Star Wars: The Old Republic General Discussion

jeawan

Anyone wrote: »

The more i think of EQ and its death penalties, the more I think that they made you a better player. I mean you learned from your mistakes. Since WoW, dieing has had no consequence to the player apart from you lost a small amount of time.

I had a friend throw his toys out of his pram one night in EQ2 and die about 15 time he regretted it after big time was quite funny at the time

Dustaz

Kirby wrote: »

Everyone in here is talking about threat metres and their inclusion/exclusion. Dustaz, If you contributed a little to the discussion instead of getting snarky with anyone who disagreed with you you would wouldn't embarrass yourself as much.

Everyone in here could be talking about little green men on the surface of mars, that doesnt change the fact that in any of my posts i was referring specifically and by name to dps meters.

I could get into a huge thing about min/maxing i guess and how its not fully efficient without some indication of threat but i guess thats for another day and another argument. DPS meters or at the very least a combat log is head and shoulders above the rest

TheDoc

Dermighty wrote: »

In my opinion and experience, dps and damage meters are a load of horse**** for 99% of players, just being a form of digital pissing contest.

Mouse over healing with only three people in your group (for flashpoints) is just not necessary.

Warcraft dumbed down so many aspects of the game so almost automaton style play that I hope they don't being that sort of toolbox to the game. Eve online never had modification and I'm glad SWTOR doesnt (yet) have them.

I'm not being bad, but that sort of comment typical comes assosiated with, a nevermind.

Damage meters are shockingly useful, the common misconception its for e-peen.

Especially in a new MMO where number crunching it being done etc etc etc.

You may notice, there is no combat log to track damage done ( or maybe there is, again buried in the options)

But how can I tell effectively if one spec I've done is better then the other for damage output?

How can I effectively tell if my tank spec can hold better aggro by putting out more threat.

How can I tell what class is doing the most DPS, so I can be aware ahead of time incase of pulled aggro etc.

Its very misconceived and incorrect to state damage meters are to whag your mickey around, just go to show how poorly people use them.

With recount and skada I can break down my Warlock to a T looking at dmg per spell, per second, spikes, burst everything, and all it does it put combat log output into a graphical representation.

Does this game ever have a combat log?

* Just confirmed it , there is no combat log, beyond.....comprahension*

Draupnir

I started playing MMO's with some MUDs so I was really surprised when WoW let me die with very little penalty, I remember many times losing some top quality gear to a death room by not reading the description and being completely infuriated but it gave a great sense of caution and realism to the game.

That sense of actually not wanting to die, of not being able to afford to lose a fight if I took on a mob, was very rewarding and meant that completing any type of zone that involved multiple fights became really satisfying.

It also added a huge amount of progression to the game, the only time since then that I've ever felt like that has been trying to stealth passed Horde NPC owned territories in WoW zones. Not sure if that's the best way to describe them as I wouldn't be very down with the lingo. Having twenty of those lads chasing me added a lot of realism and enjoyment to the game.

I'm not sure if TOR has that yet, but for me, I think any MMORPG suffers without either one of the above and without both it is missing a lot.

Draupnir

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm not being bad, but that sort of comment typical comes assosiated with, a nevermind.

Damage meters are shockingly useful, the common misconception its for e-peen.

Especially in a new MMO where number crunching it being done etc etc etc.

You may notice, there is no combat log to track damage done ( or maybe there is, again buried in the options)

But how can I tell effectively if one spec I've done is better then the other for damage output?

How can I effectively tell if my tank spec can hold better aggro by putting out more threat.

How can I tell what class is doing the most DPS, so I can be aware ahead of time incase of pulled aggro etc.

Its very misconceived and incorrect to state damage meters are to whag your mickey around, just go to show how poorly people use them.

With recount and skada I can break down my Warlock to a T looking at dmg per spell, per second, spikes, burst everything, and all it does it put combat log output into a graphical representation.

Does this game ever have a combat log?

* Just confirmed it , there is no combat log, beyond.....comprahension*

So in short, you are unhappy that things aren't being made easy for you?

TheDoc

nesf wrote: »

Um, Blizzard almost never do. They launch new content a few months after when the shine has worn off the new MMO and people are starting to ask themselves if they want to pay for two subs a month.

From what I remember anyway.

Nah not exactly.

Typically with every major MMO that has arrived in Europe/US, blizzard has had a content patch at the go.

This time however, it was very evident both were waiting for someone to break the silence. Blizzard announced 4.3 and about 3 days later I'd an email telling me about early access.

Probably not directly related, but Blizzard always launch content when a new MMO comes on the scene to peak peoples interest in WoW.

