General Star Trek thread

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Is that worth it??

None of the existing ST series have particularly good special effects, sound, or cinematography.

Outside of the films, I can think of only a handful of instances where camera angle and shot composition seem to have even occurred to the director of an episode.

For me, ST is dialogue and story driven, rather than visual. HD Blu-ray would only serve to reveal how bogey a lot of the sets, makeup and special effects are in my opinion.

The difference is staggering, the blu-rays are definitely the definitive way to view TOS & TNG now.

Indricotherium

Myrddin wrote: »

The difference is staggering, the blu-rays are definitely the definitive way to view TOS & TNG now.

Does it add much though?

The exterior space shots in most of TOS and TNG are just establishing shots. Two ships floating along side each other etc etc, and abotu 30 seconds of action per episode.

crazyderk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSQUrGKLpzc

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Does it add much though?

The exterior space shots in most of TOS and TNG are just establishing shots. Two ships floating along side each other etc etc, and abotu 30 seconds of action per episode.

It's not only confined to the external shots. The live action stuff looks gorgeous, after years of watching it in crappy sd form. For me, it really adds a lot...it gives the show such a breath of life, particularly the earlier seasons, and a lot of the time it's like watching a brand new show. This is how TNG was meant to look, and the versions we got back yonder were low quality low bandwidth versions of what these blu rays offer us today. I'm not saying their worth a premium price, but if you ever see them on offer, it's money well spent. I think the blu rays are beyond even the HD streamed versions, which are nice, but are still reduced in quality for bandwidth reasons. The quality on the blu ray disc, is a sight to behold.

Plus, for you, you get to see the brutal Federation conquistadores pillaging territory, fighting justice, and spreading their fascist will all over the alpha quadrant, in glorious 1080p!

Myrddin

Controversial post incoming!

In terms of pilot episodes, here is my definitive list starting from best to worst:

1) Carertaker (Voyager)
2) The Cage (TOS, unaired)
3) Encounter at Farpoint (TNG)
4) The Man Trap (TOS)
5) Emissary (DS9)
6) Broken Bow (Enterprise).

There, I said it.

Indricotherium

Myrddin wrote: »

Controversial post incoming!

In terms of pilot episodes, here is my definitive list starting from best to worst:

1) Carertaker (Voyager)
2) The Cage (TOS, unaired)
3) Encounter at Farpoint (TNG)
4) The Man Trap (TOS)
5) Emissary (DS9)
6) Broken Bow (Enterprise).

There, I said it.

Is 6 the best?

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Is 6 the best?

Nope Watched Broken Bow last night, it's awful given the importance of a pilot episode in setting out the tone of the show.

Kiith

I'd probably go with the below. Caretaker was very good, and had the success of DS9 and TNG to build upon. Set the tone well, and was a good introduction to the new crew. Emissary was great as well, though it spent a bit too much time on the Prophets from what i remember. Encounter at Farpoint was good, but it feels so old now (plus, the uniforms ). I actually enjoyed Broken Bow, even if it wasn't great from a pilot point of view.

1) Caretaker (Voyager)
2) Emissary (DS9)
3) Encounter at Farpoint (TNG)
4) Broken Bow (Enterprise).
5) The Man Trap (TOS)
6) The Cage (TOS, unaired)

To my shame, I don't think i've ever seen the original pilot or unaired pilot for TOS.

Indricotherium

Series openers are generally poor, as they really just function as an introduction to the characters and whatever Theme / McGuffin is going to drive the series,

For example in 'Encounter at Farpoint, all the main characters along with their single massive character aspect are introduced

examples:

Picard - stand offish and brooding
Riker - green and enthusiastic
Data - wants to be a real boy
Yar - not involved in main plot
Geordie - Blind

The themes that will dominate the run of TNG are also introduced - colonialism, conquest, suppressing native cultures, realising the Federations manifest destiny to rule over the galaxy and homogenise all life into an idyllic that couldn't exist in nature and is doomed to failure.

Myrddin

Kiith wrote: »

To my shame, I don't think i've ever seen the original pilot or unaired pilot for TOS.

You should rectify that, even for the sake of historical interest. The Cage is particularly good I thought.

