General Star Trek thread

Myrddin

^^ You need to stop watching those mirror universe eps dude & start watching the regular time line...y'know the one where Picard & co teach us all about the human condition?

Kirby

SarahBM wrote: »

Referring to idealism, I definitely prefer Rodenberry's vision of the future. I cannot stand all the dystopian crap that's on tv now. Especially shows like the walking dead etc. I prefer to think the better of people and society which is why I prefer Trek to other sci fi things set in the future.

While that is great to aspire to.....it's just not how people are. People are nice and generous when they are fed and happy. Take away their comforts, and they are vile assholes. Thats just nature. The terrible stuff we see in the dystopian futures we create is how people really would behave.

Quark said it best. I know everyone knows this clip but it's so bloody spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D2SHNqkjbY

dr.fuzzenstein

Myrddin wrote: »

^^ You need to stop watching those mirror universe eps dude & start watching the regular time line...y'know the one where Picard & co teach us all about the human condition?

TNG is something people should aspire to. We all like to watch dirty, violent SciFi, but every now and then it's worth while to see a positive example. Picard had some absolutely exceptional speeches, my favourite is from the episode Justice:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]PICARD: I don't know how to communicate this, or even if it is possible, but the question of justice has concerned me greatly of lately. And I say to any creature who may be listening, there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions.
RIKER: When has justice ever been as simple as a rulebook?

It's funny how hostile a lot of people are to idealistic visions of the future, like we are attracted to the darkness and the primitive and any vision of a possibly better future offends us, but to me Q has it spot on when he calls us a dangerous, savage child-race. Sadly, given the pace of evolution, this won't change for the next 100000 years or so.
[/FONT]

Greyjoy

Kirby wrote: »

While that is great to aspire to.....it's just not how people are. People are nice and generous when they are fed and happy. Take away their comforts, and they are vile assholes. Thats just nature. The terrible stuff we see in the dystopian futures we create is how people really would behave.

Except that dystopian vision of everyone turning on each other is basically a cliche that the entertainment industry has fed us over the years. When you see news footage of natural disasters or terrorist attacks the response from people nearby isn't to suddenly go "Lord of the Flies" - you see them rushing to help each other. That's not to say there won't be assholes exploiting the situation but humanity as a species has survived by helping each other.

But on the other hand I do think Roddenberry's vision of the future was actually too optimistic. It wasn't balanced enough. Gene would frustrate the writers of TNG by insisting that there couldn't be any conflict between the crew members which would have made for much more boring stories.

Myrddin

Picard was exceptional throughout the series, and truly, a character everyone should aspire to. Sure, he had a moment with the Borg, but shone through regardless. His speeches about equal rights, diplomacy, justice, peace, and tolerance are really fantastic. In "The Measure of a Man" he was exceptional.

Beefy78

Al Capwned wrote: »

DS9 > BSG > SG1 > TNG > VOY > Atlantis > ENT > SGU > TOS > Caprica

helimachoptor wrote: »

TNG> DS9 > SG1 > BSG > TOS > ENT > SGU > SGA > TOS > Caprica

Was Caprica that bad? I only watched the first couple of episodes but I quite liked it.

knucklehead6

helimachoptor wrote: »

tbh i think its more a case he came in a guest star, worked the irish charm and then they wanted to keep him around.

The Rutledge one is a bit weird, even ignoring the rank stuff, why would anyone go from tactical officer on a fairly decent ship (nebula class was no slouch) to transporter chief on the flagship, i wouldnt do it

New Orleans Class, no?

Think so, Maxwell's new ship was a Nebula?

Myrddin

Myrddin wrote: »

^^ You need to stop watching those mirror universe eps dude & start watching the regular time line...y'know the one where Picard & co teach us all about the human condition?

Like Tasha's home world?

knucklehead6

Deleted User wrote: »

Think so, Maxwell's new ship was a Nebula?

Yeah, the Phoenix was a nebula class.

And it'd be (kind of) understandable for a Chief Petty officer to be tacco on a smaller ship.

Myrddin

Deleted User wrote: »

Like Tasha's home world?

Not a Federation world, it was a non aligned planet. The point I'm arguing is that in no way was the Federation depicted as a 'dark' place to live in, outside of mirror/alternate reality eps.

