General Star Trek thread

Evade

Even people who didn't like Enterprise when it came out probably think it's in the middle of the best to worst list of Star Trek series now.

pixelburp

I'd rate Discovery over Enterprise myself; with Picard lesser than the 2000s show. Enterprise started awful, really really awful and redeemed itself before fumbling the final pass; Picard started strong and kinda went a bit off the rails on retrospect. Discovery is a show - like Enterprise - that doesn't quite know what it wants to be but I've enjoyed the first two seasons way more than I did Enterprise's own. Just about like - it's degrees of tolerability here.

If season 3 becomes the iteration where Discovery finally coalesces, it'll be history repeating itself with Trek; as that has often been the case (with the exception being TOS where it went off a cliff-edge of quality), Enterprise included.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

I'd rate Discovery over Enterprise myself; with Picard lesser than the 2000s show. Enterprise started awful, really really awful and redeemed itself before fumbling the final pass; Picard started strong and kinda went a bit off the rails on retrospect. Discovery is a show - like Enterprise - that doesn't quite know what it wants to be but I've enjoyed the first two seasons way more than I did Enterprise's own. Just about like - it's degrees of tolerability here.

If season 3 becomes the iteration where Discovery finally coalesces, it'll be history repeating itself with Trek; as that has often been the case (with the exception being TOS where it went off a cliff-edge of quality), Enterprise included.

I've just finished season 2 and it was far far stronger than I remember, season 3 is great so far.

Justin Credible Darts

Evade wrote: »

Even people who didn't like Enterprise when it came out probably think it's in the middle of the best to worst list of Star Trek series now.

compared to picard, discovery and lower decks is probably the best of them

pixelburp

Deleted User wrote: »

I've just finished season 2 and it was far far stronger than I remember, season 3 is great so far.

Season 2 had some stand out episodes, but the third run was definitely the first time the show knew what it wanted to be about - and not the Temporal Cold War nobody outside those surnamed Braga gave a damn about. Season 4's mini-arcs remain a genius idea still to this day rarely applied to shows who'd otherwise benefit from that structure.

_Kaiser_

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

compared to picard, discovery and lower decks is probably the best of them

You're being too hard on Lower Decks. I hated the first episode but could see a glimmer of promise nonetheless so stuck with it. By mid-season it started to hit its stride and the finale was pure vintage Trek

It's worth another go.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You're being too hard on Lower Decks. I hated the first episode but could see a glimmer of promise nonetheless so stuck with it. By mid-season it started to hit its stride and the finale was pure vintage Trek

It's worth another go.

Oh don't get into this with him on this thread too, please

Goodshape

Well if we're doing rankings...

TNG
DS9
TOS
DISC
VOY
ENT/PIC

Maybe too harsh on Picard there but at the moment I think I'd miss it the least if it had never happened.

Not sure where I'd put Lower Decks. Not sure it really fits on that list to be honest. I like it though.

Stark

TNG/DS9
TOS
VOY
LD
DISC
ENT/PIC

for me.

Remains to be seen how things will fare with Discovery season 3, will it be the season where it settles down and finds it feet or not. At the moment, if I had to choose another season of only one of Picard, Discovery or Lower Decks, it would definitely be Lower Decks.

pixelburp

Hmmm, were I to rank:

DS9 .. Trek has never been better on a broad length. Not just good Trek, but good TV drama period.
TNG .. Pivotal episodes, but half its cast were poor, and the show at its worst could be seen here
TOS .. Kinda the same as above TBH.
DISC . Frustrates because as said, it doesn't seem to know what it wants to be.
ENT .. Half good, too little done too late though. The utter lack of good characters sunk it too often.
PIC ... A good premise squandered with a back half that betrayed a lack of direction
VOY .. The rot of Enterprise started here. Bad cast, bad stories, despite a genuinely great premise.

Lower Decks I'm still watching so I won't put it on the list yet

Evade

Since I brought it up.

• DS9
• TNG
• TOS
• ENT
• VOY
• STD
• PIC

Some days I'd switch Enterprise and Voyager, they're very close. I'm waiting for a non peg-legged way to watch Lower Decks.

EDIT: My ranking system is basically "which would I rather watch a good episode of?"

Justin Credible Darts

Evade wrote: »

Since I brought it up.

• DS9
• TNG
• TOS
• ENT
• VOY
• STD
• PIC

Some days I'd switch Enterprise and Voyager, they're very close. I'm waiting for a non peg-legged way to watch Lower Decks.

EDIT: My ranking system is basically "which would I rather watch a good episode of?"

I would go with almost all that, but would have voyager just ahead of enterprise.


thena gap between picard and discovery to represent the gap in class between modern trek and the older trek

breezy1985

pixelburp wrote: »

Season 2 had some stand out episodes, but the third run was definitely the first time the show knew what it wanted to be about - and not the Temporal Cold War nobody outside those surnamed Braga gave a damn about. Season 4's mini-arcs remain a genius idea still to this day rarely applied to shows who'd otherwise benefit from that structure.

I agree and most of its monster of the week standalone episodes are as good or better than VOY and DS9 but disagree about the later seasons where they really chicken out and give us Borg and Soong and other memberberries

DS9
TNG
ENT
TOS
DSC
PIC
VOY

Enterprise rose in quality in Season 2, hit stride in 3, and knocked it out of the park in season 4. Such a pity went no further as it was bloody purring along.
Voyager started as a survival horror style. Beset by enemies, no resources, 2 crews forced together and became happy families hitting the reset button together in perfect harmony. Biggest wasted potential of all shows

Lower Decks started weak and had stellar ending but only one season. Let's see which season half is going to be the true representation before rating

Justin Credible Darts

what is evident today is how popular DS9 is now.
Personally it was my favorite from day one, the arcs, the darker theme, the screw you gene type storylines of the federation not being a paradise made the show better.

