Why are the British so anti Europe?

Phoenix One UK

Hi evryone. I am Phoenix One UK, and I am an anti EU activist in UK. Please note the anti EU as opposed to anti Europe. The two are far from same thing.

View

georgesstreet wrote: »

Its not actually a shift on my previous opinion, and if you think my previous opinion was that anyone is free to break the law, then that was never my opinion. The law is the law.

That is different from your previous position a few posts back:

georgesstreet wrote: »

I am afraid you are simply wrong. In a democracy my newspapers should operate exactly as I want them to, your newspapers should operate as you want them to, and no one in a democracy should be able to dictate to either of us what we choose to put in our own newspapers.

That isn't the case as the law says otherwise.

georgesstreet wrote: »

I think american law is often an ass, but have no opinion as to whether the UK should follow the US example. My experience is the UK press is more diverse, more interesting and more representative than the US press, but am also aware that the press ( as in newspapers) days are numbered, knowing that no one under 35 has ever bought a newspaper, so what happens with the printed media is less and less relevant.

Leaving aside the US issue (although my experience is they cover local/state issues better than many of their European counterparts), any assessment of the UK press has to take the findings of the Leeveson report into account in which he found examples of clear fabrication of EU related stories by the UK media. That isn't a minor issue because that is a crossing of the line between reporting (the news) and propaganda production. The latter has no place in anything called a newspaper.

SoulandForm

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

Hi evryone. I am Phoenix One UK, and I am an anti EU activist in UK. Please note the anti EU as opposed to anti Europe. The two are far from same thing.

Exactly-I want Northern Ireland to leave the UK. That doesnt make me anti-British though (well politically maybe but not in any deep over all sense).

Phoenix One UK

SoulandForm wrote: »

Exactly-I want Northern Ireland to leave the UK. That doesnt make me anti-British though (well politically maybe but not in any deep over all sense).

I can accept and respect that. Same with Scotland, and I keep out of that one. It is a matter for Scottish people to decide.

SoulandForm

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

I can accept and respect that. Same with Scotland, and I keep out of that one. It is a matter for Scottish people to decide.

If however the UK leaves the EU and the 26 counties stays in I will become a Unionist though. The EU project is a threat to everybody in Europe and possibly beyond; for instance the whole shunning of Russia while trying to seduce the countries around her in bodes very dangerously for the future.

Phoenix One UK

SoulandForm wrote: »

If however the UK leaves the EU and the 26 counties stays in I will become a Unionist though. The EU project is a threat to everybody in Europe and possibly beyond; for instance the whole shunning of Russia while trying to seduce the countries around her in bodes very dangerously for the future.

It is a position many in UK share. Trade with Europe is one thing. Political rule from an organistion like EU is something else entirely.

Every member state in EU are also members of WTO, and I fail to see why we need to have the EU make trade agreements on our behalf given we have traded for centuries with those same member states long before there was even a Common Market.

Note even Greece is member of WTO in its own right.

Phoenix One UK

Please note following I posted within another forum that I blieve relevant to debate here, of which I am the auther.


Let us recap and expand on what cannot be disputed.

1. The EU is a Custom Union, as European Commission’s own web site clearly states.
2. The EU is a single customs union with a single trade policy and tariff.
3. The EU comprises of 28 members, including UK.
4. There are over 200 countries in the world.
5. Tariffs are usually applied to imports with world not exports.
6. Where imports exceed exports for any country then that country has a trade deficit.
7. The UK has always had a trade deficit with EU since joining the Common Market in 1973.
8. Most goods originate from world not EU.

Before continuing, I should mention that I once operated my own business in Australia as managing director of Soft-Talk, and to quote Paul Turtan of ABC radio, “Soft-Talk is in a league of its own”. Further, Soft-Talk also achieved acquiring one of the best customer reputations in entire country, and exported its products on world stage. Further, it achieved selling over 100,000 floppy diskettes packed with software in just one quarter at a time when Australia was in its worst recession in recorded history. Note software then was tax except, and computer hardware dealers were also using Soft-Talk’s product as bundle. Why? Software was tax except, but hardware was not. Hence, the dealers added the software product to reduce hardware prices. This resulted in reduction of tax, which made the hardware cheaper for consumers. Further, Soft-Talk WAS the competition. Nobody could compete. Not even Tandy who were big in Australia. Any business must strive to compete within any competitive market. If they cannot compete then they will likely fail.

It is clear that some here still do not understand or are so fanatical with EU that they want to bury the truth, assuming they are not ignorant on issue (note ignorance is not an insult. Everyone is ignorant on number of issues until educated otherwise).