Indricotherium

For what it's worth, my top ten Sci Fi shows:

Quantum Leap > SG1 > Sliders > Mysterious Cities of Gold > Space, above and beyond > ST DS9 > The Outer Limits > Utopia > ST VOY > ST TnG

This is just off the top of my head. I have probably left something out.

I thought for a while about whether I prefer Voyager or TnG.

I think Voyager, despite having less interesting characters, and less of a realised background, has better episodes. There are very few TnG episodes that stand up to watching more than once, even from an entertainment point of view. There are loads of good Voyager episodes. TnG really picks up towards the end, but the early series are dreadful.

Neither of them hold a candle to DS9 in my opinion.

Indricotherium

Myrddin wrote: »

Not a Federation world, it was a non aligned planet. The point I'm arguing is that in no way was the Federation depicted as a 'dark' place to live in, outside of mirror/alternate reality eps.

A non aligned planet in the middle of their territory.

Warp capable. No Prime directive issue here.

Why doesn't the Federation step in here? Seems like there is no government to speak of here, or if there is one it doesn't seem to be protecting basic human rights of the majority of its citizens.

It must not have any resources.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

A non aligned planet in the middle of their territory.

Non-aligned none the less. The Federation if we're to believe what you make them out to be, should surely disregard the non alligned status & annex the planet regardless no? I wonder why it is they don't...oh yeah, because it's not what you make it out to be

Warp capable. No Prime directive issue here.

I think you need to brush up on what the prime directive is dude. There absolutely is a prime directive issue here, warp capable or not.

Why doesn't the Federation step in here? Seems like there is no government to speak of here, or if there is one it doesn't seem to be protecting basic human rights of the majority of its citizens.

Because it's regarded as a sovereign planet, the prime directive forbids interference. Of course, the prime directive has down sides such as this.

It must not have any resources.

Because most Federation worlds are rich in resources? Nope, not all of them. It's not a resource thing...it's a prime directive thing.

Kirby

Greyjoy wrote: »

Except that dystopian vision of everyone turning on each other is basically a cliche that the entertainment industry has fed us over the years. When you see news footage of natural disasters or terrorist attacks the response from people nearby isn't to suddenly go "Lord of the Flies" - you see them rushing to help each other. That's not to say there won't be assholes exploiting the situation but humanity as a species has survived by helping each other.

Absolutely. But those people rushing to help have eaten that day. They have warm clothes and cars and jobs and wifi. Because thats modern life. So when we see a disaster our natural instinct is to help.....because we have it so easy. And we donate food and clothes to charities because we have more.

But if we were starving and naked for years not only would we not help those in trouble, we would be first inline to steal their stuff.

It's not a cliche. You only have to visit some places in the world to see it first hand, today. Imagine how much worse it would be worldwide if there was a disaster.

Indricotherium

Myrddin wrote: »

Because most Federation worlds are rich in resources? Nope, not all of them. It's not a resource thing...it's a prime directive thing.

From memory alpha:

"Lawlessness became the norm, and rape gangs became a common threat. For some of the citizens, drugs became an escape from the poverty and violence that they had to face every day. Few citizens escaped the planet."

Further, the legitimate government of the planet was overthrown by "factions".

There is absolutely no reason for the Federation not to step in here. I can only surmise that it is not worthwhile invading.

Indricotherium

Greyjoy wrote: »

Except that dystopian vision of everyone turning on each other is basically a cliche that the entertainment industry has fed us over the years. When you see news footage of natural disasters or terrorist attacks the response from people nearby isn't to suddenly go "Lord of the Flies" - you see them rushing to help each other. That's not to say there won't be assholes exploiting the situation but humanity as a species has survived by helping each other.

I don't think it's that much of a cliché. Certainly, much less so than the notion that just because there's enough to go round, that humans would get on with each other??

Also what news reports are you watching???? Just type "looting" into google news.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

From memory alpha:

"Lawlessness became the norm, and rape gangs became a common threat. For some of the citizens, drugs became an escape from the poverty and violence that they had to face every day. Few citizens escaped the planet."

Further, the legitimate government of the planet was overthrown by "factions".

There is absolutely no reason for the Federation not to step in here. I can only surmise that it is not worthwhile invading.

Let's post the more of the quote shall we:

The planet's government began breaking down in the 2330s. Dozens of factions developed, and civil war broke out. The Turkana government gave emergency powers to the two largest factions, the Coalition and the Alliance, but it was quickly overthrown by those cadres, and the planet broke away from the Federation in the 2350s, the two factions declaring the planet's independence. Lawlessness became the norm, and rape gangs became a common threat. For some of the citizens, drugs became an escape from the poverty and violence that they had to face every day. Few citizens escaped the planet.

