General Star Trek thread

IvySlayer

Myrddin wrote: »

The Doctor proved his ability to grow and adapt beyond his original programming...and regardless of whatever 'container' (the ships computer) holds his program, he demonstrated many times that he had grown beyond mere instruction/responses. What about his mobile emitter? That allowed complete independence of any ships computer & he retained everything he had before. The mobile emitter nullifies the 'it must be the computer' argument enough for me.

The emitter stored his program and was downloaded into it. How many times did he have to run back to sickbay if the computer was failing before his program was 'lost'

The emitter is full of plot holes :P

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

How many times did he have to run back to sickbay if the computer was failing before his program was 'lost'

But that was only so his program could be saved, it had nothing to do with the program being tied to the ships computer. As I said, either are just containers, the mobile emitter simply provides another container independent of the ship - the point being, the ship isn't technically needed & as such, can't be tied into the arguments about his sentience.

The emitter is full of plot holes :P

Canon holes

dr.fuzzenstein

IvySlayer wrote: »

The Doctor is an extension of the computer. Because he was nice several seasons on does not indicate sentience, he simply changes his programming. When he came back to Jupiter station Zimmerman changed his greeting protocol to be friendlier, did he give him sentience or did he simply adjust some lines of code?

Computers run 90% of the ship automatically, the computer will self destruct the ship if told to, just the same when Janeway told the doctor to delete himself if the Borg tried to assimilate Voyager.

Computers do learn and adapt.

Data is a computer and therefore cannot be sentient by your reasoning.
In the beginning the EMH just asked what the problem was, fixed it and then got deactivated again.
The Doctor, as opposed to the basic EMH, maintains friendships, is interested in the outside world, has hobbies (does the ship's computer sing opera?) and holds passionate opinions. In a way he is more human than Data, since Data has no emotions and is guided more by logic than The Doctor.
In that line of reasoning, they are both machines, Data has been proven to be sentient and by the same criteria The Doctor is sentient.
You say The Doctor is the extension of the ship's computer, but that is simply the operating system on which the Doc runs. In a way you are an extension of your house, you have to return to it periodically, you need a dwelling to function, so you are an extension of your house?

The Black Oil

Robert Picardo's presence elevates pretty much anything he's in.

Indricotherium

SarahBM wrote: »

Afraid I'll just have to disagree with you.

I'm with you. The doctor is definitely sentient. Whether his consciousness exists within the computer or not is neither here nor there.

It's been shown on TnG that the slightest slip of language can conjure sentience out of the holodeck. Moriarty and so on.

The computer behind the enterprise / voyager is capable of assembling and dissambling things at a molecular level, routinely, and many times over at once. It has the computing power needed to run transporters, replicators, plot interstellar courses etc etc etc routinely every day of the week. This is an unimaginable amount of power.

If you combine the computing power backing the doctor, with the open end nature of his programming / his ability to learn and the fact that he is "on," for many years.

Artificial intelligence is within reach of today's computing technology, which on a star trek scale, is in its infancy. I don't think it outlandish to think that intelligence and sentience is possible if you throw 400 years of advancment at that.

***my phone autocorrects holodeck to homosexual**** I never noticed that before.

Indricotherium

SarahBM wrote: »

yep, the mobile emitter allowed him freedom from sickbay, whereas the computer could never survive outside the ship

The computer did survive e outside the ship when it was stolen that time.

SarahBM

Worf's bachelor party!!! LOL!!! When Worf said they had to fast until the day of the wedding
Julian "but that's four days away!"
Martack "it's a short time, I know!"
So funny!!!!
Poor Dax is having a hard time with the general's wife

degrassinoel

Indricotherium wrote: »

***my phone autocorrects holodeck to homosexual**** I never noticed that before.

I read every other post with "Holodeck" in it twice after reading that and they were comical!

SarahBM

Best wedding ever. Klingon vows are so much better than Christian ones. Plain and simple. Love it.

