General Star Trek thread

Myrddin

Daith wrote: »

Nah, Odo points out the hypocrisy here.

"Interesting, isn't it? The Federation claims to abhor Section 31's tactics, but when they need their dirty work done they look the other way. It's a tidy little arrangement, wouldn't you say?'"

At least the Romulans admit that the Tal Shiar (who don't have the full support of every Romulan as 'Face of The Enemy' showed) is part of their government. Section 31 is certainly not a rogue agency.

You can't really justify every dark side of the Starfleet with "well they don't represent the Federation values".

If Section 31 was a part of Starfleet, then yeah, I'd agree. But every fact we know & have seen on tv shows that S31 is a separate rogue agency. I do grant that there is some hypocrisy there, without doubt. I wouldn't expect any warring side to get too upset when their enemy is weakened by a 3rd party.

We've only ever seen Section 31 operating in the shadows. The Tal Shiar actively and openly operates in plain sight, they're quite different in that respect.

Myrddin

Just to clarify here, I'm not suggesting that Starfleet is a paragon of virtue in any way & that everything they do is right. What I am arguing, is that the Federation is certainly not a 'dark place' to live in, as claimed previously. It's founded on solid ethical principles, has some blotches in its history, but I feel it's direction has always been one of peace where possible.

You have to consider too that Roddenberry established a lot of the ground work & background for the universe of Trek. Post-Roddenberry, that foundation had to remain but writers introduced darker elements like Section 31. If Roddenberry somehow retained creative input for all series of Trek, I very much doubt there'd have been a Section 31...& we'd probably have had a very different Trek instead, across all series.

Greyjoy

Kirby wrote: »

But if we were starving and naked for years not only would we not help those in trouble, we would be first inline to steal their stuff.

It's not a cliche. You only have to visit some places in the world to see it first hand, today. Imagine how much worse it would be worldwide if there was a disaster.

I agree that if people were under harsh conditions for years then they would become brutal & savage but the myth that Quark's speech perpetuates is that it's easy to quickly push people into savagery.('No holosuites' - really?). That as soon as they're under pressure people will turn on each other. That kind of myth about people instantly turning on each other is used in drama because it's an easy (almost lazy) way to generate conflict in a story. Bad stuff happens -> people immediately turn on each other.

Quark's speech doesn't really work even in the context of the episode itself - those federation troops have been under constant attack by the Jem'Hadar for five months. It took something a bit more than skipping a few meals or a lack of holosuites to turn them savage.

Daith

Myrddin wrote: »

If Section 31 was a part of Starfleet, then yeah, I'd agree. But every fact we know & have seen on tv shows that S31 is a separate rogue agency. I do grant that there is some hypocrisy there, without doubt. I wouldn't expect any warring side to get too upset when their enemy is weakened by a 3rd party.

We've only ever seen Section 31 operating in the shadows. The Tal Shiar actively and openly operates in plain sight, they're quite different in that respect.

No we haven't. They were operating in plain sight and with the full support of Admiral Ross in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"


Ross: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges."
Bashir:"'In time of war, the law falls silent.' Cicero. So is that what we have become; a 24th century Rome, driven by nothing other than the certainty that Caesar can do no wrong?!"
Ross:"This conversation never happened." (Ross reaffixes his Starfleet insignia) "You're dismissed."

They can't be a rogue agency if Starfleet Admirals are working with them. It's simply the Federation and/or Starfleet turning a blind eye to a part of themselves.

Myrddin

Daith wrote: »

They can't be a rogue agency if Starfleet Admirals are working with them.

Actively working with them, & turning a blind eye though are two very different things no?

helimachoptor

really good to see so much passion and chat in here.

Myrddin

helimachoptor wrote: »

really good to see so much passion and chat in here.

Indeed, the different opinions & take on things is quite interesting. It's good to challenge perception on things like this from time to time, I guess it's how we learn

SarahBM

I haven't come across section 31 yet. Can't wait to see what that's all about! Won't get to watch much of ds9 over the wknd as I have visitors. :-(

Myrddin

SarahBM wrote: »

visitors

Wait for it...:)

helimachoptor

Myrddin wrote: »

Wait for it...:)

Na na na na Batman

eh i mean Visitor :pac:

Myrddin

Myrddin wrote: »

If Section 31 was a part of Starfleet, then yeah, I'd agree. But every fact we know & have seen on tv shows that S31 is a separate rogue agency. I do grant that there is some hypocrisy there, without doubt. I wouldn't expect any warring side to get too upset when their enemy is weakened by a 3rd party.

