EBS building soc workers want annual Xmas bonus

the groutch

if they are legally entitled to it, why aren't they going to the courts?

hmmm

Bank employees are one of the few groups in Irish society who have had no pay cuts. Now they're fighting for their bonuses to be paid?

Fighting Irish

hmmm wrote: »

Bank employees are one of the few groups in Irish society who have had no pay cuts. Now they're fighting for their bonuses to be paid?

:rolleyes:

Fighting Irish

So much jealousy in this thread ha

Avatarr

hmmm wrote: »

Bank employees are one of the few groups in Irish society who have had no pay cuts. Now they're fighting for their bonuses to be paid?

What makes you think they have had no pay cuts

hmmm

Avatarr wrote: »

What makes you think they have had no pay cuts

Name a bank that has cut the pay of employees?

Avatarr

hmmm wrote: »

Name a bank that has cut the pay of employees?

If they are one of the few to have not taken a pay cut, who's the others?, lots of sectors have not cut salaries? What pay cuts are you talking about and what is the justification for such cuts?

By he way I dont work in a bank:)

sdanseo

starbelgrade wrote: »

"Front line" staff? They're desk job workers.

You make it sound like they work in a frigging war zone.

Yeah well I'm a frontline worker too - retail - and I like the definition. We have to deal with people who do and don't appreciate us, and even the odd idiot who tries to hurl abuse. Not something faced by the average desk job worker or middle manager.

noodler

Avatarr wrote: »

If they are one of the few to have not taken a pay cut, who's the others?, lots of sectors have not cut salaries? What pay cuts are you talking about and what is the justification for such cuts?

By he way I dont work in a bank:)

About 200,000 workers have had their pay vut from 500-600 per week to 200 a week.

Loads of sectors.

Avatarr

noodler wrote: »

About 200,000 workers have had their pay vut from 500-600 per week to 200 a week.

Loads of sectors.

please explain further, Thanks:)

200,000 out of 1.8mil does not seem like loads

http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/labourmarket/principalstatistics/

pretty-in-pink

Regarding pay cuts- aside from the general tax hikes we have all had, and the removal of bonuses and raises, who in an actual pensionable job has had a pay cut?

We have had our work load increased, and no monetary increase to go with it. Most of us are doing the work of 2 people, but on wages of 21-26k. Those slightly higher up have it a bit easier, those at the top are laughing. Is that fair? To have such a dramatic increase in workload, but nothing extra to show for it bar exhaustion, and abuse?

Could I please ask that the posters here attacking us, and saying we "don't deserve jobs" etc, leave? Its a nasty, pointless argument to make. Its also deeply upsetting to see the vitrol being aimed at those of us who are low-lying. We don't deserve that, and have in no way contributed to the financial mess anyone else is in. We are real people, on low wages, taking **** every day about other peoples money, trying to make ends meet. Its stressful to say the least.

I hope they give us the payment, and then allow us to restructure it in the way top level managment were able to. We were never given a choice about how this was to be paid, we were just told "You will get 2 pays in December, regardless". Those 2 pays cover the 4 extra weeks in the salary year. If they dont want to pay us twice in december, they need to bring up the average monthly wage to cover it, so that we still get our annual package.

We would not make a fuss if this was purely a bonus- we didnt when everything else was taken away, or when our work loads were increased so hugely, or when we "lose" hours (flexi time, if we go over 10 hours, and dont use it, we lose everything after 10 hours as unpaid work). and its not possible to take a flexi day every month, nor is it possible to work short days to keep the flexi time down. So not only have the EBS taken 4 weeks pay from us, they also take an average of half a day to a day per month from us to. Its really not fair.

Avatarr

Are ye going to strike?
What does your contracts call this payment?

Ignore the nasty stuff there is quite a bit of support out there.

Freddie59

pretty-in-pink wrote: »

Could I please ask that the posters here attacking us, and saying we "don't deserve jobs" etc, leave? Its a nasty, pointless argument to make. Its also deeply upsetting to see the vitrol being aimed at those of us who are low-lying. We don't deserve that, and have in no way contributed to the financial mess anyone else is in. We are real people, on low wages, taking **** every day about other peoples money, trying to make ends meet. Its stressful to say the least.

No-one is saying you don't deserve jobs - merely that you shouldn't have them. And as you do - take a long, hard look at yourself and be thankful that the fcuking rest of the country is paying for your overlord's mistakes.