368100

IvySlayer wrote: »

As much as I love the Doctor, he's not a sentient being in my eyes. In Flesh and Blood he's talking about holographic rights.

Data is a sentient being, he has a positronic brain and his own programming. The Doctor imitates sentience and is part of a computer programe. So if he is sentient, isn't it Voyagers computer that is sentient?

Using that reasoning would it not be feasible that data's "brain" as such could be downloaded into a ship's computer given that they're both essentially technology?

And if so does that then mean that you think that data would lose his sentience?

In terms of the Doctor, why are you making a comparison between the program and the computer?
Your mind is the program, your brain the computer. One is not the other

SarahBM

Statistical probabilities. Bashir and somebothrr genetically enhanced humans try to predict the out come of the war with the Dominion. Julian wanted the federation to surrender because their casualties would be nine billion and the federation would lose. But if they surrendered there would be none.
Sisko and O'Brien would rather fight and lose than capitulate.
Who do you agree with? Bashir who wants to surrender and save 9 billion or Sisko who wants to go down swinging?

crazyderk

SarahBM wrote: »

Statistical probabilities. Bashir and somebothrr genetically enhanced humans try to predict the out come of the war with the Dominion. Julian wanted the federation to surrender because their casualties would be nine billion and the federation would lose. But if they surrendered there would be none.
Sisko and O'Brien would rather fight and lose than capitulate.
Who do you agree with? Bashir who wants to surrender and save 9 billion or Sisko who wants to go down swinging?

I think the main point at the end was that one of the enhanced guys didn't account for 1 person who changed the plan therefore his speculation couldn't be held accountable as anything could change which as we know does.

Based on that I agree with sisko and his lets give it a go!

Myrddin

SarahBM wrote: »

Statistical probabilities. Bashir and somebothrr genetically enhanced humans try to predict the out come of the war with the Dominion. Julian wanted the federation to surrender because their casualties would be nine billion and the federation would lose. But if they surrendered there would be none.
Sisko and O'Brien would rather fight and lose than capitulate.
Who do you agree with? Bashir who wants to surrender and save 9 billion or Sisko who wants to go down swinging?

Sure when you look at it via pure mathematics, it's an easy choice. But I think anyone watching the show, would see everything achieved in Roddenberry's universe by humanity worth fighting for in order to save. Life under the Dominion would be a lot different to life in the Federation...humans & any other non Dominion race certainly wouldn't be afforded the same rights and freedomes they've been used to having. No doubt someone will be along to say life in the Dominion would be much better, & that the often victimised Borg would make great friends too....but in reality, the Dominion were are a dominating force led by beings who malign 'solids' & see them as lesser beings. Hardly an enticing prospect for life under.

Daith

Myrddin wrote: »

Sure when you look at it via pure mathematics, it's an easy choice. But I think anyone watching the show, would see everything achieved in Roddenberry's universe by humanity worth fighting for in order to save. Life under the Dominion would be a lot different to life in the Federation...humans & any other non Dominion race certainly wouldn't be afforded the same rights and freedomes they've been used to having. No doubt someone will be along to say life in the Dominion would be much better, & that the often victimised Borg would make great friends too....but in reality, the Dominion were are a dominating force led by beings who malign 'solids' & see them as lesser beings. Hardly an enticing prospect for life under.

I often wonder if a new Star Trek show should be something like this. An alien race conquers Earth. Federation is in tatters or gone. A decade or so later. We then see a rebellion forming and connecting to other planets. Maybe too much like BSG though but I think you could get the optimism of Trek in there.

Myrddin

Daith wrote: »

I often wonder if a new Star Trek show should be something like this. An alien race conquers Earth. Federation is in tatters or gone. A decade or so later. We then see a rebellion forming and connecting to other planets. Maybe too much like BSG though but I think you could get the optimism of Trek in there.

Yeah maybe so, could be interesting.