I also think that statement is a bit sweeping and incorrect. They typically release new content when the previous tier is very much on farm, there has been instances where its gone on too long, but I think they have identified content needs to come quicker.

TheDoc

Draupnir wrote: »

So in short, you are unhappy that things aren't being made easy for you?

Sigh, this forum is just turning into the old counter strike one for me....

The sheer lack of grasp on the point I'm asking is down to two things

1) I'm not making my point correctly
2) People are clueless when it comes to actually diagnosing their class and doing some simple math

I'm going with option 2

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now since I really dont want to repeat myself over and over and over and over. And I also don't want to be coaxed by trolls,

And for the record, people stating they played MMO's back way when doesn't mean

A) Your better at MMO's
Your a better person
C) you've a higher right to your opinion being heard

It typically just means you very similar to a Liverpool fan stuck with nostalgia : /

Ivan

Rift had a dps meter. </Devil's Advocate>

And I too share the opinion that a dps meter is very important for modern MMO's UI. I still haven't played SW:TOR, but my experiences with MMOs and raiding lead me to believe that dps meters and threat meters are very important for raiding endgame content. Otherwise you would need rainman-esque abilities to keep track of and calculate tank threat compared to your own threat in real-time. Not to mention the fact that you would have no idea if your tank was good or bad, which in itself causes problems.

A game not having them doesn't make it a bad game though, that's where I disagree - it simply makes it a new one, but it does need these features - eventually or players will leave. I know it sounds silly and/or petty, but it's emperical facts.

nesf

TheDoc wrote: »

Sigh, this forum is just turning into the old counter strike one for me....

The sheer lack of grasp on the point I'm asking is down to two things

1) I'm not making my point correctly
2) People are clueless when it comes to actually diagnosing their class and doing some simple math

I'm going with option 2

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now since I really dont want to repeat myself over and over and over and over. And I also don't want to be coaxed by trolls,

And for the record, people stating they played MMO's back way when doesn't mean

A) Your better at MMO's
Your a better person
C) you've a higher right to your opinion being heard

It typically just means you very similar to a Liverpool fan stuck with nostalgia : /

You complain about it being like the old CS forum of old, then say you're exiting the discussion (fair enough) but then take a bunch of swipes at the opposing side? Do you not see the irony here at all?

Ivan

And isn't EVE online one of the most modded MMO engines going? It has full support for XML scripting. People even created bots using it's UI/Modding engine...

nesf

TheDoc wrote: »

Nah not exactly.

Typically with every major MMO that has arrived in Europe/US, blizzard has had a content patch at the go.

This time however, it was very evident both were waiting for someone to break the silence. Blizzard announced 4.3 and about 3 days later I'd an email telling me about early access.

Probably not directly related, but Blizzard always launch content when a new MMO comes on the scene to peak peoples interest in WoW.

I also think that statement is a bit sweeping and incorrect. They typically release new content when the previous tier is very much on farm, there has been instances where its gone on too long, but I think they have identified content needs to come quicker.

I could be remembering it wrong.

nesf

Ivan wrote: »

Rift had a dps meter. </Devil's Advocate>

And I too share the opinion that a dps meter is very important for modern MMO's UI. I still haven't played SW:TOR, but my experiences with MMOs and raiding lead me to believe that dps meters and threat meters are very important for raiding endgame content. Otherwise you would need rainman-esque abilities to keep track of and calculate tank threat compared to your own threat in real-time. Not to mention the fact that you would have no idea if your tank was good or bad, which in itself causes problems.

A game not having them doesn't make it a bad game though, that's where I disagree - it simply makes it a new one, but it does need these features - eventually or players will leave. I know it sounds silly and/or petty, but it's emperical facts.

Do we need live DPS meters or good logs after raids though? I know for organised groups logs were far more important to us than live meters.

Dustaz

I started playing MUD's in the mid 90s and damn but there was a penalty for death. It took a million years to grind your way to level cap with no quests to help you out and your gear got looted when you got killed by another player.


I had a lot of fun but i dont miss it and i wouldnt go back to it. Things evolve. If people really did prefer paying the ridiculous price of death in eq, then eq would have 10 million subs and not wow. SOE would have incorporated aspects of eq and uo into their game, not wow.

Even within wow itself, people hark back to the "glory days" of vanilla. Wow these days is a far better mmo for the most part than vanilla. Unless you liked farming for more time than you raided, or liked having the choice of 1 talent tree only etc etc.

Every new mmo on the market has to look at these things and decide to adopt them or not. I guess i just dont understand how soe could have adopted so much of the good stuff in wow and given us the worst ui in recent history.