Always seen as the ginger stepchild between tng and voyager by so many back then, it finally gets the praise it rightfully deserves

Evade

I always liked DS9 too. I used to prefer TNG but they gradually switched the older I got. I must have been way outside the target age for DS9 too, I was barely a teenager when it ended.

JayRoc

1.TOS
2.TNG
3. DS9 (I almost love TNG and DS9 equally)
4. The original animated series (I still rewatch it every few years, it's not fantastic but it's still better than anything made after DS9).

Then Picard but was still pretty disappointed by it

I consider Voyager/Discovery/Enterprise to be equally awful tbh.

I honestly haven't made my mind up about Lower Decks yet. It started very unevenly for me but definitely got better. I will watch the 2nd season when it comes out.

JayRoc

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

what is evident today is how popular DS9 is now.
Personally it was my favorite from day one, the arcs, the darker theme, the screw you gene type storylines of the federation not being a paradise made the show better.

Agree. But they still kept the sense of wonder and excitement that encapsulates Trek for so many of us, whereas it seemed to be completely lacking in Picard. Which was the element of the show I found most disappointing.

pixelburp

Tastes change over time; DS9's more serialised storyteling and darkening shades of the Federation rankled people then. The mid 1990s - while not exactly Utopian - were broadly stable and prosperous. Art often reflects the mood of the time, the zeitgeist, so I'd also speculate that latterly, DS9 better reflects the modern fictional moods. That post 9/11, 2008+ depression that seeps into a lot of fiction nowadays; heck IIRC many themes of DS9 remain fairly topical, especially around the subject of surveillance, security and so on.

Not saying that's what informs everyone's enjoyment - clearly - just that it probably helped give DS9 a new environment & context for retrospective appraisel. And sure who knows, in another 20 years the zeitgeist will have shifted again and what was considered good now passé, or bad praiseworthy. So it goes.

Justin Credible Darts

JayRoc wrote: »

Agree. But they still kept the sense of wonder and excitement that encapsulates Trek for so many of us, whereas it seemed to be completely lacking in Picard. Which was the element of the show I found most disappointing.

the wormhole gave us the option of the "aliens" coming to the station instead of tng going to the aliens.


Plus no other trek show, came nowhere even close to giving us the depth of characters DS9 gave.


I have oft said even the secondary characters were given more depth than some of the main characters on other shows.


Dukat, Martok, Garak, Damar, Weyoun, etc all had more depth that geordi, troi or crusher in ds9 for the most part.

AMKC

pixelburp wrote: »

I'd rate Discovery over Enterprise myself; with Picard lesser than the 2000s show. Enterprise started awful, really really awful and redeemed itself before fumbling the final pass; Picard started strong and kinda went a bit off the rails on retrospect. Discovery is a show - like Enterprise - that doesn't quite know what it wants to be but I've enjoyed the first two seasons way more than I did Enterprise's own. Just about like - it's degrees of tolerability here.

If season 3 becomes the iteration where Discovery finally coalesces, it'll be history repeating itself with Trek; as that has often been the case (with the exception being TOS where it went off a cliff-edge of quality), Enterprise included.

I rate Enterprise way over Discovery myself.Enterprise is more Star Trek than Discovery based ever been.

I would say
TNG,
DS9,
VOYAGER,
ENTERPRISE,
TOS,
PICARD THEN
DISCOVERY

flazio

Are we incorporating TAS into TOS or just erasing it rather than putting it below DSC.
Also, what are we using for Lower Decks? LWD?

Evade

I forgot about TAS. Memory Alpha uses LD for Lower Decks.

breezy1985

Deleted User wrote: »

Voyager started as a survival horror style. Beset by enemies, no resources, 2 crews forced together and became happy families hitting the reset button together in perfect harmony. Biggest wasted potential of all shows

I know they have replicators and stuff but it really bugs me how pristine Voyager looks after 7 years alone. BSG came along a few years later and showed it what a battered ship alone should look like

Evade

breezy1985 wrote: »

I know they have replicators and stuff but it really bugs me how pristine Voyager looks after 7 years alone. BSG came along a few years later and showed it what a battered ship alone should look like

They can't even use the excuse of wanting to reuse establishing shots because in three two-parters that I can think of off the top of my head they altered the hull quit a bit two of which went back to normal after the reset button was hit.

pah

I think the 2 part year of hell showed what could have been done with Voyager. I recall it was planned as a season long story possibly. It really was just TNNG though quite disappointing really

TheValeyard

breezy1985 wrote: »

I know they have replicators and stuff but it really bugs me how pristine Voyager looks after 7 years alone. BSG came along a few years later and showed it what a battered ship alone should look like

So battered she literally breaks her back.

ilovesmybrick

TheValeyard wrote: »

So battered she literally breaks her back.

In fairness BSG was Ronald D Moore taking what he had learned in serialising the end of DS9 and running with it, BSG was groundbreaking. I remember watching that scene with the back breaking and having to rewind it 'cos there had never been anything like that before, it was so shocking!

pixelburp

Season 4 was a whipping boy, but still contained a lot of emotional, great moments. For sure watching the dependable, faithful archaic ship - after giving so much - finally crumple was, yeah, kinda heartbreaking. Second only to Roslin and Adamas final scene together. Has its detractors and it mostly centres around the plotting but the BSG finale still lingers for me.

Goodshape

I might watch that final season again. Didn't really appreciate how it ended at the time; maybe my own expectations and fan theories got in the way. I definitely remember there seeming to be less of a coherent "plan" than they had initially let on.

The series really started to suffer under the weight of those 20+ episode seasons.