Did you get hit by your parents?

Chuck Stone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I did. It doesn't mention anything about giving cops two-fingers or ASBOs.

Nice to know both you and Chuck are admitting it has gotten worse.

'It' has gotten worse? WTF are you on about? The world has never been safer. Tales of the decay of humanity because of the youth are utter bollocks and have been around for thousands of years.

Even if children are less respective of authority these days (evidence?) then I think that's healthy.

In the past too much arbitrary respect was given to people who didn't have the best interests of children at heart.

Respect should be earned - not demanded because of the clothes you wear of the shiny badge you have or the letters that accompany your name*.

*Except B.A. Baracas.

margio

Chuck Stone wrote: »

There's a study a few pages back that shows links between corporal punishment and all sorts of negative outcomes.

Couldn't be bothered getting it for you but it's there.

yeah and another study I copy and pasted had found that Children who were smacked benefited fom such discipline :pac:

Liam Byrne

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I did. It doesn't mention anything about giving cops two-fingers or ASBOs.

Nice to know both you and Chuck are admitting it has gotten worse.

'It' has gotten worse? WTF are you on about? The world has never been safer. Tales of the decay of humanity because of the youth are utter bollocks and have been around for thousands of years.

Even if children are less respective of authority these days (evidence?) then I think that's healthy.

In the past too much arbitrary respect was given to people who didn't have the best interests of children at heart.

Respect should be earned - not demanded because of the clothes you wear of the shiny badge you have or the letters that accompany your name*.

Except B.A. Baracas.

A basic level of decency and respect should be awarded to everyone you meet. That has nothing to do with a badge or letters.

The fvckwits that threw a brick through my windscreen were being "healthy", were they ?

There's a difference between what you're describing and what's happening.

Chuck Stone

margio wrote: »

yeah and another study I copy and pasted had found that Children who were smacked benefited fom such discipline :pac:

That study sought and seemed to find a particular tranche of people who were slapped and attained scholastic achievement.

The study says nothing about how they turned out as adults IIRC.

margio

Chuck Stone wrote: »

That study sought and seemed to find a particular tranche of people who were slapped and attained scholastic achievement.

The study says nothing about how they turned out as adults IIRC.

i think now that previous generations is proof of that

Kadent

not enough apparently

Chuck Stone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

A basic level of decency and respect should be awarded to everyone you meet. That has nothing to do with a badge or letters.

If someone is telling you to do something or has power over you then I think it's a persons duty to question why. Maybe kids do this naturally and it gets bred out of them by adults.

The fvckwits that threw a brick through my windscreen were being "healthy", were they ?

I dunno...

Liam Byrne

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

A basic level of decency and respect should be awarded to everyone you meet. That has nothing to do with a badge or letters.

If someone is telling you to do something or has power over you then I think it's a persons duty to question why. Maybe kids do this naturally and it gets bred out of them by adults.

The fvckwits that threw a brick through my windscreen were being "healthy", were they ?

I dunno...

No idea what that link is about, but hey - just realised that your name matches their activity so maybe you're not the most objective person to ask.

Questioning authority is healthy; being an obnoxious prick with a "fvck you" attitude to everyone and everything is not.

Chuck Stone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No idea what that link is about,

It's an effigy of a man... made out of straw... (changed link for clarification).

but hey - just realised that your name matches their activity so maybe you're not the most objective person to ask.

Liam, Liam, Liam, come now, that's playing the man instead of playing the ball. You're better than that surely?

Questioning authority is healthy; being an obnoxious prick with a "fvck you" attitude to everyone and everything is not.

If someone is an obnoxious prick with a bad attitude then maybe they just need a big liberal lefty hug!

Liam Byrne

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No idea what that link is about,

It's an effigy of a man... made out of straw... (changed link for clarification).

but hey - just realised that your name matches their activity so maybe you're not the most objective person to ask.

Liam, Liam, Liam, come now, that's playing the man instead of playing the ball. You're better than that surely?

Questioning authority is healthy; being an obnoxious prick with a "fvck you" attitude to everyone and everything is not.

If someone is an obnoxious prick with a bad attitude then maybe they just need a big liberal lefty hug!

Ah playing the man is ok in AH when it's a humorous observation!

They can have a "big lefty hug" BEFORE they act the prick. Acting the prick is a choice and for every one who makes excuses about poor unbringings and zero facilities or "my dad died" there are more in the exact same circumstances who didn't choose that path.

Making excuses for people embeds that mindset as if it were justification, abdicating responsibility.

