Star Wars: The Old Republic General Discussion

Blowfish

nesf wrote: »

I haven't been raiding so I don't know but I'm curious if threat is actually a problem in this game or did they follow WoW's Cata "threat doesn't matter once the tank has a clue" model?

I haven't raided myself, but have tanked normal and the odd hm flashpoint as a Sith Warrior Immortal.

Single target threat is straightforward enough, if you use your abilities as you should, you wont have an issue. I have actually tested it by just using the most basic attack I had to see how forgiving it is and yes, the dps will pull from you in that case, as you'd expect.

AoE tanking is definitely not WoTLK/Cata style, in particular as Warriors have no spammable AoE abilities, we have a 30s CD AoE taunt, a 12s CD 5 metre AoE ability and a high cost frontal conal ability (normally you'll have the resources for one cast, in some cases you may be able to squeeze 2).

Combining the above abilities with tab+single target attacks will get you through low health trash etc. no problem. For groups of elites/champions though, you'll need cc or a kill order as you wont really be able to keep up enough threat on each mob over time if dps are attacking all of them.

Healing threat is there as far as I can tell. I haven't had any issues with healers pulling mobs away from me, but it for say, the boss in Black Talon that drops those probes that you need to avoid, some will definitely head for your healer.

tl'dr version, tanking (or at least SW version of it) is much closer to TBC warrior than it would be any Wrath/Cata tank.

Puding

Blowfish wrote: »

I haven't raided myself, but have tanked normal and the odd hm flashpoint as a Sith Warrior Immortal.

Single target threat is straightforward enough, if you use your abilities as you should, you wont have an issue. I have actually tested it by just using the most basic attack I had to see how forgiving it is and yes, the dps will pull from you in that case, as you'd expect.

AoE tanking is definitely not WoTLK/Cata style, in particular as Warriors have no spammable AoE abilities, we have a 30s CD AoE taunt, a 12s CD 5 metre AoE ability and a high cost frontal conal ability (normally you'll have the resources for one cast, in some cases you may be able to squeeze 2).

Combining the above abilities with tab+single target attacks will get you through low health trash etc. no problem. For groups of elites/champions though, you'll need cc or a kill order as you wont really be able to keep up enough threat on each mob over time if dps are attacking all of them.

tl'dr version, tanking (or at least SW version of it) is much closer to TBC than it would be to Wrath/Cata.

you just have to switch of wow thinking from my experience a lot of players just expect to go in and do just one thing, that other stuff is the healers or tanks job, tanking and healing is not the same enfact the whole thing is not the same, for me roles are more fuzzy in swtor and you need to be more adaptable, all classes are not 100% focused on one task, everyone in the ground needs to be adaptable enough to adjust their thinking, as a trooper im constantly switching between healing dps tanking and dps from group to group and mob to mob

nesf

Blowfish wrote: »

I haven't raided myself, but have tanked normal and the odd hm flashpoint as a Sith Warrior Immortal.

Single target threat is straightforward enough, if you use your abilities as you should, you wont have an issue. I have actually tested it by just using the most basic attack I had to see how forgiving it is and yes, the dps will pull from you in that case, as you'd expect.

AoE tanking is definitely not WoTLK/Cata style, in particular as Warriors have no spammable AoE abilities, we have a 30s CD AoE taunt, a 12s CD 5 metre AoE ability and a high cost frontal conal ability (normally you'll have the resources for one cast, in some cases you may be able to squeeze 2).

Combining the above abilities with tab+single target attacks will get you through low health trash etc. no problem. For groups of elites/champions though, you'll need cc or a kill order as you wont really be able to keep up enough threat on each mob over time if dps are attacking all of them.

Healing threat is there as far as I can tell. I haven't had any issues with healers pulling mobs away from me, but it for say, the boss in Black Talon that drops those probes that you need to avoid, some will definitely head for your healer.

tl'dr version, tanking (or at least SW version of it) is much closer to TBC warrior than it would be any Wrath/Cata tank.

Yeah with the Sith Assassin tanking trees there was a definite divergence between a single target threat build and an AoE threat build. Looked very much like they were designed to be either good main tanks or good off-tanks but not both at the same time with the same build.

