General Star Trek thread

Stark

Slydice wrote: »

I liked this quote

https://twitter.com/actordougjones/status/1273338073338613764

Why do they have to make Star Trek all woke and political? :pac:

Inviere

Stark wrote: »

Why do they have to make Star Trek all woke and political? :pac:

It's just a show with a message, always has been. 'Woke' culture arrived long after Star Trek...

IvySlayer

One thing to know about Roddenberry is he always tried to have diversity. He had TV pilots thrown out simply because he wanted black people in them.

However he was a little **** about other things.

pixelburp

Trek was the Ur-Woke show. Broadcast today it'd be slammed for pandering and shoving diversity in peoples faces etc. You know it's true (assuming the more ... uh, culturally 60s episodes were dropped lol). The buzzwords change but the meaning stays the same.

Anyway, the phrase doesn't even mean anything anymore beyond "a level of inclusivity I personally don't like". The TOS bridge could only have been more superficially inclusive if it included gay folk. It was such empty "woke" calories, Nichelle Nichols nearly left the show because her character was such a non entity (until that apparent, maybe apocryphal [?] meeting with ML King).

IvySlayer wrote: »

One thing to know about Roddenberry is he always tried to have diversity. He had TV pilots thrown out simply because he wanted black people in them.

However he was a little **** about other things.

Such as what? Am curious; had heard he was a little cantankerous with TNG but that's about it

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

Such as what? Am curious; had heard he was a little cantankerous with TNG but that's about it

Affairs, abusive to underlings, drink/drugs AFAIK

Stark

He was generally well known for being sexist/misogynist from what I've read in several places.

You can sort of see it in how badly written female characters were in TOS/early TNG (and the other characters' attitudes towards them) though that could be just reflective of the era those shows were written as well.

IvySlayer

pixelburp wrote: »

Such as what? Am curious; had heard he was a little cantankerous with TNG but that's about it

There's a documentary called Chaos on the bridge which explains it. How TNG survived Roddenberry is a miracle.

Other things like he wrote lyrics for the TOS theme which were never used but demanded 50% royalties anyway

He would receive scripts then make minor changes and then get 50% residuals etc

Inviere

pixelburp wrote: »

Trek was the Ur-Woke show. Broadcast today it'd be slammed for pandering and shoving diversity in peoples faces etc.

I think that's a more than a little unfair. Star Trek was doing this when nobody else was, and wouldn't be for decades to come. Therefore, it wasn't just the shallow tokenism that you see today whereby boxes have to be ticked....Star Trek was doing this when it was a problem to tick these boxes, it fought against a system that didn't want such characters/races/genders in such positions...and that makes it quite different. It was a pioneer of a show in many areas, and shouldn't be lumped in with the shows today that have to have a black person, an asian person, a gay person, and a woman.

You're forgetting the cultural importance of the characters on the bridge:

Sulu - An Asian man who many in the US would have seen as an enemy (WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc)
Chekov - A Russian (feared and despised in the US re communism)
Uhura - Not only a woman, but a woman of colour...serving in the same room, on the same ship, as all of the men & in a position of responsibility
Spock - an alien being, second in command of the entire ship

All serving together under a flag of equality and peace, as equals, with mutual respect. That's huge for the 60's, & those roles had actual cultural significance, meaning, and social importance. They certainly were not boxes being ticked.

I say all that as someone who can take or leave TOS...it has its place in Star Trek history, but I wouldn't consider myself a die hard fan of the show.

pixelburp

Inviere wrote: »

I think that's a more than a little unfair. Star Trek was doing this when nobody else was, and wouldn't be for decades to come. Therefore, it wasn't just the shallow tokenism that you see today whereby boxes have to be ticked....Star Trek was doing this when it was a problem to tick these boxes, it fought against a system that didn't want such characters/races/genders in such positions...and that makes it quite different. It was a pioneer of a show in many areas, and shouldn't be lumped in with the shows today that have to have a black person, an asian person, a gay person, and a woman.

You're forgetting the cultural importance of the characters on the bridge:

I'm clearly not forgetting, given I literally mentioned MLK persuaded Nichols to stay on the show?

My point, such as it is, is that "woke" is ultimately a lazy reductionism to describe tropes and shopping list fiction writing since the year dot. And every era reflects the zeitgeist, you can't escape it. Trek TOS was no exception, even if it came with the context of hindsight; the bridge crew was still am expression of liberal Californian mores. Didn't make the characters any less token though, given they had ZERO characterisation (prompting Nichols' cold feet in the first place). That's textbook tokenism right there, even the actors knew that, others like Takei having to riff with Sulu & his fencing.

