General Star Trek thread

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Hugh himself proved you can come back, but Picard also showed Borg reclamation as a pet project with a long, involved and tedious process that required much time and money(?); Rather than something that could be done on par with the active Borg assimilations going on. A single active drone could destroy a planet (again, the comparison with zombies here seem apt).

I never refuted the idea you could come back but if you kill all the Borg with the impossible shape there won't be anyone left to come back.

Evade

Rawr wrote: »

The only thing coming close to a non-standard human in the Borg I've seen is this "Advanced Borg Drone" from Star Trek: Eleet Force

Voyager had a few noticeably alien loking Borg in Unimatrix Zero, the episode not the place.

For some reason I can't get the MA images to show up in this post so here's links to the character pages. I can't see the one in TheValeyard's post either, could be a me issue.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Axum

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Korok_(General)

EDIT: The kids in Collective all had nose thingies too.

Unless you meant more non-humanoid features and in that case I can't think of any.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

I never refuted the idea you could come back but if you kill all the Borg with the impossible shape there won't be anyone left to come back.

Well therein lies the trick. It's an impossible decision either way so to me, for the safety of the future, those lost are best presumed gone. Rather than the Borg being endured on the promise of a few exceptions that require an inordinate amount of care or logistics to bring back, with no guarantee they won't be broken shells from the experience - and even then, it would only take a single, tiny mistake to doom the facility, or world. Like smallpox, or aforementioned zombies, the Borg seem capable of springing from the smallest nanobot. It doesn't seem like the Fed could restore lives faster than the Borg could assimilate; it would always be a losing game.

Even if you restored all of planet X, presumed lost to the Borg, the planet could never truly recover its being, or identity. They'd be ghosts, haunted by a shared living death. Would those assimilated even be able to breed? God knows it takes little in real life to arrest fertility - the assimilation likely leaving serious generational issues at best. A slow Children of Men extinction at worst.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Well therein lies the trick. It's an impossible decision either way so to me, for the safety of the future, those lost are best presumed gone.

I never said it would be easy but my parents always taught me to err on the side of not committing genocide.

pixelburp wrote: »

Even if you restored all of planet X, presumed lost to the Borg, the planet could never truly recover its being, or identity. They'd be ghosts, haunted by a shared living death. Would those assimilated even be able to breed? God knows it takes little in real life to arrest fertility - the assimilation likely leaving serious generational issues at best. A slow Children of Men extinction at worst.

They'd be no different that any other nation or planet, in this case, that faced a traumatic war or shared event. And I'm not sure recovery is an impossible task. The largest sample size of a group of drones being cut from the collective regained their former identities reasonable well. Well enough even for all the old grudges to come up.

Not being able to reproduce could be an issue but you seem like you're reaching for reasons to justify your genocide.

At the end of the day if individuals are so haunted and traumatised by their experience as a Borg they can't live with it, I wouldn't stand in the way of any action they would deem necessary to do to themselves, it's their life.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

I never said it would be easy but my parents always taught me to err on the side of not committing genocide.

Weirdly personal take for a thought experiment, it's not "my" genocide Or suggested the idea would be an easy one but the question remains whether the Borg are an entity to be endured, cured, or eradicated. The former seems utterly precarious, the middle idealistic but equally dangerous (maybe even unachievable- where would you even put the billions?), the latter definitive but plagued with aforementioned issues of morality.

I don't consider it genocide because I don't classify the Borg as a race; and wouldn't think they often are, in any conventional sense. the question of the shells milling around is ... tricky. Is killing a single Borg murder of an innocent; if we apply the dictat that each drones life has worth? Obviously the caveat applies that often the murder is defensive, but the Borg are a simple species: their actions are programmed and the same be it one, a cube or a whole conduit. So of eliminating the whole race is genocide, killing a drone would be the shooting of an innocent.

Look, if it makes you feel better, just leave the room when I press the switch ok? Then you can claim you didn't see me do it

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Weirdly personal take for a thought experiment, it's not "my" genocide

Joke.

pixelburp wrote: »

Or suggested the idea would be an easy one but the question remains whether the Borg are an entity to be endured, cured, or eradicated.