Draupnir

TheDoc wrote: »

Sigh, this forum is just turning into the old counter strike one for me....

The sheer lack of grasp on the point I'm asking is down to two things

1) I'm not making my point correctly
2) People are clueless when it comes to actually diagnosing their class and doing some simple math

I'm going with option 2

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now since I really dont want to repeat myself over and over and over and over. And I also don't want to be coaxed by trolls,

And for the record, people stating they played MMO's back way when doesn't mean

A) Your better at MMO's
Your a better person
C) you've a higher right to your opinion being heard

It typically just means you very similar to a Liverpool fan stuck with nostalgia : /

You are definitely not making your point very well, for what it's worth I definitely think a combat log would be a very good addition to the game.

I would be in favour of that, but not necessarily in favour of in game tools to review it or in game tools to let me monitor party members health, performance or aggro. I think a certain amount of user error and responsibility has to be fostered.

I wouldn't even begin to say that because I played MMOs a long time ago that I am anywhere near your playing ability, I didn't mean my point to sound like that. I am in fact quite restricted in my experience of anything beyond single player in WoW (have never been in a raid) and haven't played many of the other MMOs for anything more than a few days.

On the other side of the coin, just because I don't have that experience and have to Google terms like AoE and HoT shouldn't mean that my opinion is any less.

Kiith

With regard to threat/dps meters, is it not more fun and a better learning experience to figure out yourself if you are doing enough threat/dps? I mean, does it not take some of the fun out of it if a counter tells you to stop attacking for a few seconds as your about to get aggro? Surely you know the tank is good enough if he keeps aggro regardless of how much dps you do? Seems like it is just designed to make things easier, rather than better (though i may be wrong).

I'll absolutely hold my hand up as a total non-raider (cleared Kara in BC :pac:) so this is more of a question than an opinion. I've no real experience with it endgame.

Draupnir

Dustaz wrote: »

I started playing MUD's in the mid 90s and damn but there was a penalty for death. It took a million years to grind your way to level cap with no quests to help you out and your gear got looted when you got killed by another player.

Those were the days. What I think was a pretty innovative idea in MUDs that I haven't seen in WoW or any of the others, perhaps you can clarify, was the ability to re-roll characters once you hit level cap, maintaining abilities from previous classes.

That made for some serious power. It also made dying feel even worse every time it happened.

Ivan

DPS meters certainly don't need to be live, Rift has proven that in my mind. It's an inconvenience but it still allows theory-crafting and progression in terms of class builds etc.

SWTOR is Bioware/EA not SOE, right? Or am I missing something...?

Draupnir

nesf wrote: »

Do we need live DPS meters or good logs after raids though? I know for organised groups logs were far more important to us than live meters.

I think this is the point I am trying to make too, I'd be all for this idea.

Dustaz

Draupnir wrote: »

I would be in favour of that,

but not necessarily in favour of in game tools to review it or in game tools to let me monitor party members health

, performance or aggro. I think a certain amount of user error and responsibility has to be fostered.

You mean like Unit Frames? Is it 'cheating' to use the unit frames provided to heal players up going by who has the lowest health on the 'meters'. Or should you turn off unit frames and use your experience to decide who needs the heals more?

That might be a silly example but i guess its all shades of grey.

On the other side of the coin, just because I don't have that experience and have to Google terms like AoE and HoT shouldn't mean that my opinion is any less.

Well, surely if you have no experience of raiding and have to google terms like aoe and hots, shouldnt that actually mean your opinion on a tool that directly caters to raiding is somewhat useless?

nesf

Kiith wrote: »

I'll absolutely hold my hand up as a total non-raider (cleared Kara in BC :pac:) so this is more of a question than an opinion. I've no real experience with it endgame.

Well, the thing in WoW was that it became very much tuned to everyone having a threat meter. On some bosses, the enrage timer was tight enough that losing one character to them aggroing the boss meant a wipe pretty much with certainty.

Though yes, a meter took the challenge out of it, and later on Blizzard made aggroing off a decently played tank almost impossible when they bumped up threat for tanks by a large margin.

*shrugs*

These things evolve, the problems change from tanks being able to survive, to threat being tight to whatever.

Draupnir

Dustaz wrote: »

You mean like Unit Frames? Is it 'cheating' to use the unit frames provided to heal players up going by who has the lowest health on the 'meters'. Or should you turn off unit frames and use your experience to decide who needs the heals more?

That might be a silly example but i guess its all shades of grey.



Well, surely if you have no experience of raiding and have to google terms like aoe and hots, shouldnt that actually mean your opinion on a tool that directly caters to raiding is somewhat useless?

