General Star Trek thread

Inviere

Inviere wrote: »

Staying behind risks incapacitation and being unable to destroy the array. Loading the Tricobalt onto the shuttle hoping it can evade the Kazon ships that were attacking would also be a big gamble, not one Picard would have made, there was too much at stake.

They were going to leave devices behind anyway, risking someone getting to them.


A deadman switch would have had just as much risk

IvySlayer

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I'll watch that one soon. Janeway being bullheaded to the point of lunacy/stupidity was a definite theme in the show. Most of her solutions involved brute forcing a solution rather than thinking it through, like running through fire to get third degree burns which were magic'd away by the Doctor or flying Voyager through a binary star to get rid of the alien scientists. Her borg deal is another instance. And yet she gets promoted to admiralty for managing to get her crew stranded in the Delta quadrant.

Janeway isn't my favorite Captain but I will defend her actions on these 2 occasions. The scientists on Voyager messed with her dopamine levels and she was severely sleep-deprived. They also just executed a member of her crew.

On Scorpion Part 2, she and Chakotay anticipated the Borg would betray them eventually which is why she fooled Seven into thinking she relieved Chakotay of duty when in fact he was ready in the cargobay with the Borg tech to stop her. This was at a time when she was facing 8472 who wanted to kill every being in the galaxy. She was choosing the lesser of 2 evils in her mind.

Some of her questionable actions

Killing Tuvix
The eqiunox, relieving Chakotay, trying to torture a prisoner and threatening to relieve Tuvok for questioning it.
Allowing Neelix to remain on board
Giving the Hirogen holographic technology. How many hirogen died due to that?
Future Janeway going back in time messing with the past

If Janeway was on a ship that was falling apart and her crew ready to rip each others throat out her character would make a lot more sense, but she always has a clean uniform and ship running smoothly.

Year of Hell Captain Janeway was kick-ass and we loved that

AMKC

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I'll watch that one soon. Janeway being bullheaded to the point of lunacy/stupidity was a definite theme in the show. Most of her solutions involved brute forcing a solution rather than thinking it through, like running through fire to get third degree burns which were magic'd away by the Doctor or flying Voyager through a binary star to get rid of the alien scientists. Her borg deal is another instance. And yet she gets promoted to admiralty for managing to get her crew stranded in the Delta quadrant.

So how would you have dealt with them two points you point out then?
As a poster above said she had been experimented on with drugs by aliens and sleep deprived
As for the time she got the third degree burns Voyager was falling apart and there was no other way to get to whee she need o get except through the fire. Besides its the smoke in the lungs that would be worse and the Doctor did give out to her.

I bet you had no problem when she was running around Voyager looking like Lara-Croft fighting the giant macro-virus.

Rawr wrote: »

I was think similar last week. I was rewatching Scorpion, and she was being a bit of a bull-headed tyrant in that one.

Chakotay: These Borg are up to something Captain. We should dump them on the next world with the weapon tech and just try our luck getting out of Borg Space.

Janeway: No! My deal with the Borg was perfect. They double pinky-sweared that they wouldn't assimilate us the very second they got everything they needed. They then said that we could "trust" them, while a nearby drone did air-quotes.

Chakotay: Captain! They're Borg, they'll totally assimilate us when they get everything they want! This is their ENTIRE deal!

Janeway: No! Follow my deal with them. *Especially* if I end up in a coma. The Borg *will not* betray us.

Later....the Borg betray them.....

Strange I remember that dialogue differently.

Rawr

AMKC wrote: »

So how would you have dealt with them two points you point out then?
As a poster above said she had been experimented on with drugs by aliens and sleep deprived
As for the time she got the third degree burns Voyager was falling apart and there was no other way to get to whee she need o get except through the fire. Besides its the smoke in the lungs that would be worse and the Doctor did give out to her.

I bet you had no problem when she was running around Voyager looking like Lara-Croft fighting the giant macro-virus.



Strange I remember that dialogue differently.

I paraphrased more than a little

Inviere

Just to derail the narrative a little further...