We've only ever seen Section 31 operating in the shadows. The Tal Shiar actively and openly operates in plain sight, they're quite different in that respect.

Section 31 gets its name from the Starfleet charter. The Paragraph something Section 31 of the charter actually brings them into being.
Like it or no, they are Starfleet

Myrddin

Deleted User wrote: »

Section 31 gets its name from the Starfleet charter. The Paragraph something Section 31 of the charter actually brings them into being.
Like it or no, they are Starfleet

All the charter does is allow provision for extreme measures to be taken in times of extreme threat...it doesn't expand on anything more than that.

Yes and define extreme measures? It's wooly enough to allow all manner of sins. Just the kind of wording that governments today use.

The Federation is, by and large a Utopia, but there is and would have to be a sinister side, as the galaxy is not overly friendly beyond its borders.

Myrddin

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes and define extreme measures? It's wooly enough to allow all manner of sins

I don't see an issue with the wording, what civilisation/race or group isn't concerned with protecting their own existence in times of extreme threat? You'd swear we're talking about the mirror universe here

Daith

Myrddin wrote: »

Actively working with them, & turning a blind eye though are two very different things no?

They do both and then pretend that Section 31 doesn't exist and isn't a part of them.

Even without Section 31 we already saw Starfleet and others showing a dark side. Homefront/Paradise Lost is the best example.

It's why I love DS9. Virtue has to be tested alongside vice. With TNG the Federations virtue was almost always tested against an aliens vice. In DS9 that wasn't true.

Myrddin

Daith wrote: »

They do both and then pretend that Section 31 doesn't exist. Isn't a part of them.

Where is it specificly shown that Starfleet actiovely works with S31? You could be right here, I'm genuinely asking....

Daith

Myrddin wrote: »

Where is it specificly shown that Starfleet actiovely works with S31? You could be right here, I'm genuinely asking....

"Inter Ama Enim Silent Leges" with Admiral Ross working with Sloan. You also have Starfleet Medical covering up Odo's medical records from Bashir.

They can't all be rogue agents!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhkfuyBLDlY

Myrddin

Daith wrote: »

"Inter Ama Enim Silent Leges" with Admiral Ross working with Sloan. You also have Starfleet Medical covering up Odo's medical records from Bashir.

They can't all be rogue agents!

Ross with Sloan, give me the jist of that again. Fair point re Starfleet medical.

Daith

Myrddin wrote: »

Ross with Sloan, give me the jist of that again. Fair point re Starfleet medical.

Vid posted above

Now, I mean I understand why Starfleet did what they did of course but I find Section 31 fascinating. No wonder the new movies brought it in.

Myrddin

Fair points & well argued I've never denied that S31 aren't afforded a blind eye by Starfleet for obvious reasons (times of war). I still don't see in anything to suggest the actions of S31, while against outward Federation principles, aren't for the overall good of the Federation and it's billions of citizens. And that, is to be expected, no?

Indricotherium

Myrddin wrote: »

It's still nothing to do with the current point, the prime directive. Remind me about the genocide, my knowledge of Voyager isn't up to my TNG/DS9 standard.

The murder of countless billions of Borg drones via bio-engineered WMD. Which Janeway does without the merest bat of an eyelid.

And just to be clear, she insisted on this course of action despite other options being available.

Admittedly, I don't know the ins and outs of what happened once voyager returned to the alpha quadrant, but the next time Janeway surfaces, she's an admiral.

This happens around the same time that the federation is persuing the extermination of the founders via the same tactic.

Daith

Myrddin wrote: »

I still don't see in anything to suggest the actions of S31, while against outward Federation principles, aren't for the overall good of the Federation and it's billions of citizens. And that, is to be expected, no?

You could say the same thing about the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order except their governments recognize them and they are public knowledge. In fact the Tal Shiar and the Order publicly wanted to commit genocide against the Founders and the Federation didn't intervene. Perhaps their defeat prompted Starfleet/Section 31 to come up with their own version of genocide?