Let me further simplify the issue. Most goods in EU are imported from world. The world includes countries like USA, China, India, and Japan to name but a few. Most were not made in EU, or only partly made in EU. This is a very important point to grasp.

A product imported from world to France (for example) incurs an import tariff. The tariff is paid, and the product is then moved and sold elsewhere in EU with costs passed to consumer, including the tariff paid. People buying the product in UK pay no direct tariff because the tariff had already been paid in France (for example) and added to end price. People paid a tariff on import whether they knew it or not. Being invisible does not change tariff charges were added to prices consumers pay. Just because people do not see it does not mean it does not exists. It is legal under EU law, and it could be argued quite rightly that the EU itself is restricting trade with its single trade policy and tariff.

Note the line “The EU is a single customs union with a single trade policy and tariff” was acquired directly from European Commission web site.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 14:49:07 by Phoenix One UK »

SoulandForm

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

It is a position many in UK share. Trade with Europe is one thing. Political rule from an organistion like EU is something else entirely.

Every member state in EU are also members of WTO, and I fail to see why we need to have the EU make trade agreements on our behalf given we have traded for centuries with those same member states long before there was even a Common Market.

Note even Greece is member of WTO in its own right.

Historically the UK mainland has had a much better record on civil liberties than other European countries though this has been under attack starting with Thatcher and if anything excellerating under Blair- continued membership of the EU would see that noble tradition totally crumble with the introduction of ID cards, abolition of innocent until proven guilty, etc. Some things are a lot more valuable than money.

I do think, or at least strongly hope, that the UK will be politely asked to leave in the near future. Its southern Ireland that Im much more worried about- though the UK leaving could well make the elite here rethink their dangerous course.

Phoenix One UK

SoulandForm wrote: »

Historically the UK mainland has had a much better record on civil liberties than other European countries though this has been under attack starting with Thatcher and if anything excellerating under Blair- continued membership of the EU would see that noble tradition totally crumble with the introduction of ID cards, abolition of innocent until proven guilty, etc. Some things are a lot more valuable than money.

I do think, or at least strongly hope, that the UK will be politely asked to leave in the near future. Its southern Ireland that Im much more worried about- though the UK leaving could well make the elite here rethink their dangerous course.

You raise a number of issues here, and I cannot comment on ireland for number of reasons, the most obvious being, the future and direction of Ireland is matter for Irish people to decide.

What attracted me to this site was mention of the push by British people to have an in/out referendum on UK EU membership. Something I, for one, have been fighting for since 1997. Others have faught longer than that.

Phoenix One UK

Debunking the Troika's 'success' in Ireland

22.11.13 @ 09:20

...

Pension funds were raided, welfare benefits cut back, hospitals closed, while the country's debt rose to 123 percent of GDP, four times higher than before the banks were bailed out

---

The above was aquired and extracted from EUoObservor.com. For entire article just copy the headline in Google or other search engine.

I believe it goes off topic a bit, but I believe it does raise some points that Ireland should consider. Is Ireland realy better off in EZ?

I know Greece would be better off defaulting and reverting back to ts original currency.

SoulandForm

One thing that a lot of people in southern Ireland dont realize is that opposition the EU is not necessarily a right wing thing within the UK. It was "Old Labour" which opposed entry into the Common Market and it was only with the Blairite take over of Labour that its strong "Euro-Skeptic" wing was neutered. NO2EU was a recent enough Leftist electoral alliance. In Northern Ireland where Im from both the TUV and the IRSP and Eirigi are withdrawalists.

micosoft

SoulandForm wrote: »

Historically the UK mainland has had a much better record on civil liberties than other European countries though this has been under attack starting with Thatcher and if anything excellerating under Blair- continued membership of the EU would see that noble tradition totally crumble with the introduction of ID cards, abolition of innocent until proven guilty, etc. Some things are a lot more valuable than money.

I do think, or at least strongly hope, that the UK will be politely asked to leave in the near future. Its southern Ireland that Im much more worried about- though the UK leaving could well make the elite here rethink their dangerous course.

Says who? I am fascinated about the number of British citizens who claim this but when asked about even the most basic, trivial questions about European continental history in the last 50 years you get silence or bluster. SOME European countries have a worse record then England but MANY countries have a better record. The Nordics, Switzerland, Germany and other states had excellent post WW2 civil rights. I also see you nicely sidestepped civil rights in Northern Ireland by restricting your comment to the island of Great Britain - one of the most significant civil rights movements in the West over the past 50 years was based in Northern Ireland. And the failure of the British Government to address this arguably ignited the conflict up there.

Don't get me wrong - the UK for some things such as Press Freedom, was a bastion of freedom but you really have to have a more open mind then lumping together the Euros as some sort of homogeneous group that looks vaguely French or German and not at all free like blighty.