Re: Your first point, I just think that it makes it more challenging if the tools are non live and creates a more involved game. It's a bit live automatic -v- manual gearboxes if that's a good analogy. I think all that is really required on screen is the ability to monitor health on your team mates and the ability to monitor health on the mob. Aggro, DPS etc. are convenience tools in my opinion.

Re: Your second point, I don't agree. I may have never raided but I have any opinion on the fundamental approach to playing the game and what I think is unnecessary dumbing down of the UI for the purpose of making the game easier.

Dustaz

Draupnir wrote: »

Those were the days. What I think was a pretty innovative idea in MUDs that I haven't seen in WoW or any of the others, perhaps you can clarify, was the ability to re-roll characters once you hit level cap, maintaining abilities from previous classes.

That made for some serious power. It also made dying feel even worse every time it happened.

God, It would be great if some game got multiclassing right, Ive always thought as well it would make balancing so much easier. The only problem is that everyone then becomes cookie cutter very quickly.

Draupnir

Dustaz wrote: »

God, It would be great if some game got multiclassing right, Ive always thought as well it would make balancing so much easier. The only problem is that everyone then becomes cookie cutter very quickly.

That's a good point, I suppose some way to re-roll or multiclass without maintaining all abilities, only a selection which is a one time choice, might work to keep things fresh and also stop people becoming super powered aswell.

oxo_

Just to point out, Rift did have dps and hps meters. Albeit third party with one of the better coming from the old EQ meter from same lads, just used a Rift plugin.
We used them for raiding when I was playing, along with a lot of theorcrafting to get the best builds etc.,
If I remember rightly, it was about 2 months into Rift when the first stable and dependable dps/hps meters appeared publicly for it.

Kirby

Yes but the point is that no new MMO has them built in for obvious reasons. It's then becomes whether or not the makers of the game allows addons.

Ivan

oxo_ wrote: »

Just to point out, Rift did have dps and hps meters. Albeit third party with one of the better coming from the old EQ meter from same lads, just used a Rift plugin.
We used them for raiding when I was playing, along with a lot of theorcrafting to get the best builds etc.,
If I remember rightly, it was about 2 months into Rift when the first stable and dependable dps/hps meters appeared publicly for it.

I only played Rift for 2.5 months, excluding beta. There was a curse dps meter from launch with the EQ one being ported about 3 weeks after launch. DPS meters are vital for theory crafting class specs and considering how harsh the end-game content was in that game, it was incredibly important. By the end there was real-time feedback, albeit, as you say; through a third party program. The level of information was amazing though - kind of puts recount et al. to shame.

oxo_

Of course but Rift didn't allow them either per se, you just enabled the combatlog option manually or via startup ini config file and the third party software did the rest.
Whether people like it or not, it's more or less a de facto standard these days.
If the devs don't enable them or give options to build your own from combatlogs or whatever, people will find other ways to do it.
Even games like bf3 have had numerous theory crafting done on the best gun to use with a time to kill ratio at various distances.

At the very least, threat meters should be standard. Dps meters could be considered a luxury maybe or something further down the line to develop (or just provide combatlog ability so others can do it) but with the lack of even a target of target, it can be frustrating in end game for everyone when the only way you're finding out you're pulling agro from a tank is when the boss is suddenly all over you, or you're just dead in an instant.

Cookie cutter builds will come anyway, people will figure them out even without dps meters, the lack of a dps meter for that purpose will just prolong the perceived best builds by a few days come end game raiding on a larger scale.

On a side note, even though my purchase of the game was fully refunded by origin, including preorder fee - my account and game is still active o.O

oxo_

Yeah Ivan, sure I had specs all setup for each scenario after theorycrafting
One melée for raids, one ranged for raids, one bard for raids, and one for pvp.
I ended up swiching the pvp one to tank spec and used the bard spec for pvp but apparently now you can purhase more talent spec slots to play with (6 I'm told).

I've no doubt the lads that created the EQ parser will create a plugin for swtor eventually too once they can.

nesf

oxo_ wrote: »

At the very least, threat meters should be standard.

I haven't been raiding so I don't know but I'm curious if threat is actually a problem in this game or did they follow WoW's Cata "threat doesn't matter once the tank has a clue" model?

Puding

i wonder if any mmo in the future will ever be the same, everyone complains they want something different and the complains that a games goes not have everything wow had after half a decade ( the fact half the fetchers wow added come from the community and not themselves )

I do not want wow i played it for 3 years and it just become go empty and played it for the sack of playing it just to get to point A and then B in power, i want a game that is fun and not a second job, take swtor for what it is and just have fun! and i the only one that thinks this way?