IvySlayer wrote: »

Some of her questionable actions

Killing Tuvix

I'd no issue with that decision. Tuvok & Neelix were not dead, there was a chance to save them, she saved them. Tuvix was a selfish ass by wanting to live at the cost of two others, and neither Tuvok OR Neelix would have been that selfish, both had an admirable sense of duty. An interesting moral dilemma to explore, but in the context of being lost in the Delta Quadrant, alone, with morale & the running of the ship to keep the crew alive, I believe it was the right call.

The eqiunox, relieving Chakotay, trying to torture a prisoner and threatening to relieve Tuvok for questioning it.

I suppose I'd explain that by Janeway looking at Ransom, and how she done things the right way, the hard way...and Ransom just abandoned everything the Fed stood for and was harvesting innocent beings to power his engine all the way home. She was emotionally compromised, and took this personal. It's a human story.

"Then Ransom and the Equinox appear, embodying everything Janeway has fought to reject. He broke the Prime Directive, he broke his oath to Starfleet, and he and his crew seem indifferent. He immediately invalidates all of Voyager’s struggles by showing how easy it would be to take the lesser path. Where Janeway fought so hard to maintain her principles, Ransom cast them aside when he thought it could benefit his crew. And for a while it looks like Ransom and the Equinox will defeat Voyager and make it home long before they do, a fate Janeway cannot stomach." - Source

Allowing Neelix to remain on board

At the beginning Neelix is annoying. As the show matures, he becomes part of the family, I'm ok with that. I know you're being facetious here, but even in universe, it was DEFINITELY the right call having him aboard - he knew the terrain, and was a valuable guide.

Giving the Hirogen holographic technology. How many hirogen died due to that?

She did that to save her crew and ship, and in good faith as part of an agreement that the Hirogen stop hunting sentient life. The Hirogen caused the deaths you speak of, by altering the Holograms to retain memories after death, programming them to feel pain, etc.

Future Janeway going back in time messing with the past

It might violate the temporal prime directive, but she did it out of the sense of family to her crew. To save the ones she couldn't. Again, a human story.

I'll never understand the narrative around Janeway, it's as if people want to paint her as some brutal dictator. Of course it's easy to do that if you ignore the context, narrative, and remove her humanity.

Justin Credible Darts

I get they had to have the woman captain, after having the white male, black male etc and all the pc correctness, but as a captain Janeway was a joke.
Its hard to fathom how someone with her attitude would make it to captain, it would say more about the selection process in starfleet.

As an actress i liked her, but her character was abysmal, arrogant, self righteous, and i get you must have those things in being a captain but she was over the top.

Evade

Regarding Tuvix - "Starfleet was founded to seek out new life – well, there it sits!"

Once he came to be he had just as much right to exist as anyone.

AMKC

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I get they had to have the woman captain, after having the white male, black male etc and all the pc correctness, but as a captain Janeway was a joke.
Its hard to fathom how someone with her attitude would make it to captain, it would say more about the selection process in starfleet.

As an actress i liked her, but her character was abysmal, arrogant, self righteous, and i get you must have those things in being a captain but she was over the top.

I disagree. She was a good Captain who done what she had to to get her ship and crew home while sticking to the Prime Directive, her principles and everything the Federation and Starfleet stood for.

but her character was, arrogant, self righteous, and i get you must have those things in being a captain but she was over the top.

You could say that about Kirk or Sisko as well but Kirk more do. Kirk is also responsible for hundred's of his crew getting killed and he was not even that far into space.

Janeway was a good Captain. She might not have been a great Captain but she was a good one.

Rawr

Since we're on this subject:

Stark

I remember Seven of Nine raised the same point with her in one episode

Evade

Is it weird that that comic looks wrong to me because I know that's not where the briefing room is?

Rawr

Evade wrote: »

Is it weird that that comic looks wrong to me because I know that's not where the briefing room is?

Also that blue-shirt guy is clearly not a crew member...what's he doing at the meeting?

pixelburp

I wonder would Voyager have been a better show for the 8 / 13 episode era we now live in? Feels like padding out a "Lost in Space" story across 22 episode seasons was always going to shatter the premise with its endless detours and contrived "we must focus on these people above our immediate and obvious goal". Same problem really with plenty other shows, including this generation & those series still persisting with that large episode order.

Like, could you create a person 13 episode season purely on focused, relevant episodes per season?