And all of the initiatives you mention in the last sentence have NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH EUROPE AND ARE ENTIRELY BRITISH PARLIAMENT INITIATIVES. ID CARDS, Changes to arrest protocols and evidence ETC. It's honestly tiresome hearing the same "drop in an untruth in the last sentence and see if people accept it". It's British legislation by British legislators for British people. Nothing at all to do with the EU.

Phoenix One UK

SoulandForm wrote: »

One thing that a lot of people in southern Ireland dont realize is that opposition the EU is not necessarily a right wing thing within the UK. It was "Old Labour" which opposed entry into the Common Market and it was only with the Blairite take over of Labour that its strong "Euro-Skeptic" wing was neutered. NO2EU was a recent enough Leftist electoral alliance. In Northern Ireland where Im from both the TUV and the IRSP and Eirigi are withdrawalists.

I recall the second Irish referendum on Lisbon treaty, and I did assist where possible in supplying as much information as I could that was in turn added to information some NO campaigners were handing out. I also know the NO campaign did not get equal air time, and that a number of multi-national corporations put their weight behind the YES campaign.

I recall NO2EU, and quoted from them on some occations here in UK. Right now it is Farage and UKIP that are attracting headlines not to mention being hot favourites to win more seats than LibLabCon trio at coming EU election. They are also already being tipped to win at least 15 seats at next GE in 2015. Have to wait and see if the polls hold true, as in politics even a week is a long time.

The biggest issue at present is immigration. This puts Cameron in a very difficult position, as the EU open border policy is a fundamental part of EU membership.

SoulandForm

micosoft wrote: »

Says who? I am fascinated about the number of British citizens who claim this but when asked about even the most basic, trivial questions about European continental history in the last 50 years you get silence or bluster. SOME European countries have a worse record then England but MANY countries have a better record. The Nordics, Switzerland, Germany and other states had excellent post WW2 civil rights. I also see you nicely sidestepped civil rights in Northern Ireland by restricting your comment to the island of Great Britain - one of the most significant civil rights movements in the West over the past 50 years was based in Northern Ireland. And the failure of the British Government to address this arguably ignited the conflict up there.

I said mainland UK-I very well aware that Northern Ireland has been a civil liberties disaster zone since its inception which is part of the reason I support its withdrawal from the UK.

You mentioned Germany having a better civil liberties record? How than do you explain the fact that the Communist Party was illegal in in western half for most of its history, the murder of Ulrike Meinhof and those with her, the tough political censorship or both the left and the right, etc if Germany had such a good record on civil liberties? While the eastern half of Germany has a good record on social justice and religious freedom it was hardly a shining example of civil liberties either.

Than we could talk about the nordic countries and their unconsented sterilizations.....

SoulandForm

I will probably vote for UKIP in the European elections (my vote is in Northern Ireland) though I wouldnt give them my first preference. However there is no way that I could vote for them in a Stormount given the sectarian rabble rousing they have been involved in- they could have easily picked up conservative Roman Catholics but instead they choose to beat the Orange drum so I do admit some hostility to them.

Mass immigration has been used in England in order on side undermine its Christian hertitage and on the other to divide the working class; neither of things I see as good. EU membership has had massive effects on southern Ireland not least of which has been mass immigration; luckily their have been no growth of groups like the BNP, but the sinister intent to divide people on the basis of "culture" will show sooner or later.

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

I recall the second Irish referendum on Lisbon treaty, and I did assist where possible in supplying as much information as I could that was in turn added to information some NO campaigners were handing out. I also know the NO campaign did not get equal air time, and that a number of multi-national corporations put their weight behind the YES campaign.

I recall NO2EU, and quoted from them on some occations here in UK. Right now it is Farage and UKIP that are attracting headlines not to mention being hot favourites to win more seats than LibLabCon trio at coming EU election. They are also already being tipped to win at least 15 seats at next GE in 2015. Have to wait and see if the polls hold true, as in politics even a week is a long time.

The biggest issue at present is immigration. This puts Cameron in a very difficult position, as the EU open border policy is a fundamental part of EU membership.

SoulandForm

There are masses of things I disagree with Sean Gabb, for instance Im a Socialist and a Pan-Celticist while he is a British Unionist and a Libertarian but what he says here is incredibly insightful of what has happened to the UK in no small part through EU membership.

Phoenix One UK

SoulandForm wrote: »

I will probably vote for UKIP in the European elections (my vote is in Northern Ireland) though I wouldnt give them my first preference. However there is no way that I could vote for them in a Stormount given the sectarian rabble rousing they have been involved in- they could have easily picked up conservative Roman Catholics but instead they choose to beat the Orange drum so I do admit some hostility to them.

