General Star Trek thread

Indricotherium

I think the Borg Queen is what occurs when a dominant personality is assimilated and surfaces within the hive mind.



The Borg:

We've seen on a much smaller scale, that strong personalities can direct mini-collectives, such as when Seven establishes a mini collective in "survival instinct", or when Chakotays mates establish a mini collective in "Unity".

I feel that the Borg must function by some sort of consensus decision making. With only very powerful personalities ever approaching being a Borg Queen.

I think a Queen occurs when the Borg assimilate an incredibly strong and powerful personality. A theory of mine is that when Picard was assimilated, this occured, which is why the Locutas personality came about. Picard, a very strong personality, was battling the queen for control of the collective. I think the chaos caused by something like this would go a long way toward explaining the Borgs subsequent behaviour toward Earth, and Humanity. The Queen got a taste of something that could really challenge her, and like all tyrants, presumed to defeat it.

Even with a queen personality surfacing in the collective, I don't think that such a personality could direct the collective to do something it didn't want to do.

Borg a race?

As to whether the Borg are a race. I think yes definitely. They are a mirror of the Federation yes. The easy interpretation is that they are the dark reflection of the pure Federation, but I think if you look a bit deeper, they are the perfect federation. They are the ideals of the federation carried to their logical conclusion. Perfect harmony, perfect communication, no conflict, no illness, no death.

The Hierarchy of foreignness from Orson Scott Cards, "Speaker for the Dead" is in my view a good way of categorising sci fi races.

http://ansible.wikia.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Foreignness

The Borg are definitely Raman in this hierarchy, rather than Varylse. And while it is rare I would agree with O.S.C. on anyhting, I think he hits the nail on the head with this, only war with Varylese is justified. Otherwise it is scrabbling for resources.

Seven = Onaka

I don't agree that Seven is not Onaka because of her time with the Borg. Experiences make the man. Is Worf the son of Mogh, or is he a Roshenko? His time with Human parents made him no less Klingon.

This is concept explored a couple of times within Trek. Odo, and his love of order. The lad that they recover in TnG, the Admirals son???? can't remember what he's called. Worf of course.

Obviously being assimilated so young, and then removed from the collective, her life took a huge turn, but she is still who she is.

dr.fuzzenstein

Respecting the Borg as a species is one thing, but holding them up as a good example is another.
You admire the order and the discipline, but I think the Borg are not meant as a good example, more an example of the ultimate conclusion of a totalitarian, fascist state, to the point where free will, choice, opinion and individuality has been entirely wiped out.
And comparing them to the Federation? The Borg do have a prime directive, assimilate. Not compatible with Federation ideology.
Also, respect the Borg all you want, but when they come calling don't think you can roll out the red carpet, break out the Romulan Ale and sit down for a good chat with them, unless you want a serving of Borg nanites with that.
Yes, individual Borg can be rescued, but there's billions of them, you can't return them all to normal.

Cookie_Monster

The argument re the caretaker is a bit redundant IMO. If he hadn't damaged and subsequently stayed to sort the Okampa atmosphere they would have been found and eradicated / enslaved by the Kazon anyway. Him being there prevented that initially.
By Voyager remaining in the area and interfering heavily with the Kazon they did more damage than would otherwise have occurred if the simply went home and left the area to develop, essentially back to the state it would have been in. Maybe the local Kazon sect could have pulled something useful from the remains of the array but if Voy had used it to get home there must have been some sort of overload possible on the wave generator

Indricotherium wrote: »

It's worth noting that as of Nemesis, Picard, who generally upholds the Prime Directive, is slumming it as a lowly captain, whereas Janeway who willfully breaks it in order to save herself a bit of guilt, has been promoted.

He's captain of the flagship, why would he want to be an admiral stuck behind a desk somewhere? Aren't there several references along the way about "not letting them take that away from you". I'm pretty sure Kirk mentions it in Generations

SarahBM wrote: »

I know the Borg are not a race now, as they have assimilated numerous other species. But they must have begun somewhere. What was the original species that began it all?!??
As Spock would say, fascinating!

They're human, the remaining crew of the NX Columbia. Star Trek: Destiny

SarahBM

Episode 3 Janeway just gave Paris a lecture on the prime directive. And then she just broke it.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

I think the Borg Queen is what occurs when a dominant personality is assimilated and surfaces within the hive mind.