IvySlayer

Evade wrote: »

Is it weird that that comic looks wrong to me because I know that's not where the briefing room is?

Rawr wrote: »

Also that blue-shirt guy is clearly not a crew member...what's he doing at the meeting?

Voyager has the worst looking briefing room table in Star Trek or possibly TV, its so ugly

Evade

IvySlayer wrote: »

Voyager has the worst looking briefing room table in Star Trek or possibly TV, its so ugly

It's oddly small too, I think the ready room is bigger. Maybe the door tags got mixed up somehow when Admiral Patterson was showing Janeway around her new ship.

Rawr

Evade wrote: »

It's oddly small too, I think the ready room is bigger. Maybe the door tags got mixed up somehow when Admiral Patterson was showing Janeway around her new ship.

If this is accurate then they're roughly the same size. The ready room probably looks larger because it has a lot more unused space.

Rawr

pixelburp wrote: »

I wonder would Voyager have been a better show for the 8 / 13 episode era we now live in? Feels like padding out a "Lost in Space" story across 22 episode seasons was always going to shatter the premise with its endless detours and contrived "we must focus on these people above our immediate and obvious goal". Same problem really with plenty other shows, including this generation & those series still persisting with that large episode order.

Like, could you create a person 13 episode season purely on focused, relevant episodes per season?

I was rewatching Year of Hell the other night I was wondering similar.
Many have levied the criticism that Year of Hell is what the entire show should have been. I agree with this, especially after a fresh viewing of the episode.

If you ignore the reset button at the end of this episode, then every death felt like a greater loss, every torpedo used became despite & expensive gamble and also every small victory felt greater. The Krenim Imperium also felt like a far more impressive foe, despite their otherwise generic design.

As an entire 90's era season of Trek, it might have gotten a bit depressing to watch Voyager slowly decay, but that could be helped with a shorter run of episodes and maybe some points in the series where they managed make some wins, repairing Voyager a little or getting some other kind of moral boost.
It certainly had the makings of being one of the most gripping Trek shows ever made....if they hadn't wussed out and turned it into diet-TNG.

IvySlayer

There's that episode were they are testing a cannon, but they don't install it in the end, would love to have seen Voyager change over the years adapting to the Delta Quadrant.

The only modifications I can think of were the delta flyer, borg tech and the quantum slipstream drive. And astrometrics of course. (I'm not including the armour and advanced weapons in Endgame).

A cloaking device would of been handy!!

AMKC

IvySlayer wrote: »

There's that episode were they are testing a cannon, but they don't install it in the end, would love to have seen Voyager change over the years adapting to the Delta Quadrant.

The only modifications I can think of were the delta flyer, borg tech and the quantum slipstream drive. And astrometrics of course. (I'm not including the armour and advanced weapons in Endgame).

A cloaking device would of been handy!!

They never got the opportunity to try a cloaking device as far as I am aware. I wonder would Janeway have went for it if the opportunity had arose?
It's not like they had to worry about any treaty's out there.

Evade

Rawr wrote: »

If this is accurate then they're roughly the same size. The ready room probably looks larger because it has a lot more unused space.

It's not. The second door in the ready room leads to a corridor not a private toilet.

nyarlothothep

Rawr wrote: »

I was rewatching Year of Hell the other night I was wondering similar.
Many have levied the criticism that Year of Hell is what the entire show should have been. I agree with this, especially after a fresh viewing of the episode.

If you ignore the reset button at the end of this episode, then every death felt like a greater loss, every torpedo used became despite & expensive gamble and also every small victory felt greater. The Krenim Imperium also felt like a far more impressive foe, despite their otherwise generic design.

As an entire 90's era season of Trek, it might have gotten a bit depressing to watch Voyager slowly decay, but that could be helped with a shorter run of episodes and maybe some points in the series where they managed make some wins, repairing Voyager a little or getting some other kind of moral boost.
It certainly had the makings of being one of the most gripping Trek shows ever made....if they hadn't wussed out and turned it into diet-TNG.

I guess if we're to look at "that which is left unsaid" or the subconscious of the show and how it manifests in particular episodes, Course Oblivion is symbolic of what really would have happened to Voyager if it were stuck in the Delta Quadrant irl e.g. completely fcked. Janeway's stubborn approach also got them killed, they should have returned fire on the alien assholes but no, she refused to listen to Paris and this time, because she was a clone, there was no saving throw plot armour.