Kirby

bloody mainenance. Was looking forward to playing this morning. Forgot that they pushed it from tuesday.

Omphin

yet again the maintenence time suits the sleeping americans. Has anyone been keeping track on this or have the americans had to endure maintenence during our sleep hours?

nesf

Omphin wrote: »

yet again the maintenence time suits the sleeping americans. Has anyone been keeping track on this or have the americans had to endure maintenence during our sleep hours?

I think the problem is our sleep hours coincide very much with the end of American prime time, while American sleep hours coincide with very much off-peak times here.

I don't like it but for minimum disruption choosing to do it at American time makes sense.

Kirby

Bioware claim that european data suggests morning time is the least played. While I would agree with that, I think starting an eight hour maintenance at 4 am instead of 8 am would be a much better balance between the yanks and us.

nesf

Kirby wrote: »

Bioware claim that european data suggests morning time is the least played. While I would agree with that, I think starting an eight hour maintenance at 4 am instead of 8 am would be a much better balance between the yanks and us.

More people play 4am to 8am than whatever time before midday perhaps? MMOs do attract insomniacs. And school/work/college will tie people up from about 8am on anyway for a lot of the player base.

Omphin

nesf wrote: »

I think the problem is our sleep hours coincide very much with the end of American prime time, while American sleep hours coincide with very much off-peak times here.

I don't like it but for minimum disruption choosing to do it at American time makes sense.

Well why not just down the european servers seperately to the american ones? yes i know ur answer to that then they would jump onto our servers when their servers were down, however if they made a system for account holders to choose a server ( lets call it main server ) then if your main server was an american one and was down for maintenence then you would be locked out of european servers for the time the american servers were down. likewise with europeans unable to jump onto american servers when their servers were down.

Why cant they just bring in a system to identify which bracket of servers u belong to and lock you out instead of this crap we have to deal with atm. Shouldnt be a hard thing to set up

nesf

Omphin wrote: »

Well why not just down the european servers seperately to the american ones? yes i know ur answer to that then they would jump onto our servers when their servers were down, however if they made a system for account holders to choose a server ( lets call it main server ) then if your main server was an american one and was down for maintenence then you would be locked out of european servers for the time the american servers were down. likewise with europeans unable to jump onto american servers when their servers were down.

Why cant they just bring in a system to identify which bracket of servers u belong to and lock you out instead of this crap we have to deal with atm. Shouldnt be a hard thing to set up

They'd have had to region lock the software from day one to do that right. They didn't go that route so we're stuck with synchronised downtimes at the moment. Choosing which servers to play on introduces another customer support issue with people a few months in deciding they want to play European now not US and so on, and muppets choosing the wrong server set when starting out.

Keeping it simple enough for a 7 year old to set up and run the game has its advantages. Don't get me wrong though, I'd have preferred region locked copies.

Omphin

surely they could come up with a way to add some code to your account details making you choose if u were on american or european servers and then lock you from the regional servers thats not under maintenence when your regional server group is?

Would be better than this crap of feeling second place to the americans

Dcully

Servers are up now according to server status on the website.

Blowfish

Dcully wrote: »

Servers are up now according to server status on the website.

They are indeed up, I'm logged in. No idea why, but I'm certainly not complaining.

Kirby

Dcully wrote: »

Servers are up now according to server status on the website.

I can confirm this. Patched and up. Thanks Dcully.

3 hours instead of 8? way to go Bioware!

TheDoc

nesf wrote: »

I haven't been raiding so I don't know but I'm curious if threat is actually a problem in this game or did they follow WoW's Cata "threat doesn't matter once the tank has a clue" model?

There is definitly some issues with holding threat but that will be rectified with better gear as my character develops.

Its nigh on impossible to do any theorycrafting at this time without any combat logs or meters of any sort, so I'm pissing in the wind.

Found last night going through an instance that packs of mobs are spread out too far. Its a small mechanic, but it makes it very difficult to hold aoe threat. Nearly every pack had 2-3 ranged mobs spread out so far that it was impossible to hold aggro on everything.