Any hey, maybe today we're living in another cultural shift - consider that! Just this week the US showed it's still grappling in the courts with sexual prejudice so perhaps we're not living in a post racial, post prejudice world. There's a huge groundswell of opinion that says racism still exists. You can quibble the methods of protest sure, but perhaps fiction still needs to champion purely for the sake of championing.

And even if it doesn't - that's fiction writing. There's a thin line between a trope and token in the first place and it's not always clear or obvious ...

Token lead
Token love interest
Token antagonist
Token "Big Bad"
Token black guy (South park lampooned this 20 years ago lol)
Token woman
Token scientist
Token Exposition guy (sometimes the scientist)
Token father figure

And so on and so on. Searching for "woke" among the pile of tokens labeled "generic scriptwriting" just feels like hollow namedropping of a cheap buzzword. It's all token. They're all tropes. Doesn't matter if it's a token gay guy or token love interest.

Original (dramatic) thinking is a myth. TOS was a trailblazer but it wasn't immune to the same argument made today. Shítty writing is shítty writing but I don't begrudge the same desire to at least include through tropes, even if it's as thin as TOS'.

AMKC

Its thirty years ago today that the best ever Star Trek cliffhanger aired.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4hj4cZKecQ

Best cliffhanger ever.

I was not even a teen when I seen that for the first time.

I did not sleep that night.

Evade

AMKC wrote: »

Its thirty years ago today that the best ever Star Trek cliffhanger aired.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4hj4cZKecQ

Best cliffhanger ever.

I was not even a teen when I seen that for the first time.

I dod not sleep that night.

I saw it on the Sky One repeat when I was 7 or 8. The Borg used to scare the crap out of me.

AMKC

Evade wrote: »

I saw it on the Sky One repeat when I was 7 or 8. The Borg used to scare the crap out of me.

The here. Its terrible what Voyager done to them.

They were the greatest villain and enemy Star Trek, the Federaton and the Alpha Quadrant ever had.

I think the only enemy in a show that scared me as much as te Borg the first time in a show is The Replicators out of Stargate. They were unstoppable for a good while. Fair play to the Stargate writers for not nueturing them.

pixelburp

Was Patrick Stewarts return ever in doubt? Seemed like the kind of cliffhanger often used with potentially brittle contracts and the characters fate could go either way. Imagine if they really kept Picard dead, or worse/better, a Borg factotum. Ha, man that would have been insane.

Stark

I believe it was in doubt whether he was returning for season 4 or not alright.

They had a similar issue with Kate Mulgrew between seasons 5 and 6 of Voyager, hence the season 5 finale with a killer alien flying straight towards her face.

somuj

pixelburp wrote: »

Was Patrick Stewarts return ever in doubt? Seemed like the kind of cliffhanger often used with potentially brittle contracts and the characters fate could go either way. Imagine if they really kept Picard dead, or worse/better, a Borg factotum. Ha, man that would have been insane.

Met him. Didn't think it would last after first season. Said was happy as Larry after season 3.

somuj

Stark wrote: »

I believe it was in doubt whether he was returning for season 4 or not alright.

They had a similar issue with Kate Mulgrew between seasons 5 and 6 of Voyager, hence the season 5 finale with a killer alien flying straight towards her face.

What do ye be reading or where are ye reading stuff?

Inviere

pixelburp wrote: »

the bridge crew was still am expression of liberal Californian mores. Didn't make the characters any less token though, given they had ZERO characterisation

They were much more than just localised liberal mores...they were representative of a vision...a vision whereby some day, some time, humans would be able to put their differences aside and work together, as one. Obviously Roddenberry's vision, despite his failings in other areas.

The races/genders in TOS were not mandated boxes to be ticked like they would be today...they had purpose, and meaning in being there. Granted their development wasn't great...but lets not assume producing, writing, and getting scripts on screen 60 years ago is the same as today...there were battles with executives the whole time (in an age when white men were very front and center on and off screen), so merely getting those characters on screen was a win in itself.

There's a huge groundswell of opinion that says racism still exists. You can quibble the methods of protest sure, but perhaps fiction still needs to champion purely for the sake of championing.

Absolutely it should, but if it's going to do it, it should be done right. People are not stupid, there can be a very fine line between creating a meaningful character who represents a minority...and just having that character there to tick a social box....it can be very obvious when it's done badly...and done badly often enough, leads to a general fatigue of these social issues.

