General Star Trek thread

IvySlayer

Nog really should've kicked arse instead of wetting himself at the thought of joining Red Squad.

An Ensign, an actual officer will always outrank any cadets.

Sisko, Kira or Worf would've punched Watters in the face and turned the ship around

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

Nog really should've kicked arse instead of wetting himself at the thought of joining Red Squad.

An Ensign, an actual officer will always outrank any cadets.

Sisko, Kira or Worf would've punched Watters in the face and turned the ship around

The cadet 'captain', was given a field promotion by the actual Captain of the Valiant before he died, & that cadet, then promoted & field commissioned the other members of Red Squad where necessary. So on paper at least, they did outrank Nog

IvySlayer

Myrddin wrote: »

The cadet 'captain', was given a field promotion by the actual Captain of the Valiant before he died, & that cadet, then promoted & field commissioned the other members of Red Squad where necessary. So on paper at least, they did outrank Nog

The Captain died, so you could argue his orders were invalid. Why isn't Nog still a Lieutenant Commander? At what point did his field promotion end?

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

The Captain died, so you could argue his orders were invalid. Why isn't Nog still a Lieutenant Commander? At what point did his field promotion end?

The Captain giving the cadet a field commission isn't invalid just because he died, if that were the case...every time some Admiral died all his previous orders would have to be reissued. It was within the captains discretion to do what he did, the ship would have been left without a command structure otherwise, so he had little choice. The spirit of the decision would have been to get the ship home though, not to take it into battle.

Regards Nog, he'd have been demoted back to Ensign by Sisko I imagine. Remember when Riker was promoted to Captain when Picard was thought lost to the Borg? When Picard was rescued, there was no problem with Riker being demoted back to Commander.

knucklehead6

Myrddin wrote: »

The Captain giving the cadet a field commission isn't invalid just because he died, if that were the case...every time some Admiral died all his previous orders would have to be reissued. It was within the captains discretion to do what he did, the ship would have been left without a command structure otherwise, so he had little choice. The spirit of the decision would have been to get the ship home though, not to take it into battle.

Regards Nog, he'd have been demoted back to Ensign by Sisko I imagine. Remember when Riker was promoted to Captain when Picard was thought lost to the Borg? When Picard was rescued, there was no problem with Riker being demoted back to Commander.

which was always a great big gaping issue i had with those 3 episodes....

Surely, as the captain of the ship that had just managed to defeat the borg, Riker deserved his own command. Yes I know that 40 ships had been lost and i know that the fleet seemed a lot smaller then too, but surely Riker deserved a command.

Myrddin

knucklehead6 wrote: »

which was always a great big gaping issue i had with those 3 episodes....

Surely, as the captain of the ship that had just managed to defeat the borg, Riker deserved his own command. Yes I know that 40 ships had been lost and i know that the fleet seemed a lot smaller then too, but surely Riker deserved a command.

I'm not up on naval protocol there, perhaps there isn't even one for these examples, but at the end of the day I'm sure if Riker had chosen to remain captain, & wanted to move off the Enterprise, it wouldn't have been an issue. Riker chose to stay. Not that Nog's demotion would have been the same choice, there would have been no choice at all there...& in fact, Nog even stated he wasn't ready for that rank when it was given to him. Perhaps the battlefield commission given to the Cadet, didn't give him the authority to commission other members of the crew, & as such, Nog's promotion was invalid?

ForstalDave

knucklehead6 wrote: »

which was always a great big gaping issue i had with those 3 episodes....

Surely, as the captain of the ship that had just managed to defeat the borg, Riker deserved his own command. Yes I know that 40 ships had been lost and i know that the fleet seemed a lot smaller then too, but surely Riker deserved a command.

I believe Riker turned down a number of offers of his own ship, he as happy being first officer

norrie rugger

Happy being XO on Enterprise.
Believed that being captain on a nothing ship would be a step down

IvySlayer

I don't think Riker would've left Captain Picard after his traumatic experience. He got too comfortable for a while, then the Pegasus incident set him back.

Does Riker not get too much credit as it was Data who did most of the work destroying the Borg :P

helimachoptor

Battlefield commissions are just that, commissions due to war time, now in practice most of these end up permanent but ultimately they are only there for the duration of the "battle".

