Should the Catholic Church be removed from schools?

Zorbas

Originally Posted by Zorbas
How can anyone consider it good to raise their child exclusively in their own faith?..

Quote: I think you are confusing two things. Should parents insulate their children from all other faiths and wider religious education? No, of course not. It's important that they learn these things. Should parents be allowed to share their faith with their kids? Of course they should. Unless you are going to start objecting to parents bringing their kids to football matches, or watching x tv programmes in front of them, or vegetarianism, or a love of reading, or any number of a huge number of activities and interests and beliefs.}

I feel sure you do understand the "share their faith" is a bit different than going fishing or watching football or whatever.
Why do you think that most children end up adopting their parents beliefs - its not some passive persuasion or something that the children have worked out. Its because of the fact that inevitably "share their faith" means "You must go to church", "you must say your prayers", "you must not deny or blaspheme your saviour", "you should give thank that you are given the chance of salvation", etc etc.
When you go to a football match there is no demand that "you must support my team" (cept Cork of course) or "you must accept the manager knows best".
Fact is that most parents indoctrinate their children and many of those end up as biggoted, ignorant of other faiths and disrespectful to all but their own.

Zorbas

CORRECTION

Zorbas wrote: »

Originally Posted by Prinz
How can anyone consider it good to raise their child exclusively in their own faith?..

Quote: I think you are confusing two things. Should parents insulate their children from all other faiths and wider religious education? No, of course not. It's important that they learn these things. Should parents be allowed to share their faith with their kids? Of course they should. Unless you are going to start objecting to parents bringing their kids to football matches, or watching x tv programmes in front of them, or vegetarianism, or a love of reading, or any number of a huge number of activities and interests and beliefs.}

I feel sure you do understand the "share their faith" is a bit different than going fishing or watching football or whatever.
Why do you think that most children end up adopting their parents beliefs - its not some passive persuasion or something that the children have worked out. Its because of the fact that inevitably "share their faith" means "You must go to church", "you must say your prayers", "you must not deny or blaspheme your saviour", "you should give thank that you are given the chance of salvation", etc etc.
When you go to a football match there is no demand that "you must support my team" (cept Cork of course) or "you must accept the manager knows best".
Fact is that most parents indoctrinate their children and many of those end up as biggoted, ignorant of other faiths and disrespectful to all but their own.

The Quadratic Equation

Penn wrote: »

I'm an atheist and I'd generally agree with you. I think there should be faith schools. But I think what we need is an inverse of what we have now. I think that ET-type schools should be the norm, and if a community wants a 'faith' school, they should get together, petition for it and have one separate from the ET one.

Wherever there is a genuine demand and need, there should be more ET schools, and wherever there is a Catholic school, where the majority of parents on the board no longer want it to remain a Catholic school and want it to become ET instead, fine it should be sold / traded to an ET board.

Where no such option is available, if local parents want their children raised in ET polytheist/atheist schools, by all means apply for the funding, put in the same hard work and fundraising and setting up as other ET/Catholic/COI parents have done, but the solution is not some sort of underhand confisication of another denomination's school.

If the majority of parents on the board want that school to remain of that denomination, how exactly do you propose to confiscate a Catholic or Church of Ireland school etc. Seeing as these schools are still owned by, and were set up by, local Catholic and Prodestant Parishioners, lands donated, money donated, many hours of labour volunteered etc. ?

lmaopml

Penn wrote: »

I'm an atheist and I'd generally agree with you. I think there should be faith schools. But I think what we need is an inverse of what we have now. I think that ET-type schools should be the norm, and if a community wants a 'faith' school, they should get together, petition for it and have one separate from the ET one. They can teach all the religion they like provided they still meet provisions set out by the Department of Education.

Generally, the issue is that the vast majority of schools are 'faith' schools, which is understandable given our country's history. But that's exactly what it is... history. If the government funds the schools, the schools should be secular. Religion should still be taught, but all religions, as something many people believe in, to give children knowledge of other people's religions and why they may celebrate things differently or do certain things. Then if sector of a community want a school exclusively for their religion, they can get it set up and receive funding from the State provided they meet certain requirements.

I've talked to people who either have or plan to get their child christened because it'd be the best way to get them into the local schools. Where I currently live now, if I had a child, the nearest ET school is almost 30mins away. I could try get them into my local school (5mins away and which a bus goes past) but the odds wouldn't be that great. If they didn't get in there, there's a good chance I'd have to move. Surely that's not right, when ET schools are designed for everyone of all religions. Surely the vast majority of schools should be like that, where everyone is equal, rather than faith schools which may discriminate based on religion. It's not right.

My little rant was moreso in reaction to Mervyn's post lol...I hate being told what's good for everybody - or anybody thinking they could over rule the wish of the people in a democracy by their 'idea' of how things should be for the plebs. Obnoxious, presumtuous and self conceited idiocy imo..not very bright.