An interesting theory, but unlikely given as part of the regular assimilation procedure the personality is wiped. A discussion on the origin of the Borg, & the hierarchical structure within is interesting.

The Borg:

We've seen on a much smaller scale, that strong personalities can direct mini-collectives, such as when Seven establishes a mini collective in "survival instinct", or when Chakotays mates establish a mini collective in "Unity".

Those mini collectives only work when the individuals concerned are not drones. It gives zero insight into the collective, & is instead, merely a remnant of technology left behind once freed from the collective. Had you given the unimatrix zero example however, I'd have listened Unimatrix zero, as we seen, only offers virtual individuality to drones when regenerating, & even at that, it's a glitch in the matrix so to speak. The people those drones once were prior to assimilation, are not who we see in unimatrix zero.

I feel that the Borg must function by some sort of consensus decision making. With only very powerful personalities ever approaching being a Borg Queen.

You're probably partly right here, consensus probably guides low level/routine things like space travel etc. However it's not as a result of individuals personalities (because we know those are lost), & is instead, more likely guided by subroutines, algorithms, logic, & advanced programming. The only personality within the entire collective, is the Queen. There has never, ever, been a Borg that demonstrated a personality while part of the collective.

I think a Queen occurs when the Borg assimilate an incredibly strong and powerful personality. A theory of mine is that when Picard was assimilated, this occured, which is why the Locutas personality came about. Picard, a very strong personality, was battling the queen for control of the collective. I think the chaos caused by something like this would go a long way toward explaining the Borgs subsequent behaviour toward Earth, and Humanity. The Queen got a taste of something that could really challenge her, and like all tyrants, presumed to defeat it.

Locutas was quite different, & was made a not-total Borg intentionally by the Queen in order to provide a better liaison for the people of Earth. Not quite sure where you're getting this 'battling for control of the collective' stuff from, it certainly wasn't depicted in canon. The Queen possesses the sum knowledge of every drone in the collective, I don't think many individuals could challenge that.

Even with a queen personality surfacing in the collective, I don't think that such a personality could direct the collective to do something it didn't want to do.

I do Did we not see on screen the Queen directing cubes to collide with something (can't remember the episode, or even what they were colliding with, but have a vague memory of the scene itself)

Borg a race?

As to whether the Borg are a race. I think yes definitely. They are a mirror of the Federation yes. The easy interpretation is that they are the dark reflection of the pure Federation, but I think if you look a bit deeper, they are the perfect federation. They are the ideals of the federation carried to their logical conclusion. Perfect harmony, perfect communication, no conflict, no illness, no death.

The Hierarchy of foreignness from Orson Scott Cards, "Speaker for the Dead" is in my view a good way of categorising sci fi races.

http://ansible.wikia.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Foreignness

The Borg are definitely Raman in this hierarchy, rather than Varylse. And while it is rare I would agree with O.S.C. on anyhting, I think he hits the nail on the head with this, only war with Varylese is justified. Otherwise it is scrabbling for resources.

This is where you'll lose me, it's just reaching from this point. The Borg are to Star Trek as to what zombies are to a zombie film. Nothing more, they there to instil fear about the loss of individuality, & enslavement.

Seven = Onaka

I don't agree that Seven is not Onaka because of her time with the Borg. Experiences make the man. Is Worf the son of Mogh, or is he a Roshenko? His time with Human parents made him no less Klingon.

Another bizarre analogy You're contradicting yourself also here - if experiences make the man, & those experiences are removed, is the man still the man? Worf is Worf, because of his experiences. Remove his life with the Roshenko's & he'd be a different man. Remove Onaka's experiences, and she's different now too.

Obviously being assimilated so young, and then removed from the collective, her life took a huge turn, but she is still who she is.

She is Onaka Hansen, as in her biological identity is in tact. She is not Onaka the person though, because that person was destroyed by the Borg.

Myrddin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

They're human, the remaining crew of the NX Columbia. Star Trek: Destiny

That's not right dude, the Borg Queen described the origins of the Borg (I've been reading about it the last hour or so). They began WAY before the ENT episode

Myrddin

Myrddin wrote: »

That's not right dude, the Borg Queen described the origins of the Borg (I've been reading about it the last hour or so). They began WAY before the ENT episode

Destiny trilogy of books

strelok

Deleted User wrote: »

Destiny trilogy of books

are they the books that spanned tos, tng/ds9 and voyager?

one race of aliens appearing in all 3 timelines/series/whatever..
that **** was awesome

SarahBM

"There's coffee in that nebula!"

