were genuinely better than ROG was... Donald was particularly good. His management of the pack was superb, definitely did his homework on Leinster and knew how to fire the ball and when to cutout the first attackers, Leinster were fixed on that and couldn't stop them making ground on most occasions, that was completely down to Donald. If he had a backline there more inventive I'm afraid Leinster would be looking at a defeat now.

Luke McAllister was also very good, he kept the his options close to his chest until the second half when Quinns began to totally bank on loose ball, then he subsequently started sending ball wide and fixing defenders. He's a lot to learn about game management but his all over game was better than ROGs imo.


Still, don't get me wrong, I think ROG had some great points from the game the other day - especially the try he pretty much single handedly setup cuz he knew it was on. But what I am saying is he was far from being the best OH on the weekend.

Cpt_Blackbeard

wixfjord wrote: »

Why bother bringing Sexton into it?! Well obviously because he's O Gara's rival and he's the best example of an all round fly half in the comp.

See this is where the blindness comes in with ROG. He's not actually played that well in this HEC, bar the obvious, and didn't actually play that well on Sat, but come Feb that will be thrown up as a reason to start him!

What does any of this have to do with the Irish team? ROG's general play has been very good and he has been the main reason behind Munster being best placed to come out of a very difficult group to reach the knockout stages. Sexton has presided over 3 average Leinster performances where they have been unable to reach last year's heights against 3 average teams. So, we have 2 Irish 10's. One has had the most impact of any player on the competition so far, the other is Sexton.

Its easy to put a spin on anything, provided you want it to suit a certain agenda but, anyone with the best interests of Irish rugby at heart will want Sexton to be the first choice Irish 10 by the end of the 6N. This has been done to death in the past but, even ROG knows that Sexton is the man to lead Ireland forward. He is best suited to concentrate mostly on the club game and to try and continue to be the best club player in the world.

wixfjord

Fireball07 wrote: »

I think he played pretty well. He wasn't man of the match or anything but if he hadn't been playing, I don't think Munster would have won. He and POC visibly took control of the game after 20 minutes and dragged Munster into it. He kicked his goals, he was involved in the try, he made the right choices with the ball-in-hand for most part. It was a good performance, only marred by some defensive blips. But even when he was knocked back, he put his body in front of the man, slowed him down. And in the end, Llanelli didn't get another try.

Absolutely, I don't disagree he led well, and completely outshone Priestland. However, he was nothing out of the ordinary and hasn't been in the previous two games, despite the two obvious incredible drops and has been mixed, just like he has been for Ireland recently.

wixfjord

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

What does any of this have to do with the Irish team? ROG's general play has been very good and he has been the main reason behind Munster being best placed to come out of a very difficult group to reach the knockout stages. Sexton has presided over 3 average Leinster performances where they have been unable to reach last year's heights against 3 average teams. So, we have 2 Irish 10's. One has had the most impact of any player on the competition so far, the other is Sexton.

Its easy to put a spin on anything, provided you want it to suit a certain agenda but, anyone with the best interests of Irish rugby at heart will want Sexton to be the first choice Irish 10 by the end of the 6N. This has been done to death in the past but, even ROG knows that Sexton is the man to lead Ireland forward. He is best suited to concentrate mostly on the club game and to try and continue to be the best club player in the world.

That's incorrect though, and you know it. But anyway, if it's nothing to do with the Irish team, why are you bringing up Leinster?!

Amazotheamazing

wixfjord wrote: »

Why bother bringing Sexton into it?! Well obviously because he's O Gara's rival and he's the best example of an all round fly half in the comp.

Fishing with dynamite.

Cpt_Blackbeard

wixfjord wrote: »

That's incorrect though, and you know it. But anyway, if it's nothing to do with the Irish team, why are you bringing up Leinster?!

I wouldn't really consider it wrong at all tbh. Besides a spell in the second half of the first two games, Leinster haven't performed that well. They are nowhere near the standards they set last year anyway.

ROG has quite clearly had the most impact on the competition of any other player this year or, can you point to any other player who has won 2 games so far in extra time?

Your logic for your second point is baffling. You brought up Sexton who is a Leinster player. I was merely responding to your fishing.

Quint2010

Scarlets by 7 or less.

O'Gara has done brilliantly to rescue Munster twice this season. But has he actually played well? No he hasnt. He has continued his form from the world cup.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Quint2010 wrote: »

O'Gara has done brilliantly to rescue Munster twice this season. But has he actually played well? No he hasnt. He has continued his form from the world cup. The way he emotionally blackmailed Kidney into playing him in the Wales game was unforgiveable. He shouldnt play for Ireland again in my opinion.

See, what point does this serve other than to get the thread closed? The inferiority complex among the Leinster fans here is in full force anyway.