THE COMPANY YOU WORK FOR SHOULD NOT EVEN EXIST.

In the normal world it would, unfortunately, have to cease trading, like many others who suffered a similar fate. Have you even spared a thought for those people, while you argue about mythical bonuses, which you consider "owed" to you by a ghost company?

FFS - get a grip. PLEASE.

Freddie59

Avatarr wrote: »

Are ye going to strike?
What does your contracts call this payment?

Ignore the nasty stuff there is quite a bit of support out there.

Operative world. There is also a world of anger.

amdublin

It'd be really helpful if someone could quote from their contract.

Eg.
Does it say:
Your salary will be xxxx paid over 13 months.

Or does it say:
Your salary will be made up of salary and if applicable a bonus, paid over 13 months.
(or something similar)

If it is the former I think you should fight it.
If it is not, let it go, imo.

billybudd

This whole thing is like the feckin corpoate bermuda triangle, do people who work there even know at this stage if its a bonus or wages? here is a suggestion.

2 choices.

1st: If it is wages and they are not paying you, down tools and bring them to court, if they are witholding your wages then you will win and be compensated.

2nd: if its a bonus, accept your bank that you work for srewed up, over everything and everyone and accept that you wont be getting a bonus wether you think you deserve it or not.

I have read this entire thread and even the people who work there haventh got a clue what it is or what it isnt and people wonder how it all went wrong.

Avatarr

Freddie59 wrote: »

Avatarr wrote: »

Are ye going to strike?
What does your contracts call this payment?

Ignore the nasty stuff there is quite a bit of support out there.

Operative world. There is also a world of anger.

Operative world??????????!!

Make love not war

Omg we have explained what our contracts say before in previous comments. Why don't you read over them instead of us reposting the same thing over and over.

Also to say our company shouldn't exsist do you just mean Ebs or all banks???

And I just wanted to say thanks to the people who have been so supportive I really thought when this started we'd get no support one of the managers that broke the news to us told us not to bother striking no one will care. But we where treated so well the other day our legs where in bits and it was cold and damp. think people are coming around to what we meant by it.
We just want what's right for workers and not one rule for the higher paid and another for the low paid.

Make love not war

THE COMPANY YOU WORK FOR SHOULD NOT EVEN EXIST.

In the normal world it would, unfortunately, have to cease trading, like many others who suffered a similar fate. Have you even spared a thought for those people, while you argue about mythical bonuses, which you consider "owed" to you by a ghost company?

FFS - get a grip. PLEASE.[/Quote]

No 1 it's not a "mythical bonus" I'll explain it one more time. Our contracts say our salary is e.g 25kpa however in December we will recieved 4 wks of this it's broken down in our contract like this
You work jan - march 1 wk
April- June 2 wks
July - sep 3 wks
Oct - dec 4 wks
Therefore we do not get this pay in our normal salary each month so we receive a reduced rate of pay each mth.
Also in our staff handbook it clearly states that this payment is made to all permanent staff in December EVERY YEAR. This makes up our 25k salary.

No 2 of course we've spared a thought for the people who have lost jobs these are our family members and friends. I've no doubt I'll be joining them in the next year or 2 when this whole merger is complete.
In fact at the moment I'd prob be better off on the dole.

No 3 for others that think we can just sue the company. I'll explain this again also. The minister for finance has complete power over our contract. They mean nothing. This is currently going through the courts but that will take time in the mean time we are making a stand for what is clearly wrong.

tiny_penguin

Make love not war wrote: »

THE COMPANY YOU WORK FOR SHOULD NOT EVEN EXIST.

In the normal world it would, unfortunately, have to cease trading, like many others who suffered a similar fate. Have you even spared a thought for those people, while you argue about mythical bonuses, which you consider "owed" to you by a ghost company?

FFS - get a grip. PLEASE.

No 1 it's not a "mythical bonus" I'll explain it one more time. Our contracts say our salary is e.g 25kpa however in December we will recieved 4 wks of this it's broken down in our contract like this
You work jan - march 1 wk
April- June 2 wks
July - sep 3 wks
Oct - dec 4 wks
Therefore we do not get this pay in our normal salary each month so we receive a reduced rate of pay each mth.
Also in our staff handbook it clearly states that this payment is made to all permanent staff in December EVERY YEAR. This makes up our 25k salary.