Cookie_Monster

SarahBM wrote: »

"There's coffee in that nebula!"

:rolleyes:
****ing Janeway :mad:

Cookie_Monster

Myrddin wrote: »

That's not right dude, the Borg Queen described the origins of the Borg (I've been reading about it the last hour or so). They began WAY before the ENT episode

nothing to do with ENT...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_%28Star_Trek%29#Origin
one of several origin possibilities listed here

Myrddin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

nothing to do with ENT...

Sorry didn't notice the Destiny bit. They're non canon books right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_%28Star_Trek%29#Origin
one of several origin possibilities listed here

Some interesting ideas, I'm not seeing the v'ger connection though - not when there's evidence of the Borg since WAY before v'ger existed.

Indricotherium

Myrddin wrote: »

. Not quite sure where you're getting this 'battling for control of the collective' stuff from, it certainly wasn't depicted in canon..

Just my theory.

I'm basing it on filling in the gaps in the exposition on screen.

I'm also assuming that the very limited point of view that is given of the Borg is very fallible.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

I'm also assuming that the very limited point of view that is given of the Borg is very fallible.

Indeed, I can see how "Resistance is futile, your culture will adapt to service us, your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own" can be confused with "hey, wanna be pals?"

dr.fuzzenstein

Myrddin wrote: »

Indeed, I can see how "Resistance is futile, your culture will adapt to service us, your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own" can be confused with "hey, wanna be pals?"

Well, being a member of the Borg will at the very least solve the question of "what shall I wear today?"

Indricotherium

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, being a member of the Borg will at the very least solve the question of "what shall I wear today?"

Eyelaser and tubing. Goes with everything.

SarahBM

Indricotherium wrote: »

Eyelaser and tubing. Goes with everything.

Don't forget your cybernetic implants!!! ;-)

I have to say, this is like watching Voyager for the first time! The Doctor seems so different to me. Chakotay I find annoying and hello Tom Paris :-)

jobbridge4life

SarahBM wrote: »

Don't forget your cybernetic implants!!! ;-)

I have to say, this is like watching Voyager for the first time! The Doctor seems so different to me. Chakotay I find annoying and hello Tom Paris :-)

Tom Paris... babe.

helimachoptor

No accounting for taste on this thread anyway..!

dr.fuzzenstein

Tom Paris could have been a California beach bum...:pac:

Indricotherium

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Tom Paris... babe.

He's no ezri

jobbridge4life

Indricotherium wrote: »

He's no ezri

Who in turn was no Jadzia:(

Tom was a total babe. But then literally one of my first 'crushes' was Wesley Crusher (teehee).

Indricotherium

Top five:

Ezri, Grilka, seven, lursa, pel.

jobbridge4life

Top Five Female: Seven, Jadzia, Major Kirya, Uhra, Tasha Yar

Male: Kirk (obvs), Paris, Riker, Scotty, Chakotay (if he wasn't be annoying)

helimachoptor

No t'pol? or Hoshi..

SarahBM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Tom Paris... babe.

I wouldn't say babe, but he does have a charming rogue like quality that I find very attractive ;-)

Indricotherium

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Top Five Female: Seven, Jadzia, Major Kirya, Uhra, Tasha Yar

Male: Kirk (obvs), Paris, Riker, Scotty, Chakotay (if he wasn't be annoying)

Where's your sense of adventure. Worf , martok, odo, nausican no 2.

SarahBM

Indricotherium wrote: »

Where's your sense of adventure. Worf , martok, odo, nausican no 2.

There is something about the good doctor (Bashir that is) that I like. I like men with brains.....I wonder what Captain Boday looked like .......

No body likes B'Elanna Torres??

And I do like Martok! I think he is the only Klingon I do like!

IvySlayer

We'd all love a bit of Morn. Such a sweet talker.

The_Valeyard

IvySlayer wrote: »

We'd all love a bit of Morn. Such a sweet talker.

A sweet talker????

It's impossible to shut him up, goes on and on and on and on, he never lets anyone else have a word in!!!!!