Chuck Stone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ah playing the man is ok in AH when it's a humorous observation!

Horribly loose use of the word 'humorous' there methinks.

Acting the prick is a choice and for every one who makes excuses about poor unbringings and zero facilities or "my dad died" there are more in the exact same circumstances who didn't choose that path.

Ah yes, echoes of the good old 'rational choice theory'. There are no reasons. You broke the law and that's that. Good old binary outcomes.

Making excuses for people embeds that mindset as if it were justification, abdicating responsibility.

Yeppity. Being slapped by ones parents is no excuse for slapping little children. It should be met with derision by the more rational of us who try to distance ourselves from the the culture of violence that was normal for our fore-bearers.

"There never was a time when a major social problem was solved by beating a child. And there never will be such a time... For centuries adults have injured children and have lied about it, and other adults have heard those lies and then merely turned away... we must begin putting the blame where it belongs."

C. EVERETT KOOP, M.D., Sc. D., Surgeon General of the U.S. Public Health Service, U. S. Department of Health and Human Services.

cristoir

Is it not reasonable to believe it possible to raise a well mannered and societally functioning children by using light corporal punishment and to the same extent it is possible to raise good children without it.

So since it is possible to do wither and raise a child. Why not try the option without physical violence? While you might say slapping doesn't harm children is not best to eliminate any doubt and not do it?

BARRETT.50BMG

My girlfriend and I were talking about this last night after I finished posting. Sorry for calling people shaved chimps, its a subject I am very raw about which causes me quite a bit of upset when I talk about it, even more so when I hear people advocating on its behalf!

Anyway, we came to the conclusion that hitting a child makes the child fear you, however the child won't respect you. I have never respected anyone who has laid a finger on me.

However, earn a child's respect ( Which can be done and requires nothing but patience and time ) and said child can be just as easy to discipline!

Is it better to be feared, or respected?

filmbuffboy

I believe there is a right way and a wrong way to hit a child. Firstly, a child should only be punished if they have done something that is deserving of a slap across the arse etc.

A friend of mine is a child psychologist and she has told me on many occasions that hitting a child on certain areas of the body can have detrimental effects on that individuals well being later on in life. For example she has told me that you NEVER hit a child across the face. It is a very demeaning thing to do and affects the way they see themselves.

Personally, my mother & stepfather used to batter the crap out of me for the smallest of things. I remember going to school one day, PRIMARY school..... with a bruise all down one side of my face after my mother hit it across the side of a door. I think I was 11.

Needless to say m yrelationship with her isnt great now. Its not terrible, but were far from close.

Regardless of what I experienced as a child right up to the age of say 14 or 15 when I could begin to defend myself.... I would still say physical punishment is ok up to a point. Like a wooden spoon across the arse once, or a slap across the wrist.

Anything other than this is abuse through and through.

Tordelback

I was slapped on occasion as a kid, and It Never Did Me Any Harm. Mind you, I was also driven round in a car without a seatbelt, encouraged to watch Bosco, fed offal several times a week, taught that black people were less intelligent than white people, God created the world in 7 days and using condoms gave you AIDS.

None of which I would inflict on my own kids. Things change.

Look, irrespective of your own personal experience, it seems to me that an adult using their vastly greater strength to inflict pain on a child in order to impose their will can reasonably be viewed as a ****ed-up situation that presents violence against those weaker than you as a workable solution to your problems.

And if that doesn't strike you as wrong, then we're obviously on different pages.

stimpson

margio wrote: »

.An example (A real one ) was when My first guy was throwing a tantrum, he totally had a meltdown. I then confiscated his favourite toy and he went even more ballistic. I kept his toy for two weeks or so, He seemed to totally forget the toy and continued his spa attack. His behaviour continued

Sorry, but do you think this is a reasonable punishment? How old was your son when you did this?

Wompa1

My mother hit me, my father didn't. My father just yelled a lot. I was a lot more scared of my father than I was my mother. If I have kids I'm not sure how I'd discipline them. I know somebody who never seemed to get disciplined at all and her bad behaviour was actually encouraged. Allowed to drink and smoke etc. I wouldn't go that way either because that girl is a complete mess. Possibly one of the most evil people I ever knew because she would do things without any fear of ramifications, lying was second nature to her.

Liam Byrne

Chuck Stone wrote:

Yeppity. Being slapped by ones parents is no excuse for slapping little children. It should be met with derision by the more rational of us who try to distance ourselves from the the culture of violence that was normal for our fore-bearers.

Now who's strawmanning ?

At no stage was "being slapped by ones parents" put forward as an "excuse for slapping little children".

