General Star Trek thread

SarahBM

Kirby wrote: »

I hope that's tongue in cheek :P.

I liked jeri ryan and thought seven was a great character but her story was told to be honest. She got a bunch of screen time and character development. Besides, the TNG snobs would have revolted if she ended up being in a movie.

And regarding Nemesis, the problem was a director. You don't ask somebody who doesn't "get" or like trek to direct it. The story in its broad strokes is actually quite a good one....it's very trek. But it was put together poorly. That all stems from the director. A trek person would have been able to look at the screenplay and say "We need to change this and this. A buggie? Not a chance...." etc. etc.

in fairness JJ Abrams isnt a trekie, but he does know how to put a good movie together, he might have done a better job, but sure retrospect is a great thing.

Myrddin

Nerd'dom at its finest :P - http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Star-Trek-3D-Print-Face-Personal-3D-Systems,news-17011.html

SarahBM

Opinion seems to be very divided among the Trekies as regards the new film Into Darkness.

Have other Trek films divided opinions in such ways?

knucklehead6

SarahBM wrote: »

Opinion seems to be very divided among the Trekies as regards the new film Into Darkness.

Have other Trek films divided opinions in such ways?

Yep. I remember people giving out about First Contact, saying it was just a big screen 2 parter.

SarahBM

in fairness the TNG movies did have the "extended episode" feel to them sometimes. The JJ Abrams versions feel more like movies IMO

Goldstein

Thank the Gods the dope-trust were stopped bringing their lowest common denominator nonsense-fi to the small screen. At least there's hope a worthy team might produce something on the small screen worthy of the name down the road.

http://ie.ign.com/articles/2013/05/16/how-rights-issues-killed-a-new-star-trek-tv-show

IvySlayer

Well Syfy were showing TNG, watched all of season 1-4, they showed part 1 of Redemption, looking forward to part 2, Picard commanding a fleet, Data captaining, Sela etc....sitting down with my cup of tea and pack of biscuits.....they went back to season 1 *flips table*

Cossax

IvySlayer wrote: »

Well Syfy were showing TNG, watched all of season 1-4, they showed part 1 of Redemption, looking forward to part 2, Picard commanding a fleet, Data captaining, Sela etc....sitting down with my cup of tea and pack of biscuits.....they went back to season 1 *flips table*

I struggle a bit with the scale of the ST universe is set in, at times. In TNG, the two most obvious/common fleets they mentioned were the one for Redemption (23 ships cobbled together) and Wolf 359 (40 ships that constituted a massive loss to Starfleet) but by DS9 we're talking about fleets that number in the 100s and overall strength in the thousands of ships.

Myrddin

Cossax wrote: »

I struggle a bit with the scale of the ST universe is set in, at times. In TNG, the two most obvious/common fleets they mentioned were the one for Redemption (23 ships cobbled together) and Wolf 359 (40 ships that constituted a massive loss to Starfleet) but by DS9 we're talking about fleets that number in the 100s and overall strength in the thousands of ships.

Yeah the DS9 wars fleet was obviously post-Wolf 359, so was built up fairly heavily due to the Borg threat

Goldstein

Cossax wrote: »

I struggle a bit with the scale of the ST universe is set in, at times. In TNG, the two most obvious/common fleets they mentioned were the one for Redemption (23 ships cobbled together) and Wolf 359 (40 ships that constituted a massive loss to Starfleet) but by DS9 we're talking about fleets that number in the 100s and overall strength in the thousands of ships.

I think the sudden increase in Starfleet's resources in the latter stages of the Dominion war was more to do with the writers forcing the numbers to coincide with The Charge of the Light Brigade's "six hundred" than anything else.

Cookie_Monster

I'd also find it very hard to believe that wolf 359's 40 ships would be in any way a big number of ships for such a massive organisation.

Starfleet must have up around 5,000 minimum I reckon.

Cossax

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'd also find it very hard to believe that wolf 359's 40 ships would be in any way a big number of ships for such a massive organisation.

Starfleet must have up around 5,000 minimum I reckon.

600ish was two fleets mid-way through a war that the Federation was losing and there, IIRC, more than 10 fleets mentioned at various stages so we're talking 3000 ships at least.