The choice is easy enough for me, following through wouldn't be. If we must, if we can, no.

pixelburp wrote: »

I don't consider it genocide because I don't classify the Borg as a race; and wouldn't think they often are, in any conventional sense. the question of the shells milling around is ... tricky. Is killing a single Borg murder of an innocent; if we apply the dictat that each drones life has worth? Obviously the caveat applies that often the murder is defensive, but the Borg are a simple species: their actions are programmed and the same be it one, a cube or a whole conduit. So of eliminating the whole race is genocide, killing a drone would be the shooting of an innocent.

You can't claim they're not a race in one sentence and then call them a species in the next. But the rest logically holds. There's a distinction between immediate danger and potential future danger. If a Borg is about to attack and you kill in self defence it's pretty easy to justify. Killing a Borg that may attack you at some point in the future is still murder.

AMKC

So regarding the Borg. Starfleet should have used the Vertaran array on Mars to attack the Borg in sector 001 when they were near Earth unless of course it had been decommissioned or shut down by then. Of course the problem with that is of course no one knew about it until Enterprise.

Stark

AMKC wrote: »

So regarding the Borg. Starfleet should have used the Vertaran array on Mars to attack the Borg in sector 001 when they were near Earth unless of course it had been decommissioned or shut down by then. Of course the problem with that is of course no one knew about it until Enterprise.

Borg probably would have adapted quickly. In "Best of both worlds" they obliterated the Mars defence perimeter in seconds.

Of course using the Vertaran array would also be dependent on Mars being on the same side of Earth as the approaching cube at the time.

Evade

Stark wrote: »

Borg probably would have adapted quickly. In "Best of both worlds" they obliterated the Mars defence perimeter in seconds.

I know budget is to blame but the Mars defence perimeter was a bit of a joke. A debris field indicating the wave we saw on screen was the last wave would have made it so much better.

AMKC

Evade wrote: »

I know budget is to blame but the Mars defence perimeter was a bit of a joke. A debris field indicating the wave we saw on screen was the last wave would have made it so much better.

Agreed. Maybe if it ever gets digitally remastered like TOS maybe they could fix that and have the Veteran array shoot it too.

Stark

Side point. I've just noticed how in sci-fi, they always seem to have the outer planets in a nice line on the side of the approaching ship as it approaches Earth Can't really miss out on those iconic Jupiter and Mars shots I suppose.

Also, I've just watched "Family" after "Best of both worlds part II" and I can't get that creepy Robert Kardashian hologram out of my head now when watching the scene between Wesley and the recording of his father.

breezy1985

Evade wrote: »

I know budget is to blame but the Mars defence perimeter was a bit of a joke. A debris field indicating the wave we saw on screen was the last wave would have made it so much better.

DS9 use it later on in an episode about a military coup because they think Earth has gone soft an over confident. The Defiant too was supposed to be part of the new line of defence

Evade

breezy1985 wrote: »

The Defiant too was supposed to be part of the new line of defence

It was supposed to be mass produced Defiant class warships escort vessels.

SFDebris has a really funny bit in one of his videos about the difference between Picard and Sisko. Paraphrasing "when the Borg hurt Picard he went home and cried in the mud, when they hurt Sisko he designed a ship class that is essential big guns strapped to an engine to kill Borg."

Evade

Stark wrote: »

Side point. I've just noticed how in sci-fi, they always seem to have the outer planets in a nice line on the side of the approaching ship as it approaches Earth Can't really miss out on those iconic Jupiter and Mars shots I suppose.

That's because the attack never happened. Starfleet superimposed the Borg cube on stock footage of the outer planet alignment from thirtyish years before (they will actually be alligned some time around the 2330s). It's all a ploy to sow doubts against medical nanotechnology. I know because my artificial spleen picks up secret Section 31 broadcasts. *adjusts duranium foil hat and vest*

AMKC

Evade wrote: »

It was supposed to be mass produced Defiant class warships escort vessels.

