The Devil

Mark Hamill

Peregrinus wrote: »

In Genesis, Eve is tempted by a serpent. Later - much later - Christian thinkers have identified the serpent with Satan, though the scriptural text itself makes no such identification. More to the point, neither does the Jewish tradition. In the Jewish tradition, the serpent is just a serpent.

I remember reading somewhere that its a serpent because at around the time this story was developed, the jews (or whatever they were called back then) were ruled over or enslaved by the Babylonians (I think it was), who were snake worshipers. So the story of Adam and Eve was created (or altered, if you prefer) to blame the Babylonian's God for getting humanity kicked out of Eden.

fitz0

JimiTime wrote: »

a) Hell is not the dominion of Satan, a common misconception.
b) Satan doesn't have the assignment of punishing the wicked. He will suffer the same fate as the unrepentant sinner. Another common misconception.
c) Firstly, there is no indication that Lucifer was 'the most powerful angel' and secondly, I don't think its written in stone that Lucifer is actually Satan.

Your confusion would be helped, if you sourced your info from theological sources rather than Hollywood etc;)

See I didn't know these things. If Lucifer isn't Satan then who is? Is there even a Satan? If he punishes the sinner's is he on God's payroll? Surely such torture and cruelty wouldn't be in keeping with one of God's angels.

If Lucifer isn't Satan, or is being constantly punished, then why is he called Father of Lies and such. He clearly has no power if he is trapped but if he is in fact (fiction) attributed all these names and such that implies power. If Lucifer is the devil then he clearly has as much power as God to pervert his divine plan in the ways that are attributed to him.

I didn't actually source anything. I'm working off the common view on this. That's probably influenced as much by my reading of Neil Gaiman's Sandman than by any theological basis. The point stands though as Satan is treated more as an antagonistic archetype than as a real being.

Peregrinus: My dissertation is only loosely comparable to this, it just set me thinking. It's about Frank Gehry and his role as a necessary antagonist in architecture.

kylith

JimiTime wrote: »

b) Satan doesn't have the assignment of punishing the wicked. He will suffer the same fate as the unrepentant sinner. Another common misconception.

Hang on. So if Satan suffers the same fate as humans in hell then 1) why does the bible paint him as a huge tempter of souls, surely he has othe things to worry about, and 2) does that mean that I have to torture myself when I get to hell?

robindch

pH wrote: »

"Andy Hamilton's Search for Satan"

Oooo, I want to lean over and kiss him on his little bald head!

Undergod

kylith wrote: »

Hang on. So if Satan suffers the same fate as humans in hell then 1) why does the bible paint him as a huge tempter of souls, surely he has othe things to worry about, and 2) does that mean that I have to torture myself when I get to hell?

1) That's a good point.
2) The torture is being separated from God forever. Possibly the flames also.

So is the story of the rebellion actually part of Christian theology at all?

kylith

Undergod wrote: »

1) That's a good point.
2) The torture is being separated from God forever. Possibly the flames also.

So is the story of the rebellion actually part of Christian theology at all?

To be honest, I'm a bit confused about the whole 'separation from God' punishment. I'm about as separated from any god as I can be right now and, frankly, it's great.

Undergod

kylith wrote: »

To be honest, I'm a bit confused about the whole 'separation from God' punishment. I'm about as separated from any god as I can be right now and, frankly, it's great.

Well, you would be though, if you're an atheist!
Perhaps once we die, and realize we're wrong, and we'll realize what we're missing out on, then we'll realize what a punishment it is.

Omentum

Perhaps the modern interpretation of the words isn't the true original meaning?

Sarky

It's had thousands of years to change. For all we know, all these religious tales arose from a man having sex with a camel.

Omentum

Sarky wrote: »

It's had thousands of years to change. For all we know, all these religious tales arose from a man having sex with a camel.

Doubtful

Delirium

Omentum wrote: »

Doubtful

True, considering the average height of men back then it was probably a goat.

Sarky

They had rocks to stand on even back then, I wouldn't dismiss it outright.

