General Star Trek thread

TheValeyard

AMKC wrote: »

So I was just watching the DS9 episode "Field of Fire" and in it it is mentioned that the USS Grissom had a crew of 1250 and when it was destroyed only 6 of the crew survived. Well I have done some searching and it seems it was an Excelsior class ship. So what is your opinion on an Excelsior class having over 1200 crew? That is more than a Galaxy class which is a bigger ship.

https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Grissom_(NCC-42857)

May have had ground combat troops onboard.

Evade

TheValeyard wrote: »

May have had ground combat troops onboard.

Yeah, the Enterprise from Yesterday's Enterprise could carry 6,000 ground troops. That or like Dax said "they really packed them in on these old ship" referring to a Constitution class but, eh, contemporary enough.

I'd be surprised if a lot of Dominion war Galaxy classes were crewed by the 1,100 - 1,200 the Enterprise usually had a lot of that seemed like it was science division and in war you might be persuaded to swap to a more in need division.

Captain: Ah ensign Shurn, welcome aboard. I see you have advanced degrees in exobotany and geology.
Shurn: Yes sir, top of my class in both.
Captain: Well yes, excellent. However we're assigned to the sixth fleet there won't be many opportunities for scientific study.
Shurn: Oh.
Captain: How well are you acquainted with a phaser rifle.
Shurn: I have fired one sir, at the Academy, in the mandatory training phase.
Captain: Excellent. Replicate yourself a gold uniform and report to Lieutenant Kimura, the chief of security.
Shurn: Sir!?
Captain: Off you go, ensign.

AMKC

TheValeyard wrote: »

May have had ground combat troops onboard.

Ye maybe. Was kind of thinking that alright.

AMKC

What do you people think the Borg would have thought of the Xindi or the Tholian?

Me I think they would assimalate Xindi easily enough but with the Tholians it would be harder. Maybe they would just decide to destroy any Tholian ships they encounter instead of trying to assimalate an insecticide. Might be the same with Xindi insecticides too.

Slydice

All would adapt to service the Borg!

breezy1985

AMKC wrote: »

What do you people think the Borg would have thought of the Xindi or the Tholian?

Me I think they would assimalate Xindi easily enough but with the Tholians it would be harder. Maybe they would just decide to destroy any Tholian ships they encounter instead of trying to assimalate an insecticide. Might be the same with Xindi insecticides too.

The Tholians were made of crystal or something so maybe nano probes would not work

AMKC

breezy1985 wrote: »

The Tholians were made of crystal or something so maybe nano probes would not work

So maybe the Borg would just leave them alone or kill them and steel there unique net technology. The Tholians did have some quit advanced tech anytime we seen them in TOS or Enterprise there technolagy was more advanced than human technolagy.

Evade

AMKC wrote: »

What do you people think the Borg would have thought of the Xindi or the Tholian?

Me I think they would assimalate Xindi easily enough but with the Tholians it would be harder. Maybe they would just decide to destroy any Tholian ships they encounter instead of trying to assimalate an insecticide. Might be the same with Xindi insecticides too.

Xindi are pretty normal from a biology point so they'd be no problem. Tholians are weirder but they could still have a something assimilatable under the carapace. I'd like to see how they'd approach assimilating the thought energy species like Nagilum, Armus (sort of), or even a Q.

Stark

We never did see a non-humanoid Borg. Be interesting to see how they'd assimilate an aquatic Xindi for instance.

Evade

Stark wrote: »

We never did see a non-humanoid Borg. Be interesting to see how they'd assimilate an aquatic Xindi for instance.

They're probably big enough to be assimilated into something more like a small ship than a typical drone.

pixelburp

Are the Borg even known in passing conversation to have assimilated non humanoids? Notwithstanding the usual obvious point of budget n all, they seem more interested in mammalian bipeds; wonder is it a lingering genetic style memory of their original form

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Are the Borg even known in passing conversation to have assimilated non humanoids? Notwithstanding the usual obvious point of budget n all, they seem more interested in mammalian bipeds; wonder is it a lingering genetic style memory of their original form

We've seen that they've tried at least once, species 8472, so it's not too much of a leap to assume they've tried before or since and we haven't seen them because of budget. Or if you subscribe to the Cardassians are reptiles speculation then they've assimilated at least one non mammalian species.