As a jedi guardian I typically open with Force leap , The aoe jumping ground slam thing, then a force sweep and then build focus to rinse repeat on aoe packs.

Single target I'm opening with force leap, stacking sunders and using slash( i think the ability is called) and force swipe thingy to build threat.

It seems to be working but its difficult to identify if its the most efficent method.

The above would be the main arguement for a combat log or damage meter. I'd be able to tell what abilities are putting out the most TPS per Focus cost and create an efficent rotation. But I guess on the fly and through feeling I've got something that works.

Jedi Guardians are being reported as having issues holding threat through endgame, but I think that is very much gear related.

WoW changed the way threat works last patch which was a nice change in my opinion. Through heroic progression, it was not common for a tank to loose threat. You got to a certain point where you knew it wasnt going to happen, in essence it was a useless mechanic that you had to occasionaly throw an eye on, but mostly ignore.

With the change to threat, it has allowed tanks to reforge, regem and essentially rethink their gear and talent strategies to focus on things like avoidance, block stamina etc.

I for one like the change as now instead of ignoring threat and it being a completely redundant feature, there is more thinking and thought now put into your tanks setup to maximise tanking stats like avoidance etc.

TheDoc

Omphin wrote: »

yet again the maintenence time suits the sleeping americans. Has anyone been keeping track on this or have the americans had to endure maintenence during our sleep hours?

Europe gets shafted end off.

With higher customer base in the US, I can vaguaely understand why.

It sthe penalty you pay for not having region locked servers, otherwise there could be two different maintenance schedules.

jeawan

TheDoc wrote: »

Europe gets shafted end off.

With higher customer base in the US, I can vaguaely understand why.

It sthe penalty you pay for not having region locked servers, otherwise there could be two different maintenance schedules.

Server are back up anyway . Also Doc what level is you Guardian now ? i start the exact same was when tanking and aye Pack can be a pain and srgo is hard to manage but do able as long as you have a decent group and they hitting the proper mob

oxo_

Kirby wrote: »

Bioware claim that european data suggests morning time is the least played. While I would agree with that, I think starting an eight hour maintenance at 4 am instead of 8 am would be a much better balance between the yanks and us.

I logged on to play at roughly 5:30am this morning (my account is still active for some reason) and my main server I'd chosen (a US east coast one) was full. Every single Euro one was Light pop. Most other US were Full and Very Heavy/Heavy.

It would be better if they split the maintenance times regardless anyway but probably due to some antiquated set-up or their Irish lads either not having proper access/training or being allowed too. Complain on their forums, the more that complain, the more they'll have to listen and at least give a decent worthwhile response.

Americans tend to stay subscribed, while threatening to unsubscribe, and continuing to complain all the time until they get what they wanted.

Europeans will tend to just get pissed off and stop logging in and/or stop subscribing/cancel subs if they're not accommodated.
Left over from war times, they give up too easily - I blame the French mostly

Gummy Panda

Blowfish wrote: »

tl'dr version, tanking (or at least SW version of it) is much closer to TBC warrior than it would be any Wrath/Cata tank.

Yeah I rerolled a Sith Juggernaut and discovered this. I love it. I was a Prot Warrior back in TBC. Had so much fun last night tanking. Does it get a high threat ability like shield slam later in the game?

EDIT: now that I'm logged in, maybe its Force Scream as it gives def bonuses later in the tree

Blowfish

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Yeah I rerolled a Sith Juggernaut and discovered this. I love it. I was a Prot Warrior back in TBC. Had so much fun last night tanking. Does it get a high threat ability like shield slam later in the game?

EDIT: now that I'm logged in, maybe its Force Scream as it gives def bonuses later in the tree

Backhand is 21 points into the Immortal tree and gives a stun and high threat to a single target. You'll always have it if you are going full Immortal or in most pvp builds. Immortal/Veng tanks don't always go for it though.

TheDoc

jeawan wrote: »

Server are back up anyway . Also Doc what level is you Guardian now ? i start the exact same was when tanking and aye Pack can be a pain and srgo is hard to manage but do able as long as you have a decent group and they hitting the proper mob

32 at the moment.