ShooterSF

@Strobe

Any chance you spent a stint on the writing staff for mortal kombat?!

If Satan was actually the serpent does that now mean he has no legs or arms and has to crawl around on his belly and eat dust all the time as was the punishment by god?
Hardly an intimidating figure...

Edit - Also if the snake is how he is today because it's a punishment A) that's a bit unfair if it wasn't actually a snake but rather satan in disguise and what the hell did the worm do to annoy god so much? He's got it just as bad and unlike the snake has even less defenses!

goose2005

marienbad wrote: »

And Dante virtually single handedly invented Purgatory !

''Midway through life's journey I found myself lost in a dark wood ''

What a poet, junk the bible and lets go with the Divine Comedy, no inconsistencies there and the earth was round !

Not really, Dante was borrowing from traditions that had existed for a long time, even the idea of ironic punishments and different levels of Hell were in earlier writers. But Dante did popularise a lot of ideas. And even early Christians had a notion of a place of purification for those not yet good enough for heaven.

Barr125

I know this and old thread, but I was just thinking about this in response to a post on the Christianity ''Atheist'' thread (I don't why I continue to torture myself):

If we, as atheists, have rejected God, as Catholics/Christians say, and are being cast to Hell, defied his will and are so immoral, then why would the Devil punish us and torture us eternally?

I feel this comic explains it best....

Peregrinus

Barr125 wrote: »

I know this and old thread, but I was just thinking about this in response to a post on the Christianity ''Atheist'' thread (I don't why I continue to torture myself):

If we, as atheists, have rejected God, as Catholics/Christians say, and are being cast to Hell, defied his will and are so immoral, then why would the Devil punish us and torture us eternally?

Short answer: That's how he gets his kicks.

Slightly longer answer: You do know that what you've set out is not actually Catholic teaching, don't you?

FanadMan

Sonics2k wrote: »

Christianity is one giant ret-con.

On-topic. The basic jist of Satan is this (to my understanding).
Lucifer (meaning the Shining one) was the top Angel in the beginning, however, when God created Humans he grew to hate them, and be jealous of the love they received from God. After all, he had served God without question for all time. Some stories also claim he was angry than Humans were able to feel a wider range of feelings and even sexuality, something the Angels could not.

Lucifer wanted equality, raised up an army of others who agreed with him and fought against God to be basically treated as an equal to God.

Obviously he lost, and was cast down to Hell where he was set with the eternal task of torturing the damned and Scientologists.

That's all learnable (real word???) from the film Dogma......well, apart from the scientologist bit

It's all a fairy tale to scare people into being nice......

Barr125

Peregrinus wrote: »

Short answer: That's how he gets his kicks.

Slightly longer answer: You do know that what you've set out is not actually Catholic teaching, don't you?

Oh, I know it's not a Catholic teaching, but that doesn't seem to stop a lot of Catholics/Christians saying that atheists are going there for whatever reasons.

General Relativity

How do you know God is the "good one" and Satan is the "bad one"?

Sarky

Easy. God claims he won, and he says Satan is the bad guy.

sbsquarepants

Sarky wrote: »

Easy. God claims he won, and he says Satan is the bad guy.

History is always written by the victors!

General Relativity wrote: »

How do you know God is the "good one" and Satan is the "bad one"?

Check out the vigilant citizens article on the mormon church in salt lake. They have a very interesting statue of jesus in front of a painting of earth viewed from outer space () and an explaination of it that implies the mormons secretly love satan!
http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/sinister-sites-temple-square-utah/
It's as barking mad as any other religious idolatry of course, but a very entertaining read nonetheless.
I can definitely see how those predisposed to seeing the devil and his devious ways of attacking mankind could buy into it. The symbols are definitely there - it's just the interpretation is a teeny tiny bit bat shít crazy!!

Temptamperu

fitz0 wrote: »

I'm writing a dissertation at the moment and the subject is comparable to the devil in the Judeo-Christian myths and it got me thinking about yet another of the inconsistencies of Christianity.