I'm a big reader of military books and this happens quite a lot, there was a guy in the Marines during the invasion of Guadalcanal (i think). of say the 50 men in his platoon, the LT and senior NCOs were all killed injured and because of the battle they couldnt spare anyone so he was given a battlefield commission of LT even though he had been just a Corporal.

He got to keep the promotion once the Island was taken, but it could have easily been reversed.

helimachoptor

IvySlayer wrote: »

I don't think Riker would've left Captain Picard after his traumatic experience. He got too comfortable for a while, then the Pegasus incident set him back.

Does Riker not get too much credit as it was Data who did most of the work destroying the Borg :P

Last nights Ep was the one where work is shifting realities, honestly red is a lot better on him than yellow, also the Enterprise thats in the universe where the Borg are everywhere, epic bears on Worf and Riker!

knucklehead6

The point is i think Riker would have been NEEDED for a command of his own given the casualty list.

It's kind of logical to assume ship production was ramped up after the battle of Wolf 359 given losing 40 ships was such a huge loss and yet there was a fleet in excess of 600 federation ships in the battle to retake DS9, and that was not the climatic battle of the dominion war.

As a proven XO, and as a proven battlefield commander, as a proven ship commander he should have been dragged kicking and screaming off the Enterprise.

ForstalDave

knucklehead6 wrote: »

The point is i think Riker would have been NEEDED for a command of his own given the casualty list.

It's kind of logical to assume ship production was ramped up after the battle of Wolf 359 given losing 40 ships was such a huge loss and yet there was a fleet in excess of 600 federation ships in the battle to retake DS9, and that was not the climatic battle of the dominion war.

As a proven XO, and as a proven battlefield commander, as a proven ship commander he should have been dragged kicking and screaming off the Enterprise.

You have to remember Riker had a few blacks marks on his record as well, well a very good XO and a fine officer he had made mistakes and it was probably felt forcing him into a captaincy he didn't want would be a mistake

knucklehead6

helimachoptor wrote: »

Last nights Ep was the one where work is shifting realities, honestly red is a lot better on him than yellow, also the Enterprise thats in the universe where the Borg are everywhere, epic bears on Worf and Riker!

I liked that episode....

Always thought Rikers line to Picard "Good to see you again" was well delivered

IvySlayer

helimachoptor wrote: »

Last nights Ep was the one where work is shifting realities, honestly red is a lot better on him than yellow, also the Enterprise thats in the universe where the Borg are everywhere, epic bears on Worf and Riker!

The Federation's gone, Rikers beard is everywhere!

ForstalDave

IvySlayer wrote: »

The Federation's gone, Rikers beard is everywhere!

And beard rash is the scourge of women across the universe

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

http://scrolldowntoriker.com/

already linked here, but it's probably never been as relevant

LeinsterDub

Probably been asked before but how and why do large scale battles happen. Space is 3 dyminsional why couldn't the borg fly around 359 or when sisko needs to stop the mine from coming down they keep trying to "punch a hole" why?

norrie rugger

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Probably been asked before but how and why do large scale battles happen. Space is 3 dyminsional why couldn't the borg fly around 359 or when sisko needs to stop the mine from coming down they keep trying to "punch a hole" why?

Goldstein

Re-watched Hope and Fear yesterday. Really enjoyable ep! The Dauntless was such a class ship, real or not! Come to think of it where the hell was Chakotay?

Goldstein

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Probably been asked before but how and why do large scale battles happen. Space is 3 dyminsional why couldn't the borg fly around 359 or when sisko needs to stop the mine from coming down they keep trying to "punch a hole" why?

Large scale battles make sense. Sooner or later fleets of ships will have to fight each other. Tactics play a pivotal part when you're dealing with large numbers - deciding when and where to concentrate your firepower, deploy and safeguard your various assets.

On the 3 dimensions you're right, it's nonsense. But we love it anyway. Star Trek always thought of space as 2D or at best 2D with a z axis a few kilometers high. Rather than viewing it with a critical eye though it should be thought of as an oportunity for a new Star Trek show to embrace.

norrie rugger

Goldstein wrote: »

Re-watched Hope and Fear yesterday. Really enjoyable ep! The Dauntless was such a class ship, real or not! Come to think of it where the hell was Chakotay?

Great episode that finally shows how much of a twat that Jayneway was. Did she honestly think that her actions would have no consequences?

Kirby

norrie rugger wrote: »

Great episode that finally shows how much of a twat that Jayneway was. Did she honestly think that her actions would have no consequences?