In 2361, the USS Potemkin attempted to contact the colony. The vessel was warned away with the threat that anyone beaming down to the surface would be killed.

Sure, the situation was dire. But you're still forgetting about the prime directive. It can't be chosen when and when not to be enacted, it's there, all the time. It's a policy of non interference in the affairs of another world, where that world chooses not to receive help/support etc. The Federation were warned away from Turkana IV several times, & while the situation there sucks, the Federation are powerless to interfere lest they break the cardinal principle the organisation is founded upon.

It's a sovereign planet, they may as well storm over to Romulus to improve the rights of the citizens there. So again, while the prime directive certainly doesn't help the people affected by all this, it's there & must be upheld. The resources thing is nonsense, we've seen countless Federation worlds that were not rich in resources.

Indricotherium

Myrddin wrote: »

Let's post the more of the quote shall we:



Sure, the situation was dire. But you're still forgetting about the prime directive. It can't be chosen when and when not to be enacted, it's there, all the time. It's a policy of non interference in the affairs of another world, where that world chooses not to receive help/support etc. The Federation were warned away from Turkana IV several times, & while the situation there sucks, the Federation are powerless to interfere lest they break the cardinal principle the organisation is founded upon.

It's a sovereign planet, they may as well storm over to Romulus to improve the rights of the citizens there. So again, while the prime directive certainly doesn't help the people affected by all this, it's there & must be upheld. The resources thing is nonsense, we've seen countless Federation worlds that were not rich in resources.

The Federation is more than willing to ignore the principles it purports to hold in such high regard when there is something on the line.

Kathryn Janeway, broke the temporal prime directive and committed a genocide in the name of saving 20 odd crew members, and was promoted to admiral for her hassle.

Likewise, the Federation held an entire race to ransom, and pushed them to the brink of extinction in order to win the dominion war.

The federation is more than willing to step in on third parties when there is a resource at stake.

The Ba'ku?

The Colonists in the Cardassian DMZ?

Unilaterally deciding to destroy the entrance to a bajoran wormhole? (unsuccessful)

I think compromising the prime directive to retake a planet, within the Federations sphere, whose government has disintegrated, and is whose society has degenerated into a situation where clockwork orange style "rape gangs" are the norm would be small fry in comparison to the regular breaches of the prime directive that happen every half dozen episodes of ST.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Kathryn Janeway, broke the temporal prime directive and committed a genocide in the name of saving 20 odd crew members, and was promoted to admiral for her hassle.

The temporal prime directive was broken by future Janeway, not by the present Janeway. Plus, it's a different directive to the one we're discussing anyway...completely different in fact. Debunked.

Likewise, the Federation held an entire race to ransom, and pushed them to the brink of extinction in order to win the dominion war.

Not a prime directive issue, plus, it was war. The Dominion were by far and away the aggressors, as seen countless times during episodes. You're also forgetting two Federation officers risked their lives to develop a cure for the virus, & ultimately this act ended the war.Debunked.

The Ba'ku?

Are you referring to the many Federation officers who fought to save the Ba'Ku & uphold the prime directive, or the sole rogue Admiral who sought to exploit it for his own gains? Debunked

The Colonists in the Cardassian DMZ?

The Federation didn't arm the ex-colonies, you must be mixing that up with the Cardassians who armed their colonies. Debunked

Unilaterally deciding to destroy the entrance to a bajoran wormhole? (unsuccessful)

Not a prime directive issue, & wasn't it the Romulans & later a shape shifter who attempted this?

I think compromising the prime directive to retake a planet, within the Federations sphere, whose government has disintegrated, and is whose society has degenerated into a situation where clockwork orange style "rape gangs" are the norm would be small fry in comparison to the regular breaches of the prime directive that happen every half dozen episodes of ST.

We don't see regular breaches though, short of twisting the facts. Yet again, very little to zero evidence to support your claims...

Kirby

Myrddin wrote: »

Not a prime directive issue, & wasn't it the Romulans & later a shape shifter who attempted this?

No the federation tried. But the wormhole became uncollapsible and it was no longer an option.