The Federation and Starfleet need a Section 31 but just like Sisko from "In The Pale Moonlight" it takes the shine off the virtuous Federation.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

The murder of countless billions of Borg drones via bio-engineered WMD

Not sure you can 'murder' a drone any more than you can murder a computer. To imply they're anything other than malignant drones, hell bent on the extermination of all life forms is all kinda of wrong. A free'd drone, ok that's different (it's essentially a brand new person anyway, with the person as they were largely lost)...but in full on Borg mode, no.

Daith wrote: »

You could say the same thing about the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order except their governments recognize them and they are public knowledge. In fact the Tal Shiar and the Order publicly wanted to commit genocide against the Founders and the Federation didn't intervene. Perhaps their defeat prompted Starfleet/Section 31 to come up with their own version of genocide?

Well Tain originated that particular plan, but once the Founders had learned of it, they infiltrated both groups and done everything possible to 'carry it forward', in order to allow both organisations to be wiped out. You could debate whether the plan would have gone ahead without such Founder assistance.

The Federation and Starfleet need a Section 31 but just like Sisko from "In The Pale Moonlight" it takes the shine off the virtuous Federation.

Oh it definitely does that, the mere act of throwing a blind eye to S31 achieves that end. No arguments there, however, I still no no evidence of the Federation being a 'dark' place to live in

Indricotherium

Myrddin wrote: »

Not sure you can 'murder' a drone any more than you can murder a computer. To imply they're anything other than malignant drones, hell bent on the extermination of all life forms is all kinda of wrong. A free'd drone, ok that's different (it's essentially a brand new person anyway, with the person as they were largely lost)...but in full on Borg mode, no

They do say it is only a matter time before any argument on the internet ends up here.....

Selective definition of what a is person to justify genocide. State sponsered extermination programmes. Forced relocations. A blissfull public seemingly ignorant of all this.

Does this have any historical resonance for you?, remind you of any regimes on earth?

Seems pretty dark to me.

Any argument that treats the Starfleet or section 31 as anything other than an extention of the federation governments executive will, or picks and chooses which circumstances, or what a person is to justify even one murder let alone the murder of scores upon thousands of billions is very weak in my opinion.

Myrddin

^ Godwin at your own behest dude, I'm not even going there

Optimus Prime

wow, i thought i was a big star trek fan until i seen some of the back and forth trek knowledge on display here! Great conversation!

Also, off topic: Dark Matter is ok, could be good.. its only 3 eps in so ill give it a chance..

crazyderk

Michael eddigton is a great character I have to say, he brings out such passion in Sisko.

I'm milling through season 5 and some of the episodes are quality. I don't want to post anything and spoil it for Sarah!

Indricotherium

crazyderk wrote: »

Michael eddigton is a great character I have to say, he brings out such passion in Sisko.

I'm milling through season 5 and some of the episodes are quality. I don't want to post anything and spoil it for Sarah!

I like Eddington. He's a great foil for odo.

One thing that bothers me about him though is that he tends to dip in and out of it a lot. Like sometimes he doesn't appear in episodes when he should be there on the station.

degrassinoel

Indricotherium wrote: »

I like Eddington. He's a great foil for odo.

One thing that bothers me about him though is that he tends to dip in and out of it a lot. Like sometimes he doesn't appear in episodes when he should be there on the station.

that because

he's out with his Maquis girlfriend blowing the crap out of cardi's in the briar patch!

dr.fuzzenstein

Indricotherium wrote: »

They do say it is only a matter time before any argument on the internet ends up here.....

Selective definition of what a is person to justify genocide. State sponsered extermination programmes. Forced relocations. A blissfull public seemingly ignorant of all this.

Does this have any historical resonance for you?, remind you of any regimes on earth?

Seems pretty dark to me.

Any argument that treats the Starfleet or section 31 as anything other than an extention of the federation governments executive will, or picks and chooses which circumstances, or what a person is to justify even one murder let alone the murder of scores upon thousands of billions is very weak in my opinion.

So, how would you address the Borg issue? Inviting them round for a cup of Earl Grey is not going to work with them.