Ivy Slayer wrote: »

Voyager has the worst looking briefing room table in Star Trek or possibly TV, its so ugly

I was just thinking today, and maybe it's because of the time frame I watched it in, but Voyager's interior has somehow got a Windows 95 aesthetic and it makes absolutely no sense, maybe it's the muted greys and beige?

IvySlayer

I've noticed in later DS9 you very rarely see OPS or the briefing room, because of the war obviously, Siskos Office and Defiant bridge are shown much more.

368100

Rawr wrote: »

Also that blue-shirt guy is clearly not a crew member...what's he doing at the meeting?

And the saucer section is the wrong shape ;-)

368100

Few mentions about Tuvix there, I have to say he was the creepiest yolk I've ever seen in star trek.....gave me the willies :-)

IvySlayer

Tuvik is the perfect moral dilemma, I understand both sides of the argument and tbh my opinion changes.

Ultimately I think it was wrong to kill him, even to save 2 people.

nyarlothothep

Omg, just watched the delta flyer race again, wtf is B'elanna's problem???? When Tom explains the importance of the race she's like "oh that's ok" and then makes it into a big deal because they had "planned" a getaway in a holodeck simulation (how exactly does that work?). Could she not have supported him in his absolute, abiding passion for piloting like a good partner instead of bringing all that boring emotional crap into the fray? And then she wanted to co-pilot and I immediately saw problems. What she does is actually sabotage Tom by briefly mentioning marital issues in the middle of a competition and then going "oh nothing, focus on the race" which leads Tom to fixate on them instead of what's more important. If it were Harry there would be no emotional, relationship talk, just good, solid piloting, tech talk and camaraderie. It's actually funny that the implicit message seems to be, "don't mix girls/relationships with winning" because Harry is sabotaged by that alien lady too. At least Seven seemed to come across as refreshingly straight forward in her conversation with B'elanna.

I just think B'elanna is remarkably selfish and duplicitous in this ep, Tom forgot about that marriage event because his first love is piloting and ships and he logically pointed out that it was still on, it was just postponed for a week (like big deal) and that should be ok with B'elanna, surely she has hobbies she can follow too????

IvySlayer

Well, she spent a long time organizing it (switching around holodeck time with others) and Tom forgot about it originally, then wanted to race rather than spend the weekend away with his wife.

Yeah B'Elanna overreacted and was manipulative, she is very insecure about relationships since her father abandoned her, she displayed the same behavior in Lineage with her baby.

pixelburp

Because Star Trek was always pretty terrible at writing real, functioning emotional relationships. Not that there were many of them to begin with, but the ones based on long term partners tended to fall foul of the lazy cliché of marriage: that of the "wife as nagging shrew" stereotype, even when that woman was half-Klingon (perhaps more so). The old "ball & chain" reduction, where the woman tuts and disapproves of the man's pastimes / friends / career and wants to do relationship things (yuck, girls amirite? etc. etc.). DS9, like most things Trek, stands as representative of both the best of Trek writing, and worst - in this case O'Brien and Kiko

nyarlothothep

IvySlayer wrote: »

Well, she spent a long time organizing it (switching around holodeck time with others) and Tom forgot about it originally, then wanted to race rather than spend the weekend away with his wife.

Yeah B'Elanna overreacted and was manipulative, she is very insecure about relationships since her father abandoned her, she displayed the same behavior in Lineage with her baby.

Ah that explains it re the father thing. That was such an anemic episode too. Actually did anyone notice Harry Kim started speaking really weirdly after announcing that he would be co-pilot with the alien girl? It was like he was delivering all his lines in a very precise, over emphasised/laboured dictation.

Justin Credible Darts

that said I enjoyed the character ob B'lanna, she was funny in a sarcastic way, and possibly the best character in voyager, which was not saying much when you had kitchen rat neelix stinking up the show, janeway arrogant and bullish.
I liked chakotay but boy was he given crap, kes was annoying.

Tuvok andB'lanna were the best characters imo, even chakotay and seven were better than the rest.