For plot reasons of course. The dominion arent very scary when the only doorway to the alpha quandrant could be shut. :P

helimachoptor

knucklehead6 wrote: »

New Orleans Class, no?

Deleted User wrote: »

Think so, Maxwell's new ship was a Nebula?

yeah sorry just realised he wasnt on the Rutledge

Indricotherium

Myrddin wrote: »

The temporal prime directive was broken by future Janeway, not by the present Janeway. Plus, it's a different directive to the one we're discussing anyway...completely different in fact. Debunked.

That's splitting hairs in a big way. Present Janeway asked for the information from the future and used it willingly. She's insider trading, and she's benefiting from it as well.

You also haven't addressed the genocide she committed.

Myrddin wrote: »

Not a prime directive issue, plus, it was war. The Dominion were by far and away the aggressors, as seen countless times during episodes. You're also forgetting two Federation officers risked their lives to develop a cure for the virus, & ultimately this act ended the war.Debunked.

Two Federation officers went rogue, and stole the cure from a government agency Who not only developed the targeted bio-WMD, but also were in possession of the cure all along, in order to cure their friend. The Federation government subsequently continued to refuse to supply the cure to the founders until after the war had been won.

I don't even know what you'd call that?? Brinksmanship on the total annihilation of a race? It's abhorrent!! They then have the gall to try members of the losing factions for war crimes!!!

The victors write the history books though!

Myrddin wrote: »

Are you referring to the many Federation officers who fought to save the Ba'Ku & uphold the prime directive, or the sole rogue Admiral who sought to exploit it for his own gains? Debunked

Again, a small faction went rogue and stopped a government sponsored relocation.

Myrddin wrote: »

The Federation didn't arm the ex-colonies, you must be mixing that up with the Cardassians who armed their colonies. Debunked

The federation unilaterally decided to take the land out from under it's owners homes and give it to a foreign government, because it suited them to do so. Private property is obviously not one of the rights enshrined by the Federation.

Myrddin wrote: »

Not a prime directive issue, & wasn't it the Romulans & later a shape shifter who attempted this?

It was not the Romulans, and it was not later a shape shifter who attempted this. It was the Federation, who done it, with n'er a nod to the Bajoran government.

A founder, heroically, managed to sabotage the yoke they were using to do it.

If interfering in the human rights abuse mess that is Turkana 4 is a prime directive issue, then surely destroying what is repeatedly referred to as the only thing that makes the Bajoran star system in any way important, without referring to or negotiating with their government is as well. You can't have that both ways.

Myrddin wrote: »

We don't see regular breaches though, short of twisting the facts. Yet again, very little to zero evidence to support your claims...

I'm twisting no facts. Just interpreting them differently to you. Again and again, before push even comes to shove, the Federation ignores the principles it purports to stand for, when there is any hint of a greater victory in doing so.

I really do think there is a sinister side to the Federation.

dr.fuzzenstein

Indricotherium wrote: »

A non aligned planet in the middle of their territory.

Warp capable. No Prime directive issue here.

Why doesn't the Federation step in here? Seems like there is no government to speak of here, or if there is one it doesn't seem to be protecting basic human rights of the majority of its citizens.

It must not have any resources.

That was only part of the primer directive. A civilisation that had not yet developed warp capability is to be left alone (we fall under that), so no contact or only covert contact is to be made, so as to not contaminate a primitive culture.
BUT it goes so much further than that, once a civilisation develops warp capabilities, you can't just waltz in there and start throwing your weight around and restructure cultures to your liking.
Once a planet joins the federation of planets, they had to abide by the laws of the federation, but it still is forbidden to just land on a planet you don't happen to like, overthrow the government and start putting your own rules in place.
That's my best interpretation of it. The prime directive is hard to nail down and I can't find a written example of the whole thing, so Memory Alpha has to be the best source:
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Prime_Directive

SarahBM

Gaul Dukat is a smarmy git!!
I can't stand him!!!

dr.fuzzenstein

SarahBM wrote: »

Gaul Dukat is a smarmy git!!
I can't stand him!!!

I'm pretty sure he's supposed to be that way!

SarahBM

SarahBM wrote: »

Gaul Dukat is a smarmy git!!
I can't stand him!!!