No 2 of course we've spared a thought for the people who have lost jobs these are our family members and friends. I've no doubt I'll be joining them in the next year or 2 when this whole merger is complete.
In fact at the moment I'd prob be better off on the dole.

No 3 for others that think we can just sue the company. I'll explain this again also. The minister for finance has complete power over our contract. They mean nothing. This is currently going through the courts but that will take time in the mean time we are making a stand for what is clearly wrong.[/QUOTE]


It has been said though if you leave your job before December you do not get paid any of this. So if it is not a bonus how can they legally withhold it from those people.

I'm not saying I think you don't deserve it or shouldn't get it necessarily. I'm just trying to understand how it can be defined as part of your salary but it does not have to be paid if you do not complete the full year. How is that worded in the contract. This does make it sound like it a bonus paid to those who complete a full year - a reward for staying all year.

Frank Black

Make love not war wrote: »

THE COMPANY YOU WORK FOR SHOULD NOT EVEN EXIST.

In the normal world it would, unfortunately, have to cease trading, like many others who suffered a similar fate. Have you even spared a thought for those people, while you argue about mythical bonuses, which you consider "owed" to you by a ghost company?

FFS - get a grip. PLEASE.

No 1 it's not a "mythical bonus" I'll explain it one more time. Our contracts say our salary is e.g 25kpa however in December we will recieved 4 wks of this it's broken down in our contract like this
You work jan - march 1 wk
April- June 2 wks
July - sep 3 wks
Oct - dec 4 wks
Therefore we do not get this pay in our normal salary each month so we receive a reduced rate of pay each mth.
Also in our staff handbook it clearly states that this payment is made to all permanent staff in December EVERY YEAR. This makes up our 25k salary.

No 2 of course we've spared a thought for the people who have lost jobs these are our family members and friends. I've no doubt I'll be joining them in the next year or 2 when this whole merger is complete.
In fact at the moment I'd prob be better off on the dole.

No 3 for others that think we can just sue the company. I'll explain this again also. The minister for finance has complete power over our contract. They mean nothing. This is currently going through the courts but that will take time in the mean time we are making a stand for what is clearly wrong.[/QUOTE]


Even if everything you've said regarding your contract interpretation is correct, it does not follow that what has happened is 'clearly wrong'. Companies which are in finantial difficulty need to cut overheads, this includes salary reductions to staff - your company is in trouble, therefore salary reductions are justified - happens all the time in the (real) private sector.

Make love not war

Tiny penguin They can take it cause they have power over our contracts.
The accounts for the company also state that no staff received a bonus on 09 and 2010 however we still got our salary yet this year they decided to say it was a bonus.
Unfortunately for the lower paid workers we cannot negotiate the terms of this payment. Your right if we leave before the payment is made we don't get it. But I accepted that in my contract when I began working there and wouldn't dispute it if I did leave before.
The same way they agreed to pay me this way. To be honest it suited me this way anyway cause it got me through the christmas.


Black francis i do get your point but what I meant by clearly wrong is the managers who earn a min of approx 90kpa upwards and the CEO who earns 380k got their payment no questions asked yet the lower paid workers fight for their right and people think we have a cheek.
I really think that if this was done in the form of a paycut each mth it could have been negotiated and accepted but it was just one large chunk of our salary taken from us at a time we need it most and without notice.
That's what I mean by clearly wrong

I can't speak for all Ebs employees but for me it not just about this payment it's about the rights of workers and the people who are struggling to get by today. The people on top only look after each other. Most people these days have accepted that that's how it is. I don't think it has to be this way. We are being supported by several TDs in the dail who have called upon the government to stop paying bonuses to bankers yet they clearly see what has happened here and are in full support of us.

Galtee

It all seems quite clear to me. If you're not entitled to the payment upon leaving the company prior to December then it's not salary, it's a bonus. It seems bizarre that anyone would argue otherwise in my opinion.

starbelgrade

sdeire wrote: »

Yeah well I'm a frontline worker too - retail - and I like the definition. We have to deal with people who do and don't appreciate us, and even the odd idiot who tries to hurl abuse. Not something faced by the average desk job worker or middle manager.

You're not a "frontline worker" - you're a shop assistant.