Mass immigration has been used in England in order on side undermine its Christian hertitage and on the other to divide the working class; neither of things I see as good. EU membership has had massive effects on southern Ireland not least of which has been mass immigration; luckily their have been no growth of groups like the BNP, but the sinister intent to divide people on the basis of "culture" will show sooner or later.

It has always been my position that people should vote for who best represents their views. To do otherwise would be a wasted vote.

There was a publication entitled "The folly of Mass Immigration", which is freely available in PDF format on web and well worth a read.

Note following from The Times dated 22 Nov 2013

Cheap labour in France ‘fuels far-right support’

David Chazan Paris

Unquote.

The introduction of mass immigration and people across borders is insane. Public services cannot cope with such, and not just here in UK.

Have to go. Nice chatting with you. regards.

micosoft

SoulandForm wrote: »

I said mainland UK-I very well aware that Northern Ireland has been a civil liberties disaster zone since its inception which is part of the reason I support its withdrawal from the UK.

That seems to be a bit of a curates egg there. UK is great except for....

SoulandForm wrote: »

You mentioned Germany having a better civil liberties record? How than do you explain the fact that the Communist Party was illegal in in western half for most of its history,

The Communist Party wanted to end democracy and merge with East Germany. The Nazi party was also banned.... is that an affront to civil rights too?

SoulandForm wrote: »

the murder of Ulrike Meinhof and those with her, the tough political censorship or both the left and the right, etc if Germany had such a good record on civil liberties? While the eastern half of Germany has a good record on social justice and religious freedom it was hardly a shining example of civil liberties either.

She committed suicide. I was not talking about East Germany which was clearly a police state.

SoulandForm wrote: »

Than we could talk about the nordic countries and their unconsented sterilizations.....

Sweden. Not Norway or Finland or Denmark or Iceland.

I think we could go on and on about individual cases in different countries. I am stating that the UK was not the shining light for human rights you have made it out to be with Europe in the Dark Ages. Include NI and the UK has one of the worse records for a western democracy. As I stated before - some aspects such as the free press (even including the ban on SF and the Spycatcher affair) was and is excellent. But the UK is not the exemplar of freedom you believe. Freedom of information for example is something the UK came to very late and Sweden led.

And my fundamental point is that Europe is not encroaching on your freedom. Your own government is.

SoulandForm

micosoft wrote: »

That seems to be a bit of a curates egg there. UK is great except for....


The Communist Party wanted to end democracy and merge with East Germany. The Nazi party was also banned.... is that an affront to civil rights too?


She committed suicide. I was not talking about East Germany which was clearly a police state.

Yes of course the Nazi Party and not only that but the Swaztika itself and historical discussion of the holocaust are an affront to civil liberties.

The Communist Party did not want to abolish "democracy"- look at its program from the time.

Are you really so sure she and those with her committed suicide? Thats like saying Gerry Adams was never in the IRA or British intelligence were not involved in the Dublin bombing.

View

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

Please note following I posted within another forum that I blieve relevant to debate here, of which I am the auther.


Let us recap and expand on what cannot be disputed.

.....


7. The UK has always had a trade deficit with EU since joining the Common Market in 1973.
8. Most goods originate from world not EU.

Your point 7 is wrong and misleading as well. According to UK statistics going back to 1946 the UK has almost always had trade deficits, so it is little to do with the UK's EU membership. Second, they show the UK having had trade surpluses (in goods & services) in 13 years since the UK joined the EU (3 years if we exclude services).

As for point 8 it is unclear what you are referring to but the figures show that for trade in goods, the EU has consistently accounted for 50-55% of the UK's imports over the decades.

To set it in context a bit, the PIGS EU member states are more important to the UK than the BRIC countries, for all the sneering at the former and hyping of the latter.

Banjoxed

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

---

The above was aquired and extracted from EUoObservor.com. For entire article just copy the headline in Google or other search engine.

I believe it goes off topic a bit, but I believe it does raise some points that Ireland should consider. Is Ireland realy better off in EZ?

I know Greece would be better off defaulting and reverting back to ts original currency.

Reverting to a wholly independent Irish Pound would equal toilet currency time. A few carpetbaggers would do okay while the rest of us would be fecked. I'd turn my Euros into Sterling if I got wind of that particular disaster happening.

Phoenix One UK

View wrote: »

Your point 7 is wrong and misleading as well. According to UK statistics going back to 1946 the UK has almost always had trade deficits, so it is little to do with the UK's EU membership. Second, they show the UK having had trade surpluses (in goods & services) in 13 years since the UK joined the EU (3 years if we exclude services).