Indricotherium

Daith wrote: »

I often wonder if a new Star Trek show should be something like this. An alien race conquers Earth. Federation is in tatters or gone. A decade or so later. We then see a rebellion forming and connecting to other planets. Maybe too much like BSG though but I think you could get the optimism of Trek in there.

That would be good I'd say, but I don't think ST should give into that temptation.

When they were making the Motion picture and the Wrath of Khan there was huge pressure to make the Enterprise a "junk ship" to match the Millennium Falcon from S***w**s. They resisted that and went with the Enterprise as the beacon / flag ship.

ST, barring the recent movies, has always been about human problems and dilemmas, with the ships and lasers and maguffins and wars and all that as background.

If I were making a new ST series, I'd cut back on the massive CGI fleet scenes and concentrate more on the character and faction interactions.

Some of the best episodes of trek take place on one or two bogey old sets, with hardly any special effects.


BSG has lots of the pewpewpew boomboomboom, and I really enjoy it, but I don't think that's what trek is all about.

SarahBM

I have to say I actually love the more technical episodes to do with ships and technology. I love the ships and the Space battles. Red Alert is one of my favorite trek quotes
I understand what your saying about concentrating on the characters etc.
Is Renegades going to be the federation fighting back against an outside occupation force? Maybe I picked that up wrong.

Does anyone here play the online game? I used to but I'm not a very good "Gamer", so I just got frustrated when I couldn't make things work for me LOL

Indricotherium

Vga planets all the way. The only game for me.

Bags being the bird men if we are playing a game.

SarahBM

Indricotherium wrote: »

Vga planets all the way. The only game for me.

Bags being the bird men if we are playing a game.

Forgive my ignorance, what's VGA?

Indricotherium

SarahBM wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance, what's VGA?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VGA_Planets

the best computer game EVER!

Myrddin

Sarah, you should check out these two games. They're handy to play, & feel very 'Trek' like (they're both bridge sims, so if you like the ships & tech, you'll like these)

Star Trek: Starfleet Academy (set around the time of STVI)

Star Trek Bridge Commander (set after Insurrection)

Bridge Commander can be heavily modded, and you can add in tons of stuff that isn't in the normal game. There was a huge modding community around it for years, & a lot of the mods put the full game to shame.

crazyderk

I got my first taste of section 31 today

helimachoptor

Robert Knepper was in one of the early eps on TNG "Haven"

crazyderk

In the pale moonlight - what an episode! By far one of the best of the series!

Owryan

Daith wrote: »

I often wonder if a new Star Trek show should be something like this. An alien race conquers Earth. Federation is in tatters or gone. A decade or so later. We then see a rebellion forming and connecting to other planets. Maybe too much like BSG though but I think you could get the optimism of Trek in there.

Wasn't this not the idea that eventually led to "Andromeda" ? Remember reading somewhere that the original concept was described as being post the UFP collapsing and the struggle to rebuild it.

Indricotherium

IvySlayer wrote: »

As much as I love the Doctor, he's not a sentient being in my eyes. In Flesh and Blood he's talking about holographic rights.

Data is a sentient being, he has a positronic brain and his own programming. The Doctor imitates sentience and is part of a computer programe. So if he is sentient, isn't it Voyagers computer that is sentient?

There's a good auld show on channel 4 at the moment. "humans", It's exploring all this.

dr.fuzzenstein

The Black Oil wrote: »

Robert Picardo's presence elevates pretty much anything he's in.

Yes it does. That's him in Legend:



edit:
If you haven't seen it, your life is not complete. That and Labyrinth with David Bowie.

dr.fuzzenstein

Indricotherium wrote: »

There's a good auld show on channel 4 at the moment. "humans", It's exploring all this.

+1, I am currently utterly spellbound by it. Not much good watchable British SciFi outside Doctor Who. Still miss Red Dwarf. :pac:

degrassinoel

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

+1, I am currently utterly spellbound by it. Not much good watchable British SciFi outside Doctor Who. Still miss Red Dwarf. :pac:

RD is back next year afaik