Indricotherium

Caretaker:

Janeway - criminally negligent leadership
Torres - angry
Paris - bit of a lad
Kim - eager

IvySlayer

Re-watching Chain of Command

I used to hate Jellico and sympathised with the Enterprise crew, but after watching it over and over I've come to realise Jellico was a fantastic captain and Riker was a total dick.

Jellico was assigned as Captain of the Enterprise in preparation for war. That meant changes, this was a battleship now not a diplomatic ship. Re-assigning engineering teams to security, changing shift patterns, changing consoles etc

Riker was slower than most to adjust to his command style, not only that he openly started questioning his decisions, even in front of other crewmembers.

So what did Jellico actually do? He found out what the Cardassians were planning, stopped the invasion, secured the release of Picard, practically disabled a entire Cardassian fleet using only 1 mine!

I love 2 moments of Jellico that I didn't notice first time around. One is when he tells Picard basically to feck off. 'The Enterprise is MINE now' Picard knew Jellico had it under control and left. The second is when he needed Riker to pilot the shuttle. He knew he needed Riker to blow off steam so Jellico said 'lets drop the ranks' and got him to agree to the mission after standing there and taking insults.

Jellico was awesome!

degrassinoel

Watched it recently myself, dont like Riker that much anyway, but i sided with him for that episode.

Actually, Riker wasnt too bad in Frame of Mind, apart from his hilarious gurning , that was a decent episode

Myrddin

Indeed, he was a 'rare breed' as they say...ready & able to get the job done. Jellico had such a different style to Picard, and while effective, there's debate about the manner in which he went about making changes. On one hand, it was a time of crisis, & there was "no time to give Will Riker, or anybody else for that matter, a chance...", but on the other hand, the Enterprise wasn't a warship, it had families, civilians, etc on board...it was a ship of exploration, diplomacy, and peace...making significant changes to every aspect of the ship overnight was always going to cause tension and problems.

I think you're judging Riker a little unfairly, don't forget, the nature off the change of command was damned irregular, and he later found out Picard was being held as a prisoner by the Cardassians, and the whole thing snowballed for him. He perhaps could have handed it better, but between Picard disappearing, Jellico turning the ship upside down and upsetting the entire crew, & then finding out Picard was being held as a PoW by Cardassians (and likely being tortured), it put Riker under a lot of unusual emotional pressure.

Whatever anyones take on it, it was a fantastic two parter

IvySlayer

degrassinoel wrote: »

Watched it recently myself, dont like Riker that much anyway, but i sided with him for that episode.

But why

Nothing Jellico ordered was out of hand imo

Riker was pulling faces and rolling eyes all episode long until he was relieved :P

degrassinoel

degrassinoel wrote: »

Watched it recently myself, dont like Riker that much anyway, but i sided with him for that episode.

Actually, Riker wasnt too bad in Frame of Mind, apart from his hilarious gurning , that was a decent episode

You were meant to side with him. He was "our" boy but honestly he was far from officer material in the episode never mind XO

degrassinoel

IvySlayer wrote: »

But why

Nothing Jellico ordered was out of hand imo

Riker was pulling faces and rolling eyes all episode long until he was relieved :P

Sure he does that in every episode, even his pokerface is different everytime ye see it

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

Nothing Jellico ordered was out of hand imo

It wasn't at all, it was the manner with which he went about things that was the problem. He treated Riker like an ensign, and was a one man show...the crew became nothing but extensions of ship systems, and the comradery, trust, and respect that had formed up to that point was all thrown out the window. There was no sense of unity between the Captain and the crew, and that is a problem. He actually allied himself with the one person incapable of seeing the flaws in his approach, Data.

Yes the Enterprise crew may have had a sense of familiarity that extended beyond rank and position, but that's the basis of all truly good teams. Jellico threw that outta the airlock, & it was his way or no way...not a very effective leadership style by any account.

degrassinoel

he also fell flat on his face with the cardassians a few times, to the point that Riker and Troi did a convincingly good job of acting embarrassed for him

But then, the cardi's are crafty buggers anyway

helimachoptor

I've said it before, Ronny Cox is a phenomenal "bad guy, Star Trek, Stargate, Robocop, the guy was immense

IvySlayer

Myrddin wrote: »

It wasn't at all, it was the manner with which he went about things that was the problem. He treated Riker like an ensign, and was a one man show...the crew became nothing but extensions of ship systems, and the comradery, trust, and respect that had formed up to that point was all thrown out the window. There was no sense of unity between the Captain and the crew, and that is a problem. He actually allied himself with the one person incapable of seeing the flaws in his approach, Data.