Cookie_Monster

even if we look at fleet number, not a great measure by any means, but we are up to 745656 (voyager) at 2374, from 1701 in 2268. 73,000 ships in 106 years is a LOT. Especially if you consider the life many Miranda and Excelsior classes seem to have had. 700 ships a year roughly...

_Kaiser_

You're forgetting that not all of the ships were Federation/Starfleet though. Most of the Dominion War fleets contained Klingon ships as well, and Romulan warbirds later on too.

So out of 600 ships it might have been 400/200 or 300/200/100 - plus were the Maqui-style fighters counted separately or as part of a larger vessel? 100 ships could easy be accounted for by fighters if the former.

Dude111

Isnt it quite interesting if ya think about it??

WE DONT KNOW IF SUCH THINGS REALLY DO EXIST OUT THERE IN THE VASTNESS OF SPACE!!!!! (There may be an NCC-1701 (Original) out there)

helimachoptor

Also not all ships are galaxy class, i'm sure those fighters use to pepper the Cardis are classed as ships in their own right and i'm sure a fair few of them met their makers through the way

Goldstein

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You're forgetting that not all of the ships were Federation/Starfleet though. Most of the Dominion War fleets contained Klingon ships as well, and Romulan warbirds later on too.

So out of 600 ships it might have been 400/200 or 300/200/100 - plus were the Maqui-style fighters counted separately or as part of a larger vessel? 100 ships could easy be accounted for by fighters if the former.

The 600 were all Starfleet alright. It was operation Return from Sacrifice of Angels, before the Klingons showed up.

I like the idea of a much smaller number of Starfleet ships like we had in TNG, it makes each one far more important and indispensable. Earth is about to be destroyed and 40 ships was "every available ship" that could be mustered to defend it within a couple of days. So you're probably talking 100 or so in total pre-Wolf 359. Even in wartime Starfleet suddenly having 1000s of ships seems silly. It'd be like the US suddenly manufacturing 100s of active aircraft carriers in a few years. I'd like any future series to go back to a smaller fleet size but for us to get to know some of the vessels within that fleet and have them pop up more than once and get familiar with some different crews, the ships' different features and capabilities etc.

Cookie_Monster

well also bare in mind that they would have had ships and warships. It's documented that there are at least Miranda's without weapons, defensive only and you'd certainly class Hope class and Nova class in the same non combat bracket.

The US comparison is good actually I think

As of 2011, the navy operates 285 ships, 3,700 aircraft, 50,000 non-combat vehicles and owns 75,200 buildings on 3,300,000 acres (13,000 km2)

If you consider ships to be capital ships, aircraft as combat craft and the 50k non com as general ships, shuttles and runabouts and inflate it from 1 country to 150 plus planets you are in reality talking about an absolutely gigantic fleet, 5,000+ warp capable star ships doesn't seem unreasonable

The TNG fleets I always found a bit silly being so small.

Myrddin

Goldstein wrote: »

The 600 were all Starfleet alright. It was operation Return from Sacrifice of Angels, before the Klingons showed up.

I thought the allied fleet were two to one outnumbered, with the Dominion having 1200 ships? Bear in mind the Romulans had a presence there too. I don't think all 600 ships were Starfleet ones

helimachoptor

EnterNow wrote: »

I thought the allied fleet were two to one outnumbered, with the Dominion having 1200 ships? Bear in mind the Romulans had a presence there too. I don't think all 600 ships were Starfleet ones

Was no mention of th romulans and in the station shots there are no warbirds present its all federtion ships.

You're correct on the numbers though 1200 ships, 2:1 outnumbered

helimachoptor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The TNG fleets I always found a bit silly being so small.

I think it was mainly due to the CGI limitations of having so many of them on screen at once

norrie rugger

They only had a set amount of models in TNG also. Come the CGI age they were able to create new ship types easily

knucklehead6

Goldstein wrote: »

The 600 were all Starfleet alright. It was operation Return from Sacrifice of Angels, before the Klingons showed up.