Liam Byrne

filmbuffboy wrote: »

I believe there is a right way and a wrong way to hit a child. Firstly, a child should only be punished if they have done something that is deserving of a slap across the arse etc.

A friend of mine is a child psychologist and she has told me on many occasions that hitting a child on certain areas of the body can have detrimental effects on that individuals well being later on in life. For example she has told me that you NEVER hit a child across the face. It is a very demeaning thing to do and affects the way they see themselves.

Personally, my mother & stepfather used to batter the crap out of me for the smallest of things. I remember going to school one day, PRIMARY school..... with a bruise all down one side of my face after my mother hit it across the side of a door. I think I was 11.

Needless to say m yrelationship with her isnt great now. Its not terrible, but were far from close.

Regardless of what I experienced as a child right up to the age of say 14 or 15 when I could begin to defend myself.... I would still say physical punishment is ok up to a point. Like a wooden spoon across the arse once, or a slap across the wrist.

Anything other than this is abuse through and through.

+1

A slap across the face is NEVER acceptable; I've repeatedly said this.

Neither is battering or thumping.

The ONLY thing I would condone is a light slap on the bum, and then ONLY when reasoning and vocal instruction doesn't work and the situation is escalating.

The thread has contained harrowing stories from people who were abused as a child, but those are separate, or else the smacking debate should be a separate thread, because no-one condones abuse along the lines of some of the stories outlines.

margio

stimpson wrote: »

Sorry, but do you think this is a reasonable punishment? How old was your son when you did this?

,

Yeah, I do in fact, and I totally stand over it. He was about 3 and a bit.

Chuck Stone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Now who's strawmanning ?

It's nothing even approaching a strawman. Half the replies in this thread are 'never did me any harm' which is just silly as an excuse for hurting children or threatening them with pain.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The ONLY thing I would condone is a light slap on the bum, and then ONLY when reasoning and vocal instruction doesn't work and the situation is escalating.

Why the bum?

It's a part of the body that is sensitive and close to the sexual organs of both boys and girls.

Why is hitting the bum of a child by an adult normal? Isn't it totally weird that hitting the buttocks of a child is deemed normal or even desirable by some sections of society?

Consider this.

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children

Spanking, defined as slapping of the buttocks, is a form of hitting and thus of physical violence. That fact alone should make the spanking of children unacceptable by the same standards that protect adults, who are not as vulnerable. However, there is more to spanking than simply hitting: spanking also trespasses on one of the body’s most private and sexual areas— the buttocks.

Spanking as sexual abuse

As in ages past, there are people today who are sexually excited by spanking. This trait, which is often expressed in pornography and associated with sadomasochism, is known in scientific literature as flagellantism. While many flagellants seek to engage in consensual spanking between adults, some find the spanking of minors to be either more arousing or more opportune.

As long as society sees spanking as a legitimate act of discipline, and as long as the spanked youths are presumed to have “deserved” it, sexually abusive spankers have an effective moralistic disguise for their true motives.

Source

Yuck.

Chuck Stone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

A slap across the face is NEVER acceptable; I've repeatedly said this.

The ONLY thing I would condone is a light slap on the bum

Your pontificating on this issue is allowing your cloak of 100% consistency to slip Liam.

Quick, hitch it up before you become exposed for being a normal fallible human being like the rest of us.

BARRETT.50BMG

Reading the posts of the people advocating smacking of children, leaves me with no respect for any of them. I'm borderlining contempt if truth be told, what must your children feel?

As I said above its a stand off between respect and fear, the more simple minded of our society either don't care, or don't have the time to earn respect!

We wonder why the world is a violent place, when many of our first memories are that of violence towards us.

Not to start an entirely different argument but has anyone else noticed a correlation between the intelligence of the parent and smacking? Or is it just me?

stimpson

margio wrote: »

,

Yeah, I do in fact, and I totally stand over it. He was about 3 and a bit.

2 weeks is a long time in a 3 year olds life. Using the Naughty Step technique, you are meant to use 1 minute per year as a timeout. 2 weeks is mental.

And how can you stand over it when you said yourself that his behaviour continued? If it doesn't work then what is the point?

margio

stimpson wrote: »

2 weeks is a long time in a 3 year olds life. Using the Naughty Step technique, you are meant to use 1 minute per year as a timeout. 2 weeks is mental.

And how can you stand over it when you said yourself that his behaviour continued? If it doesn't work then what is the point?

And you have how many kids again?.

stimpson

margio wrote: »

And you have how many kids again?.

Answer the question.