Make love not war

Galtee wrote: »

It all seems quite clear to me. If you're not entitled to the payment upon leaving the company prior to December then it's not salary, it's a bonus. It seems bizarre that anyone would argue otherwise in my opinion.

That's your opinion but as I explained above and in a previous posts my annual salary is 25k I agreed to a contract that said 4 wks where paid in December it's not a bonus it's not preformance related it nothing to do with how the company has done or how your work has been over the year it payable in December. Unfortunately for staff we didn't get the chance to change this in our contracts like managers did. Just cause we don't get it if we leave in June doesn't mean its a bonus it's the terms of our contract. Its not discretionary it's part of our annual income.

You can call it a bonus all you want but I'm just telling you the facts. It's not a bonus!!!!!

irelandrover

Make love not war wrote: »

That's your opinion but as I explained above and in a previous posts my annual salary is 25k I agreed to a contract that said 4 wks where paid in December it's not a bonus it's not preformance related it nothing to do with how the company has done or how your work has been over the year it payable in December. Unfortunately for staff we didn't get the chance to change this in our contracts like managers did. Just cause we don't get it if we leave in June doesn't mean its a bonus it's the terms of our contract. Its not discretionary it's part of our annual income.

You can call it a bonus all you want but I'm just telling you the facts. It's not a bonus!!!!!

This is the point I struggle to understand. The management get paid this money as it has been incorporated into their salary. The workers have not been paid this money as it has not been incorporated into their salary. You claim that it is part of your salary and also state that you didnt get a chance to incorporate it into your salary like management did. It is either one or the other.

Make love not war

irelandrover wrote: »

Make love not war wrote: »

That's your opinion but as I explained above and in a previous posts my annual salary is 25k I agreed to a contract that said 4 wks where paid in December it's not a bonus it's not preformance related it nothing to do with how the company has done or how your work has been over the year it payable in December. Unfortunately for staff we didn't get the chance to change this in our contracts like managers did. Just cause we don't get it if we leave in June doesn't mean its a bonus it's the terms of our contract. Its not discretionary it's part of our annual income.

You can call it a bonus all you want but I'm just telling you the facts. It's not a bonus!!!!!

This is the point I struggle to understand. The management get paid this money as it has been incorporated into their salary. The workers have not been paid this money as it has not been incorporated into their salary. You claim that it is part of your salary and also state that you didnt get a chance to incorporate it into your salary like management did. It is either one or the other.

No the management got the chance to take this monthly we didn't and have no say over this and dont have the option to take it mthly.
Now a lot of the managers dont take it mthly but yet still receive their payment in December.
This is where my anger mainly is.

It's so hard to explain. To me it sounds so simple but at the same time I understand your questions and where the confusion is.

The point I need to get across is when I began working for Ebs I agreed a certain salary the terms of this salary is that in December 4 weeks of your annual salary is paid. This is the contract I agreed to and that is where the dispute is.
We cannot change this part. we where never given an option to change and didn't know the managers where.

Now while that might not sound normal to you it was perfectly normal in Ebs as it had always been done this way.

I hope this makes some sense to you.

Galtee

Make love not war wrote: »

That's your opinion but as I explained above and in a previous posts my annual salary is 25k I agreed to a contract that said 4 wks where paid in December it's not a bonus it's not preformance related it nothing to do with how the company has done or how your work has been over the year it payable in December. Unfortunately for staff we didn't get the chance to change this in our contracts like managers did. Just cause we don't get it if we leave in June doesn't mean its a bonus it's the terms of our contract. Its not discretionary it's part of our annual income.

You can call it a bonus all you want but I'm just telling you the facts. It's not a bonus!!!!!

Are you entitled to the money if you leave the company before December?

Make love not war

Galtee wrote: »

Make love not war wrote: »

That's your opinion but as I explained above and in a previous posts my annual salary is 25k I agreed to a contract that said 4 wks where paid in December it's not a bonus it's not preformance related it nothing to do with how the company has done or how your work has been over the year it payable in December. Unfortunately for staff we didn't get the chance to change this in our contracts like managers did. Just cause we don't get it if we leave in June doesn't mean its a bonus it's the terms of our contract. Its not discretionary it's part of our annual income.

You can call it a bonus all you want but I'm just telling you the facts. It's not a bonus!!!!!

Are you entitled to the money if you leave the company before December?