Definitly doesnt help that I've had some really fresh mmo players in most of the instances I've done, where people are hitting anything ande verything that moves.

Thats another annoying factor thats getting to me lately. Alot of people are treating this as like a CO-OP RPG. While it might feel that way, its a poor excuse for having NO CLUE what to do in a party environment. While everyone has to learn, there seems to be alot of reluctance to take direction ,advice and putting some effort into learning how an MMO plays.

For as much as WoW is a victim of slackers, its pretty severe here too

jeawan

TheDoc wrote: »

32 at the moment.

Definitly doesnt help that I've had some really fresh mmo players in most of the instances I've done, where people are hitting anything ande verything that moves.

Thats another annoying factor thats getting to me lately. Alot of people are treating this as like a CO-OP RPG. While it might feel that way, its a poor excuse for having NO CLUE what to do in a party environment. While everyone has to learn, there seems to be alot of reluctance to take direction ,advice and putting some effort into learning how an MMO plays.

For as much as WoW is a victim of slackers, its pretty severe here too

I have had the complete opposite on that front , group i have had one bad one where the tank really was a idiot , on the ones i have tanked i mark up mobs to be CCed and so on i have meet a few people while leveling that i tend to meet in the same area i am in all the time and we tend to run the heroics together which works great and we hammer then.

You on a pvp sever ? i play PVE i think you get a different sort of player on there and they tend to listen , i once had a group i was healing where the leader kicked a dps as he pulled the pack of mobs ahead of the tank.

Gummy Panda

TheDoc wrote: »

32 at the moment.

Definitly doesnt help that I've had some really fresh mmo players in most of the instances I've done, where people are hitting anything ande verything that moves.

Thats another annoying factor thats getting to me lately. Alot of people are treating this as like a CO-OP RPG. While it might feel that way, its a poor excuse for having NO CLUE what to do in a party environment. While everyone has to learn, there seems to be alot of reluctance to take direction ,advice and putting some effort into learning how an MMO plays.

For as much as WoW is a victim of slackers, its pretty severe here too

I've had some right noobs in heroic missions. Attacking different mobs even though I marked the main one. The mobs would stun me so i couldn't build any decent threat at start than have to play catch up.

Flashpoints were fine though. Everyone I've pugged has been people who understand mmo concepts. All i have to say is Juggernaut is single target tank and they know not to hit everything.

I blame powertechs. They are the wotlk prot pallies of SWTOR :pac:

humanji

It might be worth considering that not everyone plays as many MMO's as the rest of you. Lots of people saw that there was a Star Wars game and wanted to give it a try. And many of them get utter abuse for not fully understanding what they're doing.

I play SWTOR as a single player game, for two reasons: 1) I wanted Knights Of The Old Republic 3 and this is the nearest thing to it, and 2) I haven't a f*cking breeze what half of you are talking about most of the time. I've played a fair few MMO's, but have never had enough time to invest heavily in them. As a result, I don't know most of the lingo you use and the last 10 or so pages of this thread has been utter gibberish to me.

And I know I'm not the only one. It's fairly daunting trying to get to grips with an MMO for the first time or if you're not too experienced with them. It comes naturally to some and can be learned easily enough if you've got the time. But it's unfair to assume everyone must be of a superior standard. The pure vitriol you receive because you don't instantly know what to do at every occasion destroys the experience for a lot of people.

If someone in a group isn't pulling their weight, or cocks up, how about actually telling them what they did wrong and giving them an indication as to what they should do? If they continue to faff about them kick them. But at least give people a chance. Get into the feel of things and assume they're the Padawan to your Jedi Master. With the right mentor they could go on to achieve great things. Or build a giant, planet-killing spacestation. It goes either way.

TheDoc

humanji wrote: »

If someone in a group isn't pulling their weight, or cocks up, how about actually telling them what they did wrong and giving them an indication as to what they should do? If they continue to faff about them kick them. But at least give people a chance. Get into the feel of things and assume they're the Padawan to your Jedi Master. With the right mentor they could go on to achieve great things. Or build a giant, planet-killing spacestation. It goes either way.