Wonderful isn't he

SarahBM

Something is starting between Worf and Dax

Myrddin

I'll try keep this as as short as possible, for the benefit of other thread users. Maybe we should start an Indricotherium v Myrddin opinion thread

Indricotherium wrote: »

That's splitting hairs in a big way. Present Janeway asked for the information from the future and used it willingly. She's insider trading, and she's benefiting from it as well. You also haven't addressed the genocide she committed.

It's still nothing to do with the current point, the prime directive. Remind me about the genocide, my knowledge of Voyager isn't up to my TNG/DS9 standard.

Two Federation officers went rogue, and stole the cure from a government agency Who not only developed the targeted bio-WMD, but also were in possession of the cure all along, in order to cure their friend. The Federation government subsequently continued to refuse to supply the cure to the founders until after the war had been won.

Section 31 isn't a government agency, it's a rogue agency. Sure, Starfleet (which is not the Federation) turns a blind eye every now & again, but Section 31 does not represent the core ethic of the Federation...so you are twisting the facts there. It's still not a prime directive issue, it's all out war with the Dominion looking to be the only side left standing at the end. If the Federation were that evil, they'd have

killed Odo to prevent him returning to the founders after the war...but he was free to do so

. Plus how many lives did that virus save in the end, human, klingon, romulan, cardassian, breen, jem hadar, vorta & founders alike?

Again, a small faction went rogue and stopped a government sponsored relocation.

It wasn't government sponsored though, because if it was, Doherty wouldn't have sent Sona ships to destroy the Enterprise after they'd left to alert Starfleet what was going on. Granted, it may have been a conspiracy at higher levels involving more than one (so I was wrong there), but my overall point remains...it was a rogue operation if anything, not representative of overall Federation ethics.

The federation unilaterally decided to take the land out from under it's owners homes and give it to a foreign government, because it suited them to do so. Private property is obviously not one of the rights enshrined by the Federation.

Why did it suit them to do so? Because it formed the basis of a peace treaty affecting millions/billions of people. Not saying it was an easy decision, but on an Admirals desk far removed from the situation, it'd have been small fry for such a large positive result. It didn't happen, because of the efforts of Picard & co...and the big evil Federation empire even came up with a new solution, one the colonists wanted.

It was not the Romulans, and it was not later a shape shifter who attempted this. It was the Federation, who done it, with n'er a nod to the Bajoran government. A founder, heroically, managed to sabotage the yoke they were using to do it.

Watch

DS9: Visionary, the Romulans destroyed the wormhole & DS9 along with it (except their engine core caused O'Brien to time shift, allowing him to prevent it). A heroic founder, lol, is that the same founder who later tried to destroy the Bajoran sun?

. I vaguely remember the Federation now trying to close the wormhole, in an act of desperation to prevent war alright...I guess if the Dominion were prepared to talk the Federation wouldn't have had to consider such drastic action.

If interfering in the human rights abuse mess that is Turkana 4 is a prime directive issue, then surely destroying what is repeatedly referred to as the only thing that makes the Bajoran star system in any way important, without referring to or negotiating with their government is as well. You can't have that both ways.

I suppose he could have not tried to seal the wormhole, risking the entire Bajoran population...the prime directive certainly wouldn't have mattered then would it? The act here was to save as many lives as possible.

I really do think there is a sinister side to the Federation.

There are far more examples of a sinister side to Starfleet, than there are the Federation. The Federation is far bigger than just Starfleet (the military aspect).

Daith

Myrddin wrote: »

Section 31 isn't a government agency, it's a rogue agency. Sure, Starfleet (which is not the Federation) turns a blind eye every now & again, but Section 31 does not represent the core ethic of the Federation...so you are twisting the facts there. It's still not a prime directive issue, it's all out war with the Dominion looking to be the only side left standing at the end. If the Federation were that evil, they'd have

killed Odo to prevent him returning to the founders after the war...but he was free to do so

. Plus how many lives did that virus save in the end, human, klingon, romulan, cardassian, breen, jem hadar, vorta & founders alike?

Nah, Odo points out the hypocrisy here.

"Interesting, isn't it? The Federation claims to abhor Section 31's tactics, but when they need their dirty work done they look the other way. It's a tidy little arrangement, wouldn't you say?'"

At least the Romulans admit that the Tal Shiar (who don't have the full support of every Romulan as 'Face of The Enemy' showed) is part of their government. Section 31 is certainly not a rogue agency.

You can't really justify every dark side of the Starfleet with "well they don't represent the Federation values".

Your point about killing Odo? That's what they were trying to do!