Galtee I'm so sorry I don't want to be rude but I've explained that about 4 times in the posts above

TheZohanS

Jaysus are you guys still looking for a bonus? You're not getting one, your company is broke and is being propped up by the tax-payer. It's no reflection on you guys as workers though.

If it wasn't a bonus you'd have it right now or the EBS would have been brought to court.

Galtee

Make love not war wrote: »

Galtee I'm so sorry I don't want to be rude but I've explained that about 4 times in the posts above

Oh, I must have missed that, sorry, I thought I had gone through everything above and am still none the wiser as to the answer to my question. Just to save me thrawling through massive amounts of data could you maybe leave out the explanation please and just specify, is it (Yes) you are entitled to it if you leave before December or (No) you are not entitled to it if you leave before December?

ebbsy

13th Month Bonus ? I thought that there were only 12 months in da fupping year.

Make love not war

Galtee wrote: »

Make love not war wrote: »

Galtee I'm so sorry I don't want to be rude but I've explained that about 4 times in the posts above

Oh, I must have missed that, sorry, I thought I had gone through everything above and am still none the wiser as to the answer to my question. Just to save me thrawling through massive amounts of data could you maybe leave out the explanation please and just specify, is it (Yes) you are entitled to it if you leave before December or (No) you are not entitled to it if you leave before December?

Haha no
But as I said before that's the contract I agreed to so if I leave before this date I can't dispute this.
But I need to explain its not a bonus. It's part of my annual salary.
Legally I can't dispute it if I leave before and legally they should pay it if I stay.
Just cause it's paid once a year does not make it a bonus it's the annual salary I agreed and it's always been this way in Ebs. I know that prob doesn't make sense to you but that's how I agreed my salary was paid.
Technically now my salary is down to 23k when my contract still says 25k.

irelandrover

Make love not war wrote: »

Haha no
But as I said before that's the contract I agreed to so if I leave before this date I can't dispute this.
But I need to explain its not a bonus. It's part of my annual salary.
Legally I can't dispute it if I leave before and legally they should pay it if I stay.
Just cause it's paid once a year does not make it a bonus it's the annual salary I agreed and it's always been this way in Ebs. I know that prob doesn't make sense to you but that's how I agreed my salary was paid.
Technically now my salary is down to 23k when my contract still says 25k.

Make love not war, thanks for your responses so far.
I also read that you cannot make pension contributions based on this 13th month payment so therefore it is technically classed as a bonus.

starbelgrade

ebbsy wrote: »

13th Month Bonus ? I thought that there were only 12 months in da fupping year.

You mean that the bank staff can't add?

No wonder they're not getting any bonuses this year!

Make love not war

irelandrover wrote: »

Make love not war wrote: »

Haha no
But as I said before that's the contract I agreed to so if I leave before this date I can't dispute this.
But I need to explain its not a bonus. It's part of my annual salary.
Legally I can't dispute it if I leave before and legally they should pay it if I stay.
Just cause it's paid once a year does not make it a bonus it's the annual salary I agreed and it's always been this way in Ebs. I know that prob doesn't make sense to you but that's how I agreed my salary was paid.
Technically now my salary is down to 23k when my contract still says 25k.

Make love not war, thanks for your responses so far.
I also read that you cannot make pension contributions based on this 13th month payment so therefore it is technically classed as a bonus.

I'll be honest I'm not 100% sure on this one.
I heard that myself and wasn't aware that it was non pensionable.
I think your right that this is why it's been classed as a bonus but I need to find out a bit more about this.
I don't know the facts on this one sorry

Make love not war

starbelgrade wrote: »

ebbsy wrote: »

13th Month Bonus ? I thought that there were only 12 months in da fupping year.

You mean that the bank staff can't add?

No wonder they're not getting any bonuses this year!

Hahahaha

Freddie59

TheZohan wrote: »

your company is broke and is being propped up by the tax-payer.

As we go round in circles this is what everyone is dancing around and ignoring.

Freddie59

black francis wrote: »

Companies which are in finantial difficulty need to cut overheads, this includes salary reductions to staff - your company is in trouble, therefore salary reductions are justified - happens all the time in the (real) private sector.

And, again, reality bites. Well put.

Make love not war

Freddie59 wrote: »

black francis wrote: »

Companies which are in finantial difficulty need to cut overheads, this includes salary reductions to staff - your company is in trouble, therefore salary reductions are justified - happens all the time in the (real) private sector.