Having said that, I also don't have any problems whatsoever if communities see the need to bring more equalisation as far as the needs of that community - than absolutely the boards of the schools in the community along with the Minister should try to do their best to provide for the people and talk about handovers and how best to do that. This must happen...but it has to involve people too...

Personally, I don't object to a 'national' roll out of ET schools either ( In fact, I really would campaign for one in my own area too..) - but in saying that, I don't think it will be something that should or could happen overnight, it may take some time. I do object to the idea that there should be no schools with an ethos 'allowed' on the side of the adjustment.

We can't force things on eachother - and I really think people would be more than open for changeovers to accomodate inline with demand as it grows..

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

A question (which has probably been aswered already, I haven't read anything) - what are the advantages to a child of learning religion in a faith-based school in a multicultral society as opposed to learning it in church?

And why does Catholicism not have children's masses or Sunday schools for kids because lets face it, mass is irrelevant to most of them. (Notice, I said "mass" - not religion or God)

Zorbas

With the financial problems facing the Catholic Church there is every likelihood that the withdrawal from schools will be necessary. Not sure if some schools are making a profit but would assume there are a few of the select upper-class church schools which may be profitable.

Cato Maior

Zorbas wrote: »

With the financial problems facing the Catholic Church there is every likelihood that the withdrawal from schools will be necessary. Not sure if some schools are making a profit but would assume there are a few of the select upper-class church schools which may be profitable.

I'm not sure way financial pressures would force them out. The church no longer pays over any money towards the running costs of schools.

Plowman

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The Quadratic Equation

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The ET syllabus is really a form of Polytheism / Agnosticism. Absolutely nothing wrong with that if that is your preferred belief, and/or you want your child brought up in that philosophy, and we need more ET schools where there is demand for them, but some people would also need to accept that other people also have the same right to educate their children in their own Catholic/Protestant ethos schools if they so wish as well, and that they are also entitled to the same funding as ET beliefs.

Plowman

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Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Thanks for that.

I still believe that you can teach morality and ethics just as well without religion. Especially if the school is multi-cultrual. The direction I see it is that there are not enough religious - and by religious, I mean consciously practicing - people to keep a network of schools going.

The reason for the clarification on "mass" was because I didn't want people to think I was saying that religion is irrelevant to kids, just the mass aspect of it.

Zorbas

Cato Maior wrote: »

I'm not sure way financial pressures would force them out. The church no longer pays over any money towards the running costs of schools.

Good that you correct me - I had no idea how things have changed.
Interesting Google result\:

Church demands €2m fees from national schools
Cash-strapped principals must pay new €2m charge

One principal last night said that the new request for money was "a very heavy-handed top-down request for money from the church. Up to a number of years ago, the church paid money into schools, now they want schools to pay the church."
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/church-demands-euro2m-fees-from-national-schools-2186608.html

Cato Maior

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

The ET syllabus is really a form of Polytheism / Agnosticism. Absolutely nothing wrong with that if that is your preferred belief, and/or you want your child brought up in that philosophy, and we need more ET schools where there is demand for them, but some people would also need to accept that other people also have the same right to educate their children in their own Catholic/Protestant ethos schools if they so wish as well, and that they are also entitled to the same funding as ET beliefs.

I know several Catholic parents that have their kids in ET schools. They receive Catholic religious instruction after-hours. Going on what they say, it is more intensive than the religious instruction my son receives in the Catholic ethos school he attends.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

ISAW

Cato Maior wrote: »

I'm not sure way financial pressures would force them out. The church no longer pays over any money towards the running costs of schools.

The Chuerch were in it for education not profit.
Maybe the atheist Minister wants the hyper rich elite (like himself and his brother- one of the richest people in Ireland both went to Blackrock College one of his children went to St Gerards I think ) to attend "top-class" religious schools while the rest of the great unwashed go to state schools?

The State couldn't afford the levels the church maintains just like they couldn't afford to dump them out of hospitals wher nuns scrubbed the floors for free and there were no like infections. Todays's "minimun wage" non religious hospitals cost more and are germ pits.

Nobody with any money wants to risk being in public health.

ISAW

Cato Maior wrote: »

I know several Catholic parents that have their kids in ET schools. They receive Catholic religious instruction after-hours. Going on what they say, it is more intensive than the religious instruction my son receives in the Catholic ethos school he attends.

Fair enough. And Im suyre the CoI RCC etc. support that. the problem is the State lags behind as usual. My fear is that oif ther are brithers or orders involved the will still be ther in ten years tiume., butan educate together board will leave when their kids get through the system and the whole school might collapse. You need to establish traditions. sadly this is exactly what the anti church element attack.

old hippy

Yes, all religion should be taken out of schools - the sooner the better. If people must indoctrinate their children in these beliefs let it be outside of the educational system.

georgieporgy

I read in a recent newspaper that 400 teachers are being laid off by the State this year for economic reasons.

Were these teachers superflous in the first place or will we just have to make do with less?