To be straight, Satan was the most powerful angel. He rebelled against God (I'm not sure of the nature of this rebellion) and was cast out. This is my understanding of it. It occurred to me, why was Satan given a promotion while simultaneously being "cast out"? By promotion I mean that he was given his own domain (Hell) and free reign to pervert God's rule.

So instead of being punished for his rebellion, he was pretty much rewarded and tolerated to continue his evil ways. Why would an all powerful being allow a rival to set up shop and share the spotlight with him when he has the power to just erase his mistake? Usually god and the devil are portrayed on a fairly equal footing, locked in an eternal battle. It just seems like unnecessary drama for drama's sake.

I realise that most here aren't bothered by this as there are so many more holes in the story but the ridiculousness of some like this just confuses me no end.

He was jealous of humanities free will and unwillingness to be subjugated by God and his Son, falsely claiming that angels are "self-begot, self-raised. thereby denying God's authority over them as their creator.

Also he is not really in the Bible there's a red dragon and the snake but the satan that we all know and love now is more a creation of fear of death that permeated in the dark ages and jumped upon by clergy to make money (ie. you could buy your way out of hell), Even the story of his fall from grace is just from Miltons Paradise lost I think.

Liamario

If i was the devil, I wouldn't punish the wicked. I'd reward them for being so.
That would really piss off god.

kylith

My favourite, non-biblical, Satan story is that Lucifer got all pissed off with humans having free will and said to God 'Pff, I bet I could tempt them all into sin, no bother'. So God said 'Right then, do it. But, because you doubt my wisdom you must be punished. Therefore whenever a human rejects me you will get one step further from returning to heaven. Whenever a human rejects you, you will get one step closer to heaven.' Since Lucifer is honour-bound to win his bet he must encourage people away from God even though he doesn't want to.

the culture of deference

housetypeb wrote: »

Something that always struck me as odd was the fact that god is meant to be this all powerful all knowing deity -and yet, one of his main angels was under the impression that he was beatable.

jill_valentine wrote: »

A lot of our ideas about Lucifer come from the Divine Comedy, rather than any religious text as such. The question of whether the Devil is powerful enough to actually defy God and run hell under his own steam, or whether he's operating under a kind of license from God, is an ongoing theological debate that's troubled scholars for a long, long time.

General Relativity wrote: »

How do you know God is the "good one" and Satan is the "bad one"?

What if this so called god is the devil as well.

He is after all his own father, who likes to impregnate virgins, maybe he is like the Monty python cast and plays several characters.

oldrnwisr

Just one important point, Lucifer is not Satan.

Lucifer, meaning light bringer was originally a term applied to the planet Venus which was also referred to as the Morning Star. It is in these terms that Lucifer is referred to in the Bible.

Lucifer is mentioned in several places in the bible but none of them connect to the character that would eventually become Satan in the New Testament.

Lucifer is associated with two different mortal characters in the Old Testament. In Isaiah 14, we see the phrase morning star as a term used for the king of Babylon:

Isaiah 14 wrote:

On the day the LORD gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers, which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression. All the lands are at rest and at peace; they break into singing. Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon gloat over you and say, “Now that you have been laid low, no one comes to cut us down.” The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations. They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you. How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?” All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb. But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot, you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. Let the offspring of the wicked never be mentioned again.

A similar story to the one above is presented in Ezekiel 28:11-19, however, this time the story refers to the king of Tyre rather than Babylon and the phrase morning star is omitted.

Another use of the term lucifer is in 2 Peter 1:19, however here the term also does not refer to Satan:

2 Peter 1 wrote:

We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Finally, in the book of Revelations, Jesus is referred to as the Morning Star in Revelations 22:16

Revelations 22 wrote:

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

The character of Lucifer owes more to Christian literature like Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost than it does to the bible. Getting to the bottom of the character of Satan as portrayed in the Bible is complicated but here are two very good explanatory videos for anyone interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61eeKakLBbU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-gbOnWj6Mw