And, again, reality bites. Well put.

And if your willing to except that thats fine but don't get annoyed at people who aren't. We've a legal right to strike. it will also be dealt with in the courts but im not gonna sit back and let the managers walk away with their massive pay packets and not a care in the world laughing at us cause we're too afraid to stand up for ourselves.

As I said before if I had of had a mthly salary reduction I would have understood and it could have been agreed but instead they took a large payment the day before we where due to get it at a time when people really need it after telling us we'd be getting it the week before and after all that they knew about it for mths!!!!
They said the reason the held off paying it was because they where afraid productivity would be effected while at the same time collecting there big pay-packets!!!!

I'm sorry but this whole reality bites is not good enough to me.

DrGreenthumb

If there so adamant that it is not a bonus and part of their contract I'd like to see a copy of the contract,

if its a bonus then you've no right to moan if you don't get it, post a copy of the contract and blank out any reference to your name,

has anyone seen any proof yet that says its part of their yearly salary or a bonus?

Avatarr

N

DrGreenthumb wrote: »

If there so adamant that it is not a bonus and part of their contract I'd like to see a copy of the contract,

if its a bonus then you've no right to moan if you don't get it, post a copy of the contract and blank out any reference to your name,

has anyone seen any proof yet that says its part of their yearly salary or a bonus?

Why do you want proof, is their word not enough, get a grip, asking people to post there contract on web is ridiculous.

We all need to put ourselfs in there shoes and stop the populist rubbish.

Snakeblood

Avatarr wrote: »

N

Why do you want proof, is their word not enough, get a grip, asking people to post there contract on web is ridiculous.

We all need to put ourselfs in there shoes and stop the populist rubbish.

No, it's not enough. If I went up to my boss and said 'Hey, I should be getting a bonus and I'm not' then the thing that supports my contention is my contract.

DrGreenthumb

Excuse me if I have no sympathy for anyone in the banking sector, but if its a bonus then they can piss off crying about not getting it,

Make love not war

Snakeblood wrote: »

Avatarr wrote: »

N

Why do you want proof, is their word not enough, get a grip, asking people to post there contract on web is ridiculous.

We all need to put ourselfs in there shoes and stop the populist rubbish.

No, it's not enough. If I went up to my boss and said 'Hey, I should be getting a bonus and I'm not' then the thing that supports my contention is my contract.

Yes cause it your boss he's seen your contract your not gonna start posting it on the Internet!!!!

They have our contracts they know what they say.

Make love not war

DrGreenthumb wrote: »

Excuse me if I have no sympathy for anyone in the banking sector, but if its a bonus then they can piss off crying about not getting it,

That's fair enough but it's not a bonus so I'll cry as much as I want!

Snakeblood

Make love not war wrote: »

Yes cause it your boss he's seen your contract your not gonna start posting it on the Internet!!!!

They have our contracts they know what they say.

I'm not going to take people on faith swearing up and down that they have a legal contract which is not being honoured when their trade union is not suing on their behalf. If it was open and shut, they would be.

DrGreenthumb

well the courts will decide if your entitled to it or not, and if it turns out your not I'll be laughing all day,

if it's part of your contract no one will have a problem with you getting it but right now all the general public know it's a bonus that your not getting and your having a tantrum about not getting it

Avatarr

I'm not going to take people on faith swearing up and down that they have a legal contract which is not being honoured when their trade union is not suing on their behalf. If it was open and shut, they would be.[/Quote]

Listen, regardless of what the contract says, management in EBS have pulled a stroke. Plain and simple. Instead of calling them moans/ cry-babies and other emotive names, they should be supported as its just another example of the tiers there are in Irish society, where people at the top will always be protected. Direct your anger at them not the employees

Make love not war

Snakeblood wrote: »

Make love not war wrote: »

Yes cause it your boss he's seen your contract your not gonna start posting it on the Internet!!!!

They have our contracts they know what they say.

I'm not going to take people on faith swearing up and down that they have a legal contract which is not being honoured when their trade union is not suing on their behalf. If it was open and shut, they would be.

Yeah but your taking the managements word they haven't produce anything but of course they're management and the government they must be telling the truth.

With regards to the suing you should read previous comments. We are looking at this our problem is the minister for finance has legal control over our contracts. So to be honest I don't think we'll get anywhere but I don't think we'll back down to easily.