I think she knew the consequences....she just didn't care at that point. Chakotay voiced the moral objections of the audience when the deal with the borg happened.

That was one of the best running themes of the show though. They only ended up stuck in the middle of nowhere because Janeway put the wellbeing of a small race of people she didn't even know, above her own crew....and then she spent the next 7 seasons doing the same thing again and again and getting more frustrated every time. Making deals with the borg was really the first time that she put the needs of her crew above what might happen to anybody else.

In the very next episode after "Hope and Fear", she even says that the crew has sacrificed enough and she isn't willing to let them sacrifice anymore to save another group of random aliens they don't know.....the dark guys being poisoned if I recall.

It was one of the more interesting aspects when they run into Captain Randsom and the Equinox. He was the extreme version of Janeway. He was killing left, right and centre to get home.....consequences be damned. At least Janeway wrestled with the morality a little when she did it.

norrie rugger

A deal which would knowingly cause billions of deaths, including any earth attack.
She interfered in a war that did not involve the federation, that Borg started.

For this Ransom gets taken and she get promoted?
I could not see Picard or Sisco do that. I just always hated Jayneway's punch through attitude

SarahBM

In fairness though, Picard and Sisko were never in the same situation as Janeway. She had no starfleet hq to give her orders or to report to or get advice from. She was ultimately in charge and she had to do what she thought was right for her crew, and in some cases she put others ahead of them. Picard or Sisko might have done the same, or handled it completely different. Who knows.

helimachoptor

norrie rugger wrote: »

A deal which would knowingly cause billions of deaths, including any earth attack.
She interfered in a war that did not involve the federation, that Borg started.

For this Ransom gets taken and she get promoted?
I could not see Picard or Sisco do that. I just always hated Jayneway's punch through attitude

SarahBM wrote: »

In fairness though, Picard and Sisko were never in the same situation as Janeway. She had no starfleet hq to give her orders or to report to or get advice from. She was ultimately in charge and she had to do what she thought was right for her crew, and in some cases she put others ahead of them. Picard or Sisko might have done the same, or handled it completely different. Who knows.

Picard.. through the use of Hugh was going to completely wipe out the Borg (ok he didnt go through with it but was damn close)

Sisko.. knowingly tricked the Romulans into engaging in the war and while ultimately saving lives, it did directly cos the Romulans lives

Cookie_Monster

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Probably been asked before but how and why do large scale battles happen. Space is 3 dyminsional why couldn't the borg fly around 359 or when sisko needs to stop the mine from coming down they keep trying to "punch a hole" why?

Another great part of the final episode of TNG, where the future enterprise comes straight up through the Klingon cruiser

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0R0mdEP5fc

skip to the 2 min mark

IvySlayer

Thine Own Self

Troi gets promoted to Commander because she passed the Bridge Officers Test, why was Data never promoted during the entire series? Data was second officer!

What is the point of her getting promoted anyway, Commanders are usually reserved for First Officers, Lieutenant Commander for department heads

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

Thine Own Self

Troi gets promoted to Commander because she passed the Bridge Officers Test, why was Data never promoted during the entire series? Data was second officer!

What is the point of her getting promoted anyway, Commanders are usually reserved for First Officers, Lieutenant Commander for department heads

It's something I've wondered myself re Data. The only thing I can think of, is that as 2nd officer, Data was part of the command structure of the Enterprise. To promote him, would have meant he equaled Riker in rank, & in the chain of command, that could have complicated things.

I'd imagine, if promotion was indeed offered to Data, it would have meant moving to another ship as first officer, though that was never explored, presumably as Riker was in the exact same position.

Re Troi, I think it's fine being promoted to Commander, as she wasn't part of the command structure, therefore no conflict. In a crunch, Data would still outrank her being a rank below her as he was 2nd officer {I think!}. Troi did it for herself, after discussing it with Crusher & why she took the tests on.

Goodshape

Perhaps a testiment to Data's lack of ego and ambition. He neither wanted nor needed a promotion.

Not sure there'd be an issue around clashing-ranks with Riker. The 1701-A had three captains on board at one point – Kirk, Spock and Scotty. Everyone knew their place.

Troi did want a promotion, though. Isn't the point raised in the episode that she's doing this to prove that she can? Beverly also hold the rank of Commander.