SFDebris has a really funny bit in one of his videos about the difference between Picard and Sisko. Paraphrasing "when the Borg hurt Picard he went home and cried in the mud, when they hurt Sisko he designed a ship class that is essential big guns strapped to an engine to kill Borg."

Sisko didn't design the Defiant do. The starfleet design engineer team did. Sisko just took one for DS9 that's all. I am sure you know all that anyway.

Stark

Evade wrote: »

That's because the attack never happened. Starfleet superimposed the Borg cube on stock footage if the outer planet alignment from thirtyish years before (they will actually be alligned some time around the 2330s). It's all a ploy to sow doubts against medical nanotechnology. I know because my artificial spleen picks up secret Section 31 broadcasts. *adjusts duranium foil hat and vest*

"Wolf 359 was an inside job".

Evade

AMKC wrote: »

Sisko didn't design the Defiant do. The starfleet design engineer team did. Sisko just took one for DS9 that's all. I am sure you know all that anyway.

He didn't do it all himself but he was a part of the design team and given his rank and first hand experience probably one of the senior designers.

There's about three years between the battle at Wolf 359 and the Cardassian withdrawal from Bajor, it's not very clear from watching the first episode of DS9, and that's what he did in that time.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Apologies if this has already been posted before...

Rawr

Also Starring LeVar Burton wrote: »

Apologies if this has already been posted before...

Horny Bastard Reptile Man is one of my favourite villains in the show. A bit better than Alcoholic Back-Stabbing Reptile Man but not as good a Jeffrey Coombs Clone No.5 (featuring ear finns).

Stark

Presume "Bisexual Fashion Lizard" is Garak

H3llR4iser

Evade wrote: »

It was supposed to be mass produced Defiant class warships escort vessels.

SFDebris has a really funny bit in one of his videos about the difference between Picard and Sisko. Paraphrasing "when the Borg hurt Picard he went home and cried in the mud, when they hurt Sisko he designed a ship class that is essential big guns strapped to an engine to kill Borg."

Didn't Q sum up that difference in just four words - "Picard never hit me!"?

breezy1985

Stark wrote: »

Presume "Bisexual Fashion Lizard" is Garak

Sounds like a Rick & Morty character like Bird Person or Reverse Giraffe

AMKC

Poor Worf. He never had look with Women he fell in love with. The Klingon Women Kaylar got stapped and Jadzia got killed by Ducat.

breezy1985

AMKC wrote: »

Poor Worf. He never had look with Women he fell in love with. The Klingon Women Kaylar got stapped and Jadzia got killed by Ducat.

And he was also a complete c**t to the 2 of them

AMKC

breezy1985 wrote: »

And he was also a complete c**t to the 2 of them

Ah he was ni worse than any other horny man. He was probably worse with Kaylar do. I do not remember him trying to get her into Sto Vo Kor but at least he did for Jadzia.

AMKC

So Sloan in section 31. How do you think they got around? I think they had developed long range transporters that could not be detected by standard sensors.

breezy1985

AMKC wrote: »

Ah he was ni worse than any other horny man. He was probably worse with Kaylar do. I do not remember him trying to get her into Sto Vo Kor but at least he did for Jadzia.

He completely slut shames Jadzia on a number of occasions. Any horny man I know would have been delighted to have Jadzia and her former hot Riza lover in bikinis but Work sees it as a reason to join the Federations version of the Proud Boys.
He is also constantly using his Klingon traditions to be a boring prudish muppet but the other Klingons we see are wild drinking horny pirates.

Kaylar kinda died in battle so I think she is good for Sto Vo Kor and also she hated Words Klingon nonsense

JayRoc

Also Starring LeVar Burton wrote: »

Apologies if this has already been posted before...

"Pope Karen"

Also Starring LeVar Burton

JayRoc wrote: »

"Pope Karen"

That was my favourite bit...

breezy1985

JayRoc wrote: »

"Pope Karen"

I would have preferred Pope Ratchet but still very good