As for point 8 it is unclear what you are referring to but the figures show that for trade in goods, the EU has consistently accounted for 50-55% of the UK's imports over the decades.

To set it in context a bit, the PIGS EU member states are more important to the UK than the BRIC countries, for all the sneering at the former and hyping of the latter.

The point was made within another forum that I am a member, and have been for some years, and it was a point I supportted with direct link to Parliament records itself. Hence. I must disagree with you.

Phoenix One UK

Banjoxed wrote: »

Reverting to a wholly independent Irish Pound would equal toilet currency time. A few carpetbaggers would do okay while the rest of us would be fecked. I'd turn my Euros into Sterling if I got wind of that particular disaster happening.

Putting Ireland aside, I will refer Greece. The only winning move it has ever had was to ditch the euro and default. It certainly could not be any worst that what they are currently going through, and countries have defaullted and recovered by doing exactly that, which includes even the UK. As it stands Greece is in limbo, and have few assets left to sell.

There is no way Greece can ever pay back the bailout. Anyone that says otherwise is deluding themselves.

View

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

The point was made within another forum that I am a member, and have been for some years, and it was a point I supportted with direct link to Parliament records itself. Hence. I must disagree with you.

I am using records from the House of Commons itself.

The relevant stats you can find as follows:
Trade in Goods & Services Table 3 P13&14
Trade in Goods Table 1 P11
Trade in Goods with EU P19 last columns
Points about PIGS Vs BRICs P7 bullet points 5&6

Here's the link: http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN06211

It would appear your disagreement is with the House of Commons' figures not me.

View

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

It certainly could not be any worst that what they are currently going through,

It almost certainly would have been worse for them since a default would have meant their cutbacks would have been worse than what they have had. There is a fundamental difference between the government providing, let's say, a worse education system and providing none at all as they are forced to balance their books overnight after a default.

dlouth15

View wrote: »

It almost certainly would have been worse for them since a default would have meant their cutbacks would have been worse than what they have had. There is a fundamental difference between the government providing, let's say, a worse education system and providing none at all as they are forced to balance their books overnight after a default.

They are likely to return a primary budget surplus this year. They had a small primary deficit of about 1% last year.

Phoenix One UK

View wrote: »

I am using records from the House of Commons itself.

The relevant stats you can find as follows:
Trade in Goods & Services Table 3 P13&14
Trade in Goods Table 1 P11
Trade in Goods with EU P19 last columns
Points about PIGS Vs BRICs P7 bullet points 5&6

Here's the link: http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN06211

It would appear your disagreement is with the House of Commons' figures not me.

On the contrary. Your link fails to factor in exports to, say, Ireland. Ireland had even been quoted as being one of Britain's largest export market from a few europhiles, which was one reason leading me to write my own article.

I too was once an exporter (software) while resident in Australia. I would send products to China via India. But that is not how the statistics would show it. To simplify, when comparing the population of Britain against Ireland, I trust you do not consider ireland to be Britain's largest export market? It was just a shipping point for many exports.

Phoenix One UK

View wrote: »

It almost certainly would have been worse for them since a default would have meant their cutbacks would have been worse than what they have had. There is a fundamental difference between the government providing, let's say, a worse education system and providing none at all as they are forced to balance their books overnight after a default.

Have you seriously been keeping up to date with events in Greece? Families are even giving up their children because they cannot feed them. Then compare that to say Iceland. They went bust too, and defaulted. Look at them now.

ewan whose army

SoulandForm wrote: »

One thing that a lot of people in southern Ireland dont realize is that opposition the EU is not necessarily a right wing thing within the UK. It was "Old Labour" which opposed entry into the Common Market and it was only with the Blairite take over of Labour that its strong "Euro-Skeptic" wing was neutered. NO2EU was a recent enough Leftist electoral alliance. In Northern Ireland where Im from both the TUV and the IRSP and Eirigi are withdrawalists.

After UKIP the biggest group against the UK "NO 2 EU" are left wing socialists. Its to the point where the original founder of UKIP horrified at how his party was hijacked by the right created a left wing party in the old labour vain.

Scofflaw

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

On the contrary. Your link fails to factor in exports to, say, Ireland. Ireland had even been quoted as being one of Britain's largest export market from a few europhiles, which was one reason leading me to write my own article.

I too was once an exporter (software) while resident in Australia. I would send products to China via India. But that is not how the statistics would show it. To simplify, when comparing the population of Britain against Ireland, I trust you do not consider ireland to be Britain's largest export market? It was just a shipping point for many exports.