Chuck Stone

BARRETT.50BMG wrote: »

We wonder why the world is a violent place, when many of our first memories are that of violence towards us.

Boom!

"If we are ever to turn toward a kindlier society and a safer world, a revulsion against the physical punishment of children would be a good place to start."

Dr. Benjamin Spock.

Now how could someone called Spock not be anything but logical?

margio

stimpson wrote: »

Answer the question.

,

You answer the question, I have no question to answer

Shattered Dreamer

I used to get the odd slap on the ass or the legs by my mother growing up & it never did me any harm. To be honest fear of an actual punishment kept me in line. My parents never actually beat me up or anything, there's a big difference between physical abuse & a slap because you misbehaved.

The problem with children nowadays is that in a PC world were anybody who punishes a child physically they are branded as physical or sexual abusers. People shouldn't complain that children are douchebags when their parents aren't allowed punish them.

Chuck Stone

margio wrote: »

And you have how many kids again?.

I think having been a child endows most people with the faculties to form an opinion on the issue of corporal punishment.

BARRETT.50BMG

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Now how could someone called Spock not be anything but logical?

''The needs of the parent, outweighs the needs of the child.''

Oh wait . . . . . .

Anyone else notice that all the arguments to justify Margio and Liams point of view are all massive generalisations?

ASBOS, Kids giving the finger to the guards etc. gives absolutely ZERO reason for you to slap your kids.
If your children respected you in the first place you would not have smack them, so answer this question honestly, if not to me then to yourself.

Do your children fear you? Because I would put my house on the line and say if you regularly smack them, they certainly don't respect you.

stimpson

margio wrote: »

,

You answer the question, I have no question to answer

Surely you can back up your own discipline methods.

I would assume you do it because it's a power trip, or you get your kicks from depriving your son of his favourite toy, but only you can tell us for sure.

BARRETT.50BMG

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I think having been a child endows most people with the faculties to form an opinion on the issue of corporal punishment.

Correctomundo!

BARRETT.50BMG

stimpson wrote: »

Surely you can back up your own discipline methods.

I would assume you do it because it's a power trip, or you get your kicks from depriving your son of his favourite toy, but only you can tell us for sure.

Or perhaps is lacking the cognitive function to consider other, non invasive methods?

margio

[PHP][/PHP]

BARRETT.50BMG wrote: »

Correctomundo!

just shows how shallow yee are. I wasn't allowed go to a friends birtday party when I was nine. do yee think I should be plotting my revenge, with a sawnoff shotgun

Chuck Stone

margio wrote: »

just shows how shallow yee are. I wasn't allowed go to a friends birtday party when I was nine. do yee think I should be plotting my revenge, with a sawnoff shotgun

What now?

margio

BARRETT.50BMG wrote: »

Or perhaps is lacking the cognitive function to consider other, non invasive methods?

I suggest counselling before yu have children, because you have been through so much. Indeed I'm sure because of your past you wish not to smack them.I Respect that totally

BARRETT.50BMG

margio wrote: »

[PHP][/PHP]

just shows how shallow yee are. I wasn't allowed go to a friends birtday party when I was nine. do yee think I should be plotting my revenge, with a sawnoff shotgun

A beautifully crafted, considered and intelligent argument. Explain how we are shallow. I was abused as a child because Irish law dictates we are allowed smack our kids. I have been on the receiving end of hours of beatings because of a law you are holding close to your heart.

I have bled, lost teeth and been left with knots over my head because of this archaic law.

Ten years of this I put up with.

So do not call me shallow. Just dont.

BARRETT.50BMG

margio wrote: »

I suggest counselling before yu have children, because you have been through so much. Indeed I'm sure because of your past you wish not to smack them.I Respect that totally

Thank you Freud. Already had 12 years of it, it hasn't helped. I suggest you take anger management lessons so you don't hit your child.

margio

BARRETT.50BMG wrote: »

A beautifully crafted, consider and intelligent argument. Explain how we are shallow. I was abused as a child because Irish law dictates we are allowed smack our kids. I have been on the receiving end of hours of beatings because of a law you are holding close to your heart.

I have bled, lost teeth and been left with knots over my head because of this archaic law.

Ten years of this I put up with.

So do not call me shallow. Just dont.

,

Look you wee abused. sorry to hear that, but that's a abusing issue. Ireland will never ban alcohol because some morans decide or can't help get behind the wheel. Look I don't know what to say to you, but maybe if you had other Parents who just gave you the occasional smack, there is a chance that you wouldn't hold such an anti smacking view .

margio

BARRETT.50BMG wrote: »

Thank you Freud. Already had 12 years of it, it hasn't helped. I suggest you take anger management lessons so you don't hit your child.