EDIT: We do also know that they'll ignore what they consider inferior species that would take away from their strive towards perfection, the Kazon.

breezy1985

Evade wrote: »

Xindi are pretty normal from a biology point so they'd be no problem. Tholians are weirder but they could still have a something assimilatable under the carapace. I'd like to see how they'd approach assimilating the thought energy species like Nagilum, Armus (sort of), or even a Q.

Impossible to assimilate anything without blood and a bloodstream at least with the technology we have seen on screen.

Wonder what happens if they assimilate a member of another hive mind like the lads from The Cage or the Binars

Evade

breezy1985 wrote: »

Impossible to assimilate anything without blood and a bloodstream at least with the technology we have seen on screen.

I wouldn't say it's impossible just slower if the nanoprobes don't have a circulatory system to piggyback on to spread.

breezy1985

Evade wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's impossible just slower if the nanoprobes don't have a circulatory system to piggyback on to spread.

Given what we have seen there is no way they could infect anything that is not solid at least

Evade

breezy1985 wrote: »

Given what we have seen there is no way they could infect anything that is not solid at least

Yeah, things like Changelings or most other shapeshifters are almost definitely out.

pixelburp

So we know Picard had the chance with High, and it may have been asked before cos it feels vaguely familiar: what would YOU have done? Would you have killed the Borg with that killer code or left them, believing they had a chance at redemption?

Me? Nuke them. I'd not have lost a wink of sleep about ridding the universe of those locusts.

breezy1985

pixelburp wrote: »

So we know Picard had the chance with High, and it may have been asked before cos it feels vaguely familiar: what would YOU have done? Would you have killed the Borg with that killer code or left them, believing they had a chance at redemption?

Me? Nuke them. I'd not have lost a wink of sleep about ridding the universe of those locusts.

But Hugh was a victim and a human with rights and Picard understood that. Nowadays he would be vapourised on the spot

pixelburp

breezy1985 wrote: »

But Hugh was a victim and a human with rights and Picard understood that. Nowadays he would be vapourised on the spot

Needs of the many n all that. In this case most of the universe was put in continued peril by what turned out to be the incorrect belief the Borg might change based on Hugh's influence. Since that point, billions probably died or were assimilated by a near unstoppable force. I dunno, the TNG creed was cool and often made for genuinely complex, nuances stories but here? The Borg needed to be destroyed. First Contact showed how close the Federation came to falling in a single battle.

Evade

I'm going to take the controversial stance of being against genocide, even against genociders. Doing it once is looking down an angled plane with zero friction.

The Borg are locusts - genocide

The Founders want to subjugate the galaxy - genocide

The Romulans invaded the somewhere again - genocide

The Nausicans are pirates - genocide

The Talaxians are annoying - genocide (although, Jetrel did nothing wrong)

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

billions probably died or were assimilated by a near unstoppable force.

Almost certainly trillions. Humans are 5618 and there's a 10026. Still against genocide.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

I'm going to take the controversial stance of being against genocide, even against genociders. Doing it once is looking down an angled plane with zero friction.

The Borg are locusts - genocide

The Founders want to subjugate the galaxy - genocide

The Romulans invaded the somewhere again - genocide

The Nausicans are pirates - genocide

The Talaxians are annoying - genocide (although, Jetrel did nothing wrong)

All the above are sapient races with cultures and views that allow for diplomatic or intellectual understanding, conflict often the result of the ancient repeat of history. And indeed likely faced their own troubles with the Borg. There was never any sense the Borg offered anything to the galaxy, not even in some Thanos esque idea of natural balance.

Genocide implies the Borg are a race that are unique or have worth to the galaxy - yet their very being assimilates others, without consent, yielding a forced gestalt mind. They likely theyselves caused genocide countless times over in the pursuit of nothing more than programmed intent. There's nothing to genocide. They're basically Trek's idea of a zombie plague.

Evade

The Borg almost certainly contain the last remnants of hundreds, if not thousands, of other races. If you genocide the Borg you guarantee their end too.

There's also the complicating factor that at some point in the future (probably, maybe, "I hate temporal mechanics" - CPO Miles E. O'Brien circa 2371) the Borg change tactic and only steal genetic information and breed new drones from scratch.