I do not care what colour, creed, or gender a character on the screen is....I really could not care less....just give me well written, meaningful, and well thought out characters who have scope for development.

pixelburp

Stark wrote: »

I believe it was in doubt whether he was returning for season 4 or not alright.

They had a similar issue with Kate Mulgrew between seasons 5 and 6 of Voyager, hence the season 5 finale with a killer alien flying straight towards her face.

Would be an interesting What If, had TNG become the captain Riker show instead. Arguably it launched Stewarts career into the next level of exposure. Probably would have continued as a theatre thespian otherwise mind you.

368100

pixelburp wrote: »

Would be an interesting What If, had TNG become the captain Riker show instead. Arguably it launched Stewarts career into the next level of exposure. Probably would have continued as a theatre thespian otherwise mind you.

I don’t think Jonathan Frakes ever wanted to progress his acting career after TNG, I remember watching an interview with him and he said he always wanted to go the director route. He directed a few TNG episodes and I think some DS9/VOY. TNG just gave him the platform to get into directing.

Stewart would have totally continued being a stage actor if he hadn’t done TNG. He thought he would be back doing that a few months after starting TNG as he didn’t think it would take off.

Stark

He's directed some Discovery and Picard episodes as well, also "First Contact". Generally does a fine job of it when he's in the director chair, I always look forward to an episode when I see his name on the credits.

odyssey06

pixelburp wrote: »

Would be an interesting What If, had TNG become the captain Riker show instead. Arguably it launched Stewarts career into the next level of exposure. Probably would have continued as a theatre thespian otherwise mind you.

I wonder if Selby was lined up as the new number one in that eventuality.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Would be an interesting What If, had TNG become the captain Riker show instead.

Either crazy beard PTSD Riker or Wesley as security chief.

Slydice

I remember googling whatever happened to Shelby and the actress some time in the last few years. Was kinda disheartened at how low profile she stayed.

Stark

Slydice wrote: »

I remember googling whatever happened to Shelby and the actress some time in the last few years. Was kinda disheartened at how low profile she stayed.

Likewise. A very much underrated character in my opinion. Absolutely loved her in "Best of both worlds". Unapologetically ambitious and I very much enjoyed seeing her take Riker's dickheadery head on, whereas a weaker character would have been crushed by him. As head of Starfleet's counter-Borg taskforce, she should have been featured again in later instalments imo.

Evade

Stark wrote: »

Likewise. A very much underrated character in my opinion. Absolutely loved her in "Best of both worlds". Unapologetically ambitious and I very much enjoyed seeing her take Riker's dickheadery head on, whereas a weaker character would have been crushed by him. As head of Starfleet's counter-Borg taskforce, she should have been featured again in later instalments imo.

Absolutely. The way writers are paid royalties makes it cheaper to have suspiciously similar characters instead of reusing them. She was sort of mentioned again in DS9 as captain of the Sutherland but that was retconned away because of a novel rights thing.

Stark

Evade wrote: »

Absolutely. The way writers are paid royalties makes it cheaper to have suspiciously similar characters instead of reusing them. She was sort of mentioned again in DS9 as captain of the Sutherland but that was retconned away because of a novel rights thing.

Ah yes, the "Nicholas Locarno"/"Tom Paris" effect.

AMKC

Stark wrote: »

Ah yes, the "Nicholas Locarno"/"Tom Paris" effect.

We should all just call "Nich Locarno" Tom Paris as we all know that is who the character is anyway.

Rawr

AMKC wrote: »

We should all just call "Nich Locarno" Tom Paris as we all know that is who the character is anyway.

(Puts on Head-Canon Hat)

Maybe....just maybe....Tom Paris went to the Academy under an alias in order to avoid special treatment. Maybe...all cadets who are kids of high-ranking Starfleet officers tend to do this for the duration of their stay.

So maybe he really was Tom Paris in-universe too....

(Takes off Hat)
But he was totally Paris...because *come on*!!!

Evade

And everyone on the Enterprise just kept calling Vorik, Taurik. It was almost worth being stranded in the Delta Quadrant on Voyager because they actually bothered to get his name right

nyarlothothep

Saw First Contact again, one of the best Star Trek films, it's a small film (Two Takes Frakes makes small/mid sized films) but very entertaining, the first warp flight is the best part of it for me because it's a cool scenario to imagine in real life.