Yes the Enterprise crew may have had a sense of familiarity that extended beyond rank and position, but that's the basis of all truly good teams. Jellico threw that outta the airlock, & it was his way or no way...not a very effective leadership style by any account.

Jellico had a different style, he was a war time captain.

He pushed Geordi, yes taking away a third of his staff and making all sorts of changes, but Geordi got on with it (albeit with a little moan to Riker)

He pushed Troi, forcing her to the same standards as everyone else. Eventually as we know she starts taking pride in her uniform and seeks an extra pip on her collar.

Riker was acting like a spoiled brat and he ended up being rightly relieved. Riker failed in his duties whereas everyone else conformed to Jellicos new standards.

I think Jellico was written as a typical TNG admiral dick and we were supposed to hate him but Ronny Cox just owned that character.

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

Jellico had a different style, he was a war time captain.

He pushed Geordi, yes taking away a third of his staff and making all sorts of changes, but Geordi got on with it (albeit with a little moan to Riker)

He pushed Troi, forcing her to the same standards as everyone else. Eventually as we know she starts taking pride in her uniform and seeks an extra pip on her collar.

Riker was acting like a spoiled brat and he ended up being rightly relieved. Riker failed in his duties whereas everyone else conformed to Jellicos new standards.

Can't say I agree with that view on it, I felt Jellico was pushing hard, too hard. Riker was XO, he had a far, far, far tougher task than Geordi or anyone else had... Jellico called for changes, but it was up to Riker to "get it done", and these were shipwide changes, not just one department. Riker felt what Jellico wanted was possible, but not in that time frame, and Jellico's blind insistence and bull headedness brought about barriers at the command level...again, hugely poor leadership skills. You're right in that he was a war time Captain, he was incompatible with a ship like the Enterprise. Stick Jellico on a Defiant class ship maybe, but not where fine leadership is required.

I think Jellico was written as a typical TNG admiral dick and we were supposed to hate him but Ronny Cox just owned that character.

Totally agree, Cox is exceptional in those roles.

IvySlayer

Can't help but imagine Jellico in various scenarios if he was kept on

Imagine Dr Crusher or Data telling him theres a concert or play on in Ten Forward :pac:

Get the fcuk out of my ready room

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

Can't help but imagine Jellico in various scenarios if he was kept on

Imagine Dr Crusher or Data telling him theres a concert or play on in Ten Forward :pac:

Get the fcuk out of my ready room

Ha. I think he'd have come around in time tbh. Once the crises had passed, he'd have let things happen a bit more naturally, after all, he did rise to the rank of Captain, so there must be something in him that's able to inspire and lead people other than shouting orders. The damage to Riker & his relationship though would have been done, & I reckon Riker would have left the ship, likely taking up his own command.

degrassinoel

IvySlayer wrote: »

Can't help but imagine Jellico in various scenarios if he was kept on

Imagine Dr Crusher or Data telling him theres a concert or play on in Ten Forward :pac:

Get the fcuk out of my ready room

Reckon that was a tribute to Roddenberry tbh, he'd only died the year before that aired. Jelico would have been decent on a battleship, not a federation exploration vessel.

Regardless of the sytle it really was Riker's job to get it done. In no way should he have been disrespectful in public (or at all).
His role was to, privately, air his grievances then do what he was told.

degrassinoel

admit it, you like Riker!

degrassinoel

if ye want a laugh, watch 'second chances' in season 6, riker gets to be a douche to himself over and over again, it's comical!




Should probably have a Riker appreciation thread here

_Kaiser_

degrassinoel wrote: »

Should probably have a Riker appreciation thread here

To be fair, he's nowhere near as bad as Chakotay.

Ronny Cox IS awesome though. Seemed like he was in everything in the 80s.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

To be fair, he's nowhere near as bad as Chakotay.

Ronny Cox IS awesome though. Seemed like he was in everything in the 80s.

You gotta feel a bit sorry for Robert Beltran, he wanted to throw everything at that role and was neutered at every stage