How is Ireland a 'shipping port for many exports'? It applies to Belgium (although the difference is moot because Belgium would be the port of entry for much of the Continent), but what UK products are supposed to be shipped via Ireland, and to where? And, most cogently perhaps, why?

cordially,
Scofflaw

dlouth15

Scofflaw wrote: »

How is Ireland a 'shipping port for many exports'? It applies to Belgium (although the difference is moot because Belgium would be the port of entry for much of the Continent), but what UK products are supposed to be shipped via Ireland, and to where? And, most cogently perhaps, why?

cordially,

Scofflaw

Sorry to but in here but I'm not sure he's talking about a physical "port" like that in Antwerp. He doesn't use that word in his post but rather "point".

ewan whose army

Just a side point, a lot of people are getting riled up about this from outside the UK.

Fact of the matter its up for the UK citizens to decide, if they ever vote to pull out then the EU has to honour it, even it does will it really effect Ireland and other countries?

The biggest effected countries will be the ones in East Europe I guess

georgesstreet

ewan whose army wrote: »

Fact of the matter its up for the UK citizens to decide, if they ever vote to pull out then the EU has to honour it, even it does will it really effect Ireland and other countries?

Surely the standard procedure in the past has been to "respect the vote and democracy", and then force them to vote again until they vote the correct way?

I agree it is curious how Irish people seem to get very heated about the UK and have such strong opinions.

oscarBravo

georgesstreet wrote: »

Surely the standard procedure in the past has been to "respect the vote and democracy", and then force them to vote again until they vote the correct way?

I'm not aware of anyone being forced to vote at all, never mind being forced to vote again.

ewan whose army

georgesstreet wrote: »

Surely the standard procedure in the past has been to "respect the vote and democracy", and then force them to vote again until they vote the correct way?

I agree it is curious how Irish people seem to get very heated about the UK and have such strong opinions.

Well I am a UK citizen and yes if there is a referendum I will vote at the embassy as an expat, but I will vote to remain in.

My point is that all this scaremongering from places like France, Germany and Ireland over a UK pull out is just going to make people like UKIP look better when they can spin it as foreigners messing with K democracy.

Its likely the UK will vote to remain in IMO, but I don't think an approach similar to the Irish Lisbon referendum will be the right reaction. I mean it was voted out in a referendum that should have been the end of it, you can't go and force another referendum to get the opinion you want. One of the reasons why there is an anti-EU sentiment was due to the fact Lisbon was pushed through without any public consultation, opinion polls showed it would have been rejected and two EU countries rejecting would force them to re-do it and probably made the EU better than it is now.

When people say the EU is anti-democratic I can understand thats where they are coming from. Not saying I agree but I understand the argument, it is valid.

oscarBravo

ewan whose army wrote: »

My point is that all this scaremongering from places like France, Germany and Ireland over a UK pull out is just going to make people like UKIP look better when they can spin it as foreigners messing with K democracy.

Because it's not like UKIP ever expressed an opinion on a referendum campaign in another member state.

I mean it was voted out in a referendum that should have been the end of it, you can't go and force another referendum to get the opinion you want.

Again with the talk of forcing referendums. Who forced anyone to hold a referendum, never mind forcing anyone to vote in one?

georgesstreet

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not aware of anyone being forced to vote at all, never mind being forced to vote again.

Nor am I.

georgesstreet

ewan whose army wrote: »

Its likely the UK will vote to remain in IMO, but I don't think an approach similar to the Irish Lisbon referendum will be the right reaction. I mean it was voted out in a referendum that should have been the end of it, you can't go and force another referendum to get the opinion you want. .

Of course, you can and did, as history shows us. I don't believe it would be possible to do that if the UK referendum were to vote to exit the EU, as to do so might be the trigger for civil unrest as feelings run very high on the issue in the UK.

In fact, there are few countries so passive as Ireland who tolerated that in the past, and to attempt to rerun a referendum because it came up with the "wrong" answer in France, or Italy, or Greece would lead to riots and civil unrest. Why Ireland was so passive remains an enduring mystery.

oscarBravo

georgesstreet wrote: »

Of course, you can and did, as history shows us.

Who forced a referendum?

georgesstreet

oscarBravo wrote: »

Who forced a referendum?

Presumably your point is that the Irish government was under no pressure whatever from the EU or anyone else. As you don't say it's hard to know,and if that is your view, then its a valid view.

I am not sure many would agree with that if it is your view, but its a valid view nonetheless.

oscarBravo

georgesstreet wrote: »

Presumably your point is that the Irish government was under no pressure whatever from the EU or anyone else. As you don't say it's hard to know,and if that is your view, then its a valid view.

