General Star Trek thread

IvySlayer

Even Sisko himself struggled to do it as it was Garak who blew the Romulan shuttle up

Arguably Sisko was just doing what he thought was going to happen anyway and it was better for the Federation and Romulus if they entered the war

Kiith

Oh i agree, and as Sisko said, it may have saved the entire Alpha Quadrant.

But as Garak said, Sisko went to him because he knew he'd do what needed to be done, regardless of the ethics of it. I just wonder if Picard would have even considered making a forgery in the first place.

Myrddin

Kiith wrote: »

Oh i agree, and as Sisko said, it may have saved the entire Alpha Quadrant.

But as Garak said, Sisko went to him because he knew he'd do what needed to be done, regardless of the ethics of it. I just wonder if Picard would have even considered making a forgery in the first place.

Upon first glance I'd say no. But thinking more about it, we only ever got to see Picard in the happy go lucky pre-dominion war era {ok it had its moments, Borg/Cardassian torture maniacs etc}, but in general, Picard didn't have to sit by & witness thousands of people killed week after week.

Then to further pick at it, isn't Picard the one who had to have his arm twisted in order to not wipe out the entire Borg race? It's a really interesting question actually, would he have done as Sisko did...personally I think he just might have...

TheIrishGrover

I think he would have but I think the episode would have been about him actually weighing the moral ramifications of doing it. Lots of hand-wringing and conversations with Troi, Riker and Crusher.

Sisco just thinks "Nasty piece of work? Of course. Needs to be done. Moral right? Cry me a river. People are dying. Do it now and sue me!"

_Kaiser_

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Sisco just thinks "Nasty piece of work? Of course. Needs to be done. Moral right? Cry me a river. People are dying. Do it now and sue me!"

If I recall right, Starfleet backs the play as well anyway when Betazed is invaded so in the end it wasn't just his call.

Daith

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

If I recall right, Starfleet backs the play as well anyway when Betazed is invaded so in the end it wasn't just his call.

They backed the original plan of the false recording not sure about covering up a murder. Then again the same thing kinda happens again with Section 31 and Admiral Ross helping to remove Cretak from her position and moving their agent into it,.

Myrddin

Daith wrote: »

They backed the original plan of the false recording not sure about covering up a murder. Then again the same thing kinda happens again with Section 31 and Admiral Ross helping to remove Cretak from her position and moving their agent into it,.

Starfleet hold responsibility too, despite the murder cover up. To try & convict anyone would have meant exposing the plan, & thus actually alienating the Romulans

downwithpeace

Daith wrote: »

They backed the original plan of the false recording not sure about covering up a murder. Then again the same thing kinda happens again with Section 31 and Admiral Ross helping to remove Cretak from her position and moving their agent into it,.

Garak played it his own way with the murders, covering his tracks and as backup plan. I don't recall if Sisko left Starfleet know about those but he did erase his log.

helimachoptor

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

If I recall right, Starfleet backs the play as well anyway when Betazed is invaded so in the end it wasn't just his call.

Always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission..

After the fact it was done, so they couldnt do anything about it even if they wanted to

Daith

Myrddin wrote: »

Starfleet hold responsibility too, despite the murder cover up. To try & convict anyone would have meant exposing the plan, & thus actually alienating the Romulans

They didn't know that Garak did the killing or that Sisko was involved with a cover up.

Myrddin

Daith wrote: »

They didn't know that Garak did the killing or that Sisko was involved with a cover up.

And Sisko knew about the killing beforehand? No obviously not, but Starfleet got the result they wanted all along, & I suspect they too could 'live with it' as Sisko said he could. Would you have had Sisko tell the Galaxy once he found out about the murder?

Ronanc1

All this talk of "In the pale moonlight" is making me itch to put this up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTgGtJ-PisA

Kiith

I sometimes forgot how fantastic that episode was. The dialogue and acting was absolutely perfect.

Kiith

Slightly off the above topic, but as i was reading through the Wiki page on 'In the Pale Moonlight', i ended up looking at the non canon entry for the Battle of Betazed novel...where Diana Troy leads the resistance and liberates her home planet. Troy...leads the resistance.

I guess that's why it's not canon :pac:

helimachoptor

I read a couple of the non canon books, i just found them very hard to engage with

norrie rugger

Problem is with the fact that people want to continue to read about the characters that they have watched on screen.
Authors are slowly introducing new characters, to flesh the books out.

There are some great authors there though and some great stories. There is plenty of tripe too, so I guess it is like anything in that you do your research beforehand

knucklehead6

some of the non canon literature I've read is totally fan boyish though... Embarrassingly so.

i have vague memories of reading one (TOS Timeframe) where a couple of K't'inga's got destroyed and good ol' Jim and the Enterprise came up against the same attacker and pretty much wiped the floor with it.

Kiith

I 'discovered' last night that the intro music for The Next Generation, is just a rearrangement of the original movies theme.

How the hell am i only realising this now :eek:

Dude111

Wow I didnt realise that!!!! (I guess it is now that I think about it)

IvySlayer

Time's Arrow the worst 2 parter in TNG?