I dont smack out of anger, and I have already stated that several times. I know before hand that I am going to do it, I give a warning before hand. I am calm when I do it.

stimpson

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

The problem with children nowadays is that in a PC world were anybody who punishes a child physically they are branded as physical or sexual abusers. People shouldn't complain that children are douchebags when their parents aren't allowed punish them.

Why do people assume that punishment must mean physical abuse.

My son has well defined boundaries and he gets consistently punished when he steps outside these boundaries. He is given one warning in a calm but firm way and if he continues then he's punished. We get down to his level and make eye contact and explain why he's getting punished and we follow through with it. After the punishment he gets another explanation and a hug and it is over.

We ALWAYS follow through and we ALWAYS keep calm. 90% of the time it doesn't get past the warning stage - he does what he is told.

Shattered Dreamer

margio wrote: »

Look you wee abused. sorry to hear that, but that's a abusing issue. Ireland will never ban alcohol because some morans decide or can't help get behind the wheel. Look I don't know what to say to you, but maybe if you had other Parents who just gave you the occasional smack, there is a chance that you wouldn't hold such an anti smacking view .

Not too belittle the obviously traumatic experience of your childhood or anybody who experienced physical abuse as a child but people need to draw a serious differential between full on physical abuse & mere physical punishment. There is a very obvious difference between a smack on the butt for being "bold" & an adult beating a child black & blue just because they're basically a sadist.

BARRETT.50BMG

margio wrote: »

,

Look you wee abused. sorry to hear that, but that's a abusing issue. Ireland will never ban alcohol because some morans decide or can't help get behind the wheel. Look I don't know what to say to you, but maybe if you had other Parents who just gave you the occasional smack, there is a chance that you wouldn't hold such an anti smacking view .

Highly doubtful, but your missing my point entirely, if the law with regards was not in place it would stop people taking the piss with it. If I hit anyone on the street, for whatever reason, I can be charged.

So why can you not come up with or utilise methods of discipline that does NOT involve hitting the child? Have you tried or are you just not arsed?

Chuck Stone

margio wrote: »

,Look you wee abused. sorry to hear that, but that's a abusing issue. Ireland will never ban alcohol because some morans decide or can't help get behind the wheel. Look I don't know what to say to you, but maybe if you had other Parents who just gave you the occasional smack, there is a chance that you wouldn't hold such an anti smacking view .

There are plenty of people who were subject to light smacking who are now against it.

You don't need to have sustained lasting damage to form an opinion against corporal punishment.

BARRETT.50BMG

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

Not too belittle the obviously traumatic experience of your childhood or anybody who experienced physical abuse as a child but people need to draw a serious differential between full on physical abuse & mere physical punishment. There is a very obvious difference between a smack on the butt for being "bold" & an adult beating a child black & blue just because they're basically a sadist.

I know that, but if this is happening to a child because the parents feel they are protected and entitled by law to do it, then its happening to one child too many. I have an extreme viewpoint on this because there is no gray area. A child being assaulted in any way by a parent is simply a crime.

This isn't driving home from the pub with one too many, this altogether more common. I would say 99% of people who drink drive get home safely,however its the minority that creates a problem.

Same thing in this instance.

*Not condoning drink driving, just using it as an example!

MagicSean

BARRETT.50BMG wrote: »

I know that, but if this is happening to a child because the parents feel they are protected and entitled by law to do it, then its happening to one child too many. I have an extreme viewpoint on this because there is no gray area. A child being assaulted in any way by a parent is simply a crime.

This isn't driving home from the pub with one too many, this altogether more common. I would say 99% of people who drink drive get home safely,however its the minority that creates a problem.

Same thing in this instance.

*Not condoning drink driving, just using it as an example!

How is slapping a child a crime? What law does it break?

BARRETT.50BMG

MagicSean wrote: »

How is slapping a child a crime? What law does it break?

I'm well aware its not penalised by the Irish Judicial system, doesn't mean its right. Its a crime in my eyes.

Apologies, I didn't make that clear enough!

Chuck Stone

MagicSean wrote: »

How is slapping a child a crime? What law does it break?

I think it should be noted that because it's not a crime doesn't mean that hitting kids is a moral or virtuous thing to do.

BARRETT.50BMG

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I think it should be noted that because it's not a crime doesn't mean that hitting kids is a moral or virtuous thing to do.

Couldn't put it better myself!