I am not sure many would agree with that if it is your view, but its a valid view nonetheless.

Waffle waffle waffle.

If you're going to claim - which you have - that Ireland was forced to hold a referendum, be so good as to adduce some evidence for that claim. If you're going to witter on about it being your "view" that Ireland was forced to hold a referendum, spare me.

Scofflaw

dlouth15 wrote: »

Scofflaw wrote:

How is Ireland a 'shipping port for many exports'? It applies to Belgium (although the difference is moot because Belgium would be the port of entry for much of the Continent), but what UK products are supposed to be shipped via Ireland, and to where? And, most cogently perhaps, why?

Sorry to but in here but I'm not sure he's talking about a physical "port" like that in Antwerp. He doesn't use that word in his post but rather "point".

Thanks for the comment - but, to clarify, whether he's referring to 'port' or 'point' makes no difference to my puzzlement, I'm afraid! Perhaps deepens it, if anything. These are the top 5 UK exports to Ireland:

• Mineral fuels, oils, distillation products, etc – £3.1/3.6 billion
  
• Electrical, electronic equipment – £1.2/€1.4 billion
  
• Boilers, machinery, etc – £1.14/€1.3 billion
  
• Pharmaceutical products – £834/€967 million
  
• Plastics and articles thereof – £609/€710 million[3]

What are the mysterious goods or services for which Ireland is merely a 'transhipment point'?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

georgesstreet wrote: »

Presumably your point is that the Irish government was under no pressure whatever from the EU or anyone else. As you don't say it's hard to know,and if that is your view, then its a valid view.

I am not sure many would agree with that if it is your view, but its a valid view nonetheless.

I think you're beginning to rather noticeably overuse the concept of "views", as if every view was of equal validity. It begins to look as if you're avoiding defending your own assertions by repeating the mantra "well, that's just my view", while dismissing other people's assertions with the mantra "well, that's just your view".

While, clearly, every political opinion is, at the end of the day, an opinion, the expectation of the forum is that you are offering informed opinion, and that you are therefore able to demonstrate and defend the basis for it - and equally, that you are able to elicit and attack the basis for opinions you disagree with.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Faz6r

germany thinks of itself as the uncle of europe, and i guess its just the british way of being opposite to the germans by being anti europe

georgesstreet

Scofflaw wrote: »

I think you're beginning to rather noticeably overuse the concept of "views", as if every view was of equal validity. It begins to look as if you're avoiding defending your own assertions by repeating the mantra "well, that's just my view", while dismissing other people's assertions with the mantra "well, that's just your view".

While, clearly, every political opinion is, at the end of the day, an opinion, the expectation of the forum is that you are offering informed opinion, and that you are therefore able to demonstrate and defend the basis for it - and equally, that you are able to elicit and attack the basis for opinions you disagree with.

moderately,
Scofflaw

I don't think anyone would argue that all views have equal validity. that would be absurd. In context, for example, to make a claim that Ireland was under no pressure, either overt or covert, from the EU, and that the EU just sat on their hands and looked benignly on, seems a naive view, but of course no one can come up with actual evidence one way or the other.

For me, the opinions of others are a matter for themselves and I would never ask someone to defend their sincerely held opinions, no matter how wrong I might them them. I might try to poke a hole here or there, but never ask or expect someone to defend their opinion.

For example, I think god is bogus, but I also have no quarrel with anyone who holds any opinions to the contrary, or who finds salvation in whatever form the choose to find it. It would be impertinent and wrong of me to ask them to defend their opinions.

oscarBravo

georgesstreet wrote: »

In context, for example, to make a claim that Ireland was under no pressure, either overt or covert, from the EU, and that the EU just sat on their hands and looked benignly on, seems a naive view, but of course no one can come up with actual evidence one way or the other.

I didn't claim anything. You claimed that Ireland was forced to hold a referendum.

If you're now admitting that there's no evidence for this claim, fair enough - but that's basically argument by making stuff up.

Scofflaw

georgesstreet wrote: »

I don't think anyone would argue that all views have equal validity. that would be absurd. In context, for example, to make a claim that Ireland was under no pressure, either overt or covert, from the EU, and that the EU just sat on their hands and looked benignly on, seems a naive view, but of course no one can come up with actual evidence one way or the other.

For me, the opinions of others are a matter for themselves and I would never ask someone to defend their sincerely held opinions, no matter how wrong I might them them. I might try to poke a hole here or there, but never ask or expect someone to defend their opinion.

For example, I think god is bogus, but I also have no quarrel with anyone who holds any opinions to the contrary, or who finds salvation in whatever form the choose to find it. It would be impertinent and wrong of me to ask them to defend their opinions.