Always hated those episodes

Daith

helimachoptor wrote: »

I read a couple of the non canon books, i just found them very hard to engage with

I read some of the DS9 relaunch books. I detest the character of Elias Vaughan. He just completely destroys the books for me.

_Kaiser_

Haven't read any Trek books in years but I remember being very fond of Peter David's TNG books - the Troi/Riker backstory, Vendetta, the one with Q/Trelane etc.

Diane Duane's TNG Mirror Universe one was excellent too and in many ways a lot better to the DS9/canon version IMO

IvySlayer

Daith wrote: »

I read some of the DS9 relaunch books. I detest the character of Elias Vaughan. He just completely destroys the books for me.

I looked him up on Memory Beta, yup, he has met nearly every character in the canon world, including using Orbs and having visions and meeting Benny Russell

Some of that stuff is just plagiarism.

Daith

IvySlayer wrote: »

I looked him up on Memory Beta, yup, he has met nearly every character in the canon world, including using Orbs and having visions and meeting Benny Russell

Some of that stuff is just plagiarism.

He punches Sisko!

Actually I think one of the writers said that he was the Star Trek equivalent of Gandalf which really didn't help matters.

Myrddin

Just finished watching Trekkies 2 on Netflix there, some people really do go too far...

IvySlayer

Coming up to Season 6/7 of DS9 on Syfy, it does dip in quality imo

Battle scenes are nice to watch but I've never been comfortable with the war storyline. There's 'Far Beyond the Stars', I do not like this episode at all, what does it add? Why did the prophets give him this vision? Why do we need a story about racism? Everyone raves about it, nothing to do with Star Trek though.

Then there's Vic Fontaine......and that episode where Sisko throws a tantrum about Vic Fontaines establishment treatment of black people back in 50s/60s....wtf like...More racism plots....WHY? His reaction makes no sense....They had to have Fontaine winning Sisko over to show great he is.

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

Why do we need a story about racism? Everyone raves about it, nothing to do with Star Trek though.

Strictly speaking, racism & similar issues are everything to do with Star Trek But yeah, this episode doesn't focus on established characters, events, or in fact anything at all going in in DS9...it is one of those 'deep' episodes that has relevance later on for Sisko & the Wraith/Prohpets battle

Then there's Vic Fontaine......and that episode where Sisko throws a tantrum about Vic Fontaines establishment treatment of black people back in 50s/60s....wtf like...More racism plots....WHY? His reaction makes no sense....They had to have Fontaine winning Sisko over to show great he is.

I think I must be the only fan of Vic Fontaine in all of Trek fandom Sisko's reaction seemed to me, to serve to point out & remind us that such issues are a thing of the past in the 24th century. Yeah it seemed out of place somewhat, but again, racism is something Trek has took by the horns since the 60's

Optimus Prime

I wonder how much influence Avery Brooks had in those later episodes? Has anyone watched "the captains" ? the guy is a fruit loop.

IvySlayer

Myrddin wrote: »

Strictly speaking, racism & similar issues are everything to do with Star Trek But yeah, this episode doesn't focus on established characters, events, or in fact anything at all going in in DS9...it is one of those 'deep' episodes that has relevance later on for Sisko & the Wraith/Prohpets battle



I think I must be the only fan of Vic Fontaine in all of Trek fandom Sisko's reaction seemed to me, to serve to point out & remind us that such issues are a thing of the past in the 24th century. Yeah it seemed out of place somewhat, but again, racism is something Trek has took by the horns since the 60's

It was a very specific notion of racism that has never been seen in the Federation. Sisko getting pissed about something that happened 400 years ago is just stupid. He loves baseball and plays it on the holodeck, baseball had its fair share amount of racism.

It may of been 'deep' but it served no purpose whatsoever and it was a **** episode. It's consistently rated as one of the best DS9 episodes ever..

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

It was a very specific notion of racism that has never been seen in the Federation. Sisko getting pissed about something that happened 400 years ago is just stupid.

I dunno, Sisko seemed to me to be a bit of an 'African-aficionado', remember when he took a load of old African artifacts out of storage to decorate his quarters? I think it's just something he was really into, & it came through when talking about the Fontain-era of racism & discrimination.

He loves baseball and plays it on the holodeck, baseball had its fair share amount of racism.

And yet it didn't stop the likes of Larry Doby & Ernie Banks Sisko would probably consider them heroes of the game, & likes to emulate his heroes. I don't think you can directly compare his love of baseball, to his view on a fantasy-scenario on a holodeck...

It may of been 'deep' but it served no purpose whatsoever and it was a **** episode. It's consistently rated as one of the best DS9 episodes ever..

It did serve a purpose though It was around this time that Sisko was thinking of leaving Starfleet, which would have radically altered the outcome of the war between not only the Dominion & the Federation, but between the Wraith & the Prophets. The Prophets wanted to Sisko to fight through his troubles, & not give up...exactly what Benny Russell did It transpires later on when the visions return in a later episode, that Sisko again through Benny, battles through overwhelming pressure to continue on the fight, which is mirrored directly in the real world