AMKC

Evade wrote: »

Yeah, things like Changelings or most other shapeshifters are almost definitely out.

I disagree with changelings and shapshifters been out. In fact I think because of there simpler genetic make up they would be easier for the Borg to assimalate but once assimilated they would no longer be able to shapeshift or change shapes. The nano probes would take care of all the things like food and metabolism just like they do in all the solid races and they would just sleep like any other drone in a cubicle.

Evade

AMKC wrote: »

I disagree with changelings and shapshifters been out. In fact I think because of there simpler genetic make up they would be easier for the Borg to assimalate but once assimilated they would no longer be able to shapeshift or change shapes. The nano probes would take care of all the things like food and metabolism just like they do in all the solid races and they would just sleep like any other drone in a cubicle.

The thing with Changlings is they can essentially turn into a rock if they want to, I'm not sure if the Borg could assimilate that. With regard to other shapeshifters like the girl from Star Trek VI or Salia and Anya from TNG's the Dauphin their abilities haven't been as well defined so it's hard to know.

breezy1985

pixelburp wrote: »

Needs of the many n all that. In this case most of the universe was put in continued peril by what turned out to be the incorrect belief the Borg might change based on Hugh's influence. Since that point, billions probably died or were assimilated by a near unstoppable force. I dunno, the TNG creed was cool and often made for genuinely complex, nuances stories but here? The Borg needed to be destroyed. First Contact showed how close the Federation came to falling in a single battle.

Sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many

AMKC

Evade wrote: »

The thing with Changlings is they can essentially turn into a rock if they want to, I'm not sure if the Borg could assimilate that. With regard to other shapeshifters like the girl from Star Trek VI or Salia and Anya from TNG's the Dauphin their abilities haven't been as well defined so it's hard to know.

The Borg might have the knowledge to stop that do. All they have to do is assimalate some Romulans or Cardassians that were in there secret services and they have the knowledge of the device that they used to stop ODO shapeshifting and could use that.

Rawr

pixelburp wrote: »

Are the Borg even known in passing conversation to have assimilated non humanoids? Notwithstanding the usual obvious point of budget n all, they seem more interested in mammalian bipeds; wonder is it a lingering genetic style memory of their original form

This is something I've wondered myself. The Borg suffer from that same TV Sci-fi trick of everyone just being human actors in makeup, I can imagine situations where non-humanoids could be assimilated by the Borg. Even though the alcoves are only designed for bi-pedal humanoids....I guess they'd adapt....

The only thing coming close to a non-standard human in the Borg I've seen is this "Advanced Borg Drone" from Star Trek: Eleet Force


Not really canon...but the only example I can think of right now.

TheValeyard

In Star Trek Online they figured out a way to assimilate Species 8742




Think they also assimilated Gorn, who are basically giant lizards.

But yeah, I'm struggling to think Canon or non Canon did the Borg assimilate anything more 'alien'


Like would they assimilate Tinman? Or those giant Jellyfish from Encounter at Farpoint.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

The Borg almost certainly contain the last remnants of hundreds, if not thousands, of other races. If you genocide the Borg you guarantee their end too.

There's also the complicating factor that at some point in the future (probably, maybe, "I hate temporal mechanics" - CPO Miles E. O'Brien circa 2371) the Borg change tactic and only steal genetic information and breed new drones from scratch.

Hugh himself proved you can come back, but Picard also showed Borg reclamation as a pet project with a long, involved and tedious process that required much time and money(?); Rather than something that could be done on par with the active Borg assimilations going on. A single active drone could destroy a planet (again, the comparison with zombies here seem apt).

The Borg is inimical to sapient life itself, because it exists merely to absorb and functionally eliminate others. It's not a path of no return to be assimilated but that opening feels like a flaw, not a design. It yields no new cultures or idea, but is an artificial construct to the extent it's debatable if the Prime Directive should apply in cases where the Borg show up in a pre-warp species' system. Don't interfere, but does that make the Borg part of that planet's natural cycle?

There are no easy answers but seems like there's at least a few "least worst" options to arrest a species' advance, that could at any point, overrun the galaxy without much resistance. Only for a few lucky breaks or one-off openings.