Two points. The first is that you've been here long enough to read the Charter, and should know that you don't comment on moderation on thread. Hence the yellow card.

The second is that you are being formally warned not to cite completely unsubstantiated opinion as if it were of any value, because that is what you're doing. You have been given plenty of leeway in this, and all you've done with it is run out more rope.

If you're going to make claims, back them up or drop them when challenged, or attract penalties. Your choice.

moderately,
Scofflaw

dlouth15

Scofflaw wrote: »

Thanks for the comment - but, to clarify, whether he's referring to 'port' or 'point' makes no difference to my puzzlement, I'm afraid! Perhaps deepens it, if anything. These are the top 5 UK exports to Ireland:

• Mineral fuels, oils, distillation products, etc – £3.1/3.6 billion
• Electrical, electronic equipment – £1.2/€1.4 billion
• Boilers, machinery, etc – £1.14/€1.3 billion
• Pharmaceutical products – £834/€967 million
• Plastics and articles thereof – £609/€710 million[3]

What are the mysterious goods or services for which Ireland is merely a 'transhipment point'?

cordially,
Scofflaw

No mention of services in that list. I believe something of the order of 6 billion stg services are exported from the UK to Ireland. Total exports - goods and services - are around 13 to 14 billion. I'm reluctant to get involved in this argument as it has been initiated byu someone else but I suspect that in services (as well as some of the items on your list) is where you would find exports to Ireland inflated as they are re-exported to the true destination country.

Scofflaw

dlouth15 wrote: »

No mention of services in that list. I believe something of the order of 6 billion stg services are exported from the UK to Ireland. Total exports - goods and services - are around 13 to 14 billion. I'm reluctant to get involved in this argument as it has been initiated byu someone else but I suspect that in services (as well as some of the items on your list) is where you would find exports to Ireland inflated as they are re-exported to the true destination country.

I'd be interested to see some evidence to back up the suggestion. I appreciate you didn't make it, but I find it interesting that people make this sort of claim without apparently having evidence to hand. Where do they get the claim from to start off with, and why do they believe it apparently without evidence?

You yourself seem to favour the idea, but why? No evidence has been presented, you don't seem to be offering any yourself, so what makes you think there's any truth at all in it?

And is the claim supposed to apply, for example, to something like computer software written in the UK and localised here (last time I looked we did a bit of this)? How is that different from any other process of importing 'raw materials' and exporting a product that has been changed in some way? And while I know that there are UK banks in the IFSC, as far as I know the input from the UK to Ireland there is considered as FDI, not imports.

It just seems odd to me that people repeat these things without knowing whether they've got any truth to them.

cordially,
Scofflaw

SpaceTime

Scofflaw wrote: »

Thanks for the comment - but, to clarify, whether he's referring to 'port' or 'point' makes no difference to my puzzlement, I'm afraid! Perhaps deepens it, if anything. These are the top 5 UK exports to Ireland:

• Mineral fuels, oils, distillation products, etc – £3.1/3.6 billion
  
• Electrical, electronic equipment – £1.2/€1.4 billion
  
• Boilers, machinery, etc – £1.14/€1.3 billion
  
• Pharmaceutical products – £834/€967 million
  
• Plastics and articles thereof – £609/€710 million[3]

What are the mysterious goods or services for which Ireland is merely a 'transhipment point'?

cordially,
Scofflaw

I'd point out in a lot of those cases the UK is a transshipment point.

With things like electronics and many consumer and industrial products Ireland is treated as an adjunct to the UK market because of language and technical similarities eg we need appliances with English labeling and British plugs pre-fitted.

Also for marketing and distribution purposes it makes sense to a lot of companies as the same retail chains operate and the same advertising campaigns etc

So, in may cases these exports are actually things like Chinese manufactured, American or Japanese owned electronics, German industrial equipment, Italian and Chinese white goods etc etc

You'd really have to drill down a lot more deeply to figure out what's actually a UK to IRL export and what's just using the UK as a distribution hub / transshipment point.

A very significant % of Irish imports go via the UK

I actually think we could benefit from looking towards other supply routes as often it's ending up with goods manufactured in the Eurozone ending up being sold to us in Stg£ because of transshipment via the UK distribution network.

Irish retailers could probably do a lot to stabilise their prices by removing currency fluctuations and dealing with Eurozone distribution directly.

It's also a reason to avoid using unusual UK standards that end up being technical barriers. The British plug being a good example of this. If we used 'CEE 7' plugs like Germany, France and everyone else in the EU, EEA and fomer USSR countries we could access a hell of a lot more distributors without having to get special orders for for all sorts of consumer and business electrical and electronics.