Well I'm doing that for sure. I havnt actually raged at anyone in SWTOR yet in terms of literally blasting them out of it. Its a new MMO so there is bound to be people new to the genre.

It is a touch dissapointing that most have been unreceptive to the advice I've been giving, and believe me its been in a nice and non condacending fashion, but there is a really big feel at times its just one big single player game : /

They have ingame help popups for just about everything ( very good idea btw) but they don't have one for how to operate within an instance or heroic.

Humanji for example ( you might have played mmo's, no idea) but lets say I'm his ingame popup when he walks into an instance for the first time ( also remembering the help topics should be short and concise)


As a Tank your help box :

Ensure you are hitting mobs first and with big hits to hold mobs attention.
If mobs start hitting other character, taunt back ASAP.
DPS players should focus on your target, if not ask politely that they do.
If you find someone constantly pulling mobs attention, ask nicely that they slow down their damage.

As a healer your help box:

Ensure the tank is kept on high health at all times
Be smart with your heals, run out of mana, run out of heals
If tank is loosing attention and DPS are taking big damage, ask kindly that DPS let tank take the damage

As a DPS

Focus the target of your tank
Interupt abilities as often as possible
Use stuns, locks and other CC abilities on mobs in large packs

Legend

MOB = AI controlled enemy
CC = Crowd Control, Holding an enemy mob in position to make ineffective
Threat = The amount of threat a tank builds helps ensure attention is kept on them
Aggro = Aggrivation ,the attention a mob gives to a player, ideally tank
HoT's = Heal over time spell
DoT's = Dame over time spells
Nuke = Hit the target as hard as possible
CR = Combat res, revive a down player during combat
Kite = Keep the target CC'd, or slowed and run around so that it does not cause dmg
DPS = Damage per second, you wont know cause theres no meters

Simple as

Draupnir

Well hasn't this turned into a rather useful and enjoyable discussion!

Kirby

I'm always helpful regarding new people and you can see them a mile away. The problem is that no matter what way you try and put it, most of them get super defensive and won't listen. The worst example of this I experienced today.

I swear im not making this up. I'm a Merc, about level 33 and on Alderaan at the moment. I grouped up to do a quick 4 man heroic. There was another merc in the group with me. I asked him his spec and he said Arsenal which was grand. I am too but I decided to heal for us anyway.

Tracer missile is the best skill in this tree by a mile and every merc should be using it. I noticed straight away that he wasn't and was just spamming Rapid fire......which is basically the standard Merc auto attack number 1 button. He just spammed it. all day. Even though he had 0 heat and could use whatever ability he wanted.....he just spammed auto attack.

I tried to explain to him over and over that he was doing the minimum amount of damage possible and to use tracer shot or unload. He just started arguing with me telling me he could do more dps than any other Merc on the server.

This lad was level 34. How he managed to get that high I'll never know. After 2 or 3 levels even new MMO players get a grasp on what their character is about. I've been playing MMO's for over a decade and I've never come accross a case quite as bad as this.

I guess its just the nature of "Star wars! Shiny!!!!"

Stev_o

Oh some of these horrible horrible bugs make me laugh http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/01/04/dancing-in-star-wars-the-old-republic-can-make-you-invincible/

Mr. K

humanji wrote: »

I play SWTOR as a single player game

This. I haven't really gotten any abuse yet because I've played very little. My Sith Inquisitor on Basilisk Droid is only L5 and my Jedi Knight on The Shadow Runner is only L11! I'd like to get more involved in the social side (I feel like I'm missing out), but I don't really have the time at the moment.

nesf

Kirby wrote: »

This lad was level 34. How he managed to get that high I'll never know. After 2 or 3 levels even new MMO players get a grasp on what their character is about. I've been playing MMO's for over a decade and I've never come accross a case quite as bad as this.

I guess its just the nature of "Star wars! Shiny!!!!"

I've seen as bad in WoW. Or at least a similar level of ignorance of people who thought they were entitled to a raid spot.