I like the idea of a much smaller number of Starfleet ships like we had in TNG, it makes each one far more important and indispensable. Earth is about to be destroyed and 40 ships was "every available ship" that could be mustered to defend it within a couple of days. So you're probably talking 100 or so in total pre-Wolf 359. Even in wartime Starfleet suddenly having 1000s of ships seems silly. It'd be like the US suddenly manufacturing 100s of active aircraft carriers in a few years. I'd like any future series to go back to a smaller fleet size but for us to get to know some of the vessels within that fleet and have them pop up more than once and get familiar with some different crews, the ships' different features and capabilities etc.

The US Navy started off WW2 with 8 Carriers in service, Langley, Lexington, Saratoga, Ranger, Yorktown, Enterprise, Wasp and Hornet, CV1 to CV8

Between December 1941 and December 1942 5 of those 8 were lost in action.

By August 1945 there had been 151 Aircraft Carriers built in America.

Not all were fleet carriers, but in a few years they manufactured 151 of them. Add to that battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers, Convoy escorts and submarines and you get a total of 1179 ships...NOT including merchantmen.

The fleet size during TNG era was disproportionately small in my opinion.

Daith

I thought some of the ships were remote controlled too? I mean yeah Starfleet could mass produce ships but did all their non-combant people get a crash course in war tactics?

helimachoptor

Daith wrote: »

I thought some of the ships were remote controlled too? I mean yeah Starfleet could mass produce ships but did all their non-combant people get a crash course in war tactics?

You dont need to educate everyone, if you are on a ship only the officers that would be directly engaged in the fight would need proper tactical training.
i.e. your science dept heads would probably do a few modules at the academy on military tactics.

word/Riker/Data and probably Geordie and Wes would probably do a fair bit.

Everyone else just needs to do their job, they dont need to worry about the manoeuvres the ship is doing

helimachoptor

I think your biggest issue in an interstellar war is not being able to replace the ships, I would imagine that the technology to build them makes everything pretty modular similar to how ships are done now and they'd be just rolling off the assembly lines.


You're biggest challenge would be having ability to replace the skills of the people who have died, not eveyone can calibrate a warp core or re-align the flux capacitor eventually the brain drain due to death will lead to people taking up positions that they dont have the skills for.

Myrddin

helimachoptor wrote: »

You're biggest challenge would be having ability to replace the skills of the people who have died, not eveyone can calibrate a warp core or re-align the flux capacitor eventually the brain drain due to death will lead to people taking up positions that they dont have the skills for.

Good point, possibly why Nog made Lieutenant so fast? In Season 4 he's asking Sisko to sponsor him for Red Squad, in Season 5 he's made ensign, & at the end of Season 7 he's a Lieutenant.

helimachoptor

Your best analogy for that is the guy from Homeland when he was in BoB look how quickly a field officer gets promoted past the Major (Schwimmer) who trained him purely because he's in the field and so many people are dying

Cookie_Monster

helimachoptor wrote: »

I think it was mainly due to the CGI limitations of having so many of them on screen at once

norrie rugger wrote: »

They only had a set amount of models in TNG also. Come the CGI age they were able to create new ship types easily

True, I get the technical reasons why it was so for the most part, but the likes of the Romulan picket line (TNG:Redemption) in particular makes little sense when the border is so big and the fleet task force so small

Cossax

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

True, I get the technical reasons why it was so for the most part, but the likes of the Romulan picket line (TNG:Redemption) in particular makes little sense when the border is so big and the fleet task force so small

They could mobilise 23 ships for that IIRC, half the number they could get together to stop a deadly enemy on their way to Earth. Seems rather odd that you could get together such a relatively large fleet on the periphery of an ally's territory in such a short time v putting together a last line of defence for Earth in the core of the Federation.

Curiously, I think Ru'afo couldn't have been more wrong about the Federation and the 'scent of death' upon it - though they lost plenty of men and ships during the conflicts, the Federation is significantly stronger by the end of DS9 than it was at the start of TNG. The growth in the fleet, the advancement of technology (everything from the pulse cannons on the Defiant to the Prometheus, ablative armour to transphasic torpedoes and astrometrics improvements), the replacement/destruction of the older and underpowered ships, gaining combat experience and the relative decline and destruction of the Klingon and Cardassian Empires, presumably sanctions or surrender terms for the Breen and the damage done to the Romulans (who seemed to suffer disproportionately - late entrants needing hospital ships from the first entrant, their flagship's destruction and collapsing lines during the final assault on Cardassia).