Or (horror!!!) will "we" go begging to the church for some free teachers to tide us over in our time of need?

nickcave

old hippy wrote: »

Yes, all religion should be taken out of schools - the sooner the better. If people must indoctrinate their children in these beliefs let it be outside of the educational system.

Absolutely. You can pick up religion in a matter of weeks if you decide to in adult life. Why target children before their critical faculties develop? Children need to be taught mathematics and English etc. because they take years to develop and kids would be at a disadvantage if they didn't learn those things.

But I could decide tomorrow to be a Muslim and be fully fledged by Christmas!

Not for my children.

old hippy

nickcave wrote: »

Absolutely. You can pick up religion in a matter of weeks if you decide to in adult life. Why target children before their critical faculties develop? Children need to be taught mathematics and English etc. because they take years to develop and kids would be at a disadvantage if they didn't learn those things.

But I could decide tomorrow to be a Muslim and be fully fledged by Christmas!

Not for my children.

The exception for having it at schools would be as a subject to inform children of the many fascinating belief systems around the world - but not as instruction. Leave that to when the children are old enough to make their own decisions.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

georgieporgy wrote: »

I read in a recent newspaper that 400 teachers are being laid off by the State this year for economic reasons.

Were these teachers superflous in the first place or will we just have to make do with less?

Or (horror!!!) will "we" go begging to the church for some free teachers to tide us over in our time of need?

Why? Do they have extra teachers that are not state funded?

recedite

philologos wrote: »

There's also the extremely dubious claim in the above post that people should be taught "rationally" and that in their position that Christian belief isn't rational. I have yet to hear from any unbeliever as to why God's existence is fundamentally unreasonable.

Its not unreasonable, but being based solely on faith as opposed to evidence it is somewhat irrational.

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

If the majority of parents on the board want that school to remain of that denomination, how exactly do you propose to confiscate a Catholic or Church of Ireland school etc. Seeing as these schools are still owned by, and were set up by, local Catholic and Prodestant Parishioners, lands donated, money donated, many hours of labour volunteered etc. ?

Very easy. Stop paying the capitation grant and salaries. If they had to pay their own way they would fold up very quickly, and the patron would sell off the buildings. (I'm not recommending that, because religious people pay taxes too, but you asked the question.)

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

The ET syllabus is really a form of Polytheism / Agnosticism.

Bull$hit.

Cato Maior wrote: »

I know several Catholic parents that have their kids in ET schools. They receive Catholic religious instruction after-hours. Going on what they say, it is more intensive than the religious instruction my son receives in the Catholic ethos school he attends.

A very sensible arrangement, and no doubt we will see a lot more of that in the future.

georgieporgy

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Why? Do they have extra teachers that are not state funded?

Yes of course they do. For example in Spain;

The University of Navarra in Pamplona, Spain is a corporate work of Opus Dei which has been rated as one of the top private universities in the country,[82] while its business school, IESE, was adjudged one of the best in the world by the Financial Times and the Economist Intelligence Unit.[83]

And in Ethiopia;

Currently, ADCS runs 49 education institutions ranging from kindergarten to pre-accredited technical and vocational colleges. In terms of students’ admission, the Adigrat Catholic Church contributes over 13,393 students (6,707 male & 6686 female). In addition to this, there are 748 teachers working in the academic year 2010. Of the 49 Catholic schools, 25 schools are directly administered by ADCS while the remaining 24 are administered by religious congregations. Of the total number of students under Catholic Church schools (13,393) 5305 have been learning in Diocesan schools while the remaining 8088 have been learning in congregations. The figures indicate that the involvement of the church in education programming is immense and the contribution to the region is very significant. The church believes that education is a base for development, especially in areas where natural resources are heavily degraded and the livelihood options are very limited. Thus, education programming has been one of the priority engagement areas for the Catholic Church because education is believed to be the basis for all sorts of development.
http://dscholars.com/ethiopia-project/

The Quadratic Equation

old hippy wrote: »

Yes, all religion should be taken out of schools - the sooner the better. If people must indoctrinate their children in these beliefs let it be outside of the educational system.

That's your belief, but why should eveyone elses children be forced to be educated and indoctronated according to your belief ?

The Quadratic Equation

recedite wrote: »

Bull$hit.

Actually the syllubus was scanned in and posted up here recently, thats exactly what it covered.
From Buddha to Mohamed to Vishnu, all taught as equally valid. That's Polythiesm/agnosticsm.
And what is wrong with that, if that's what their parents want ?

The Quadratic Equation

recedite wrote: »

Very easy. Stop paying the capitation grant and salaries. If they had to pay their own way they would fold up very quickly, and the patron would sell off the buildings.

So in other words, you're proposing that only schools that educate children in accordance with your personal philosophy should receive state funding. I see.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

georgieporgy wrote: »

Yes of course they do. For example in Spain;

The University of Navarra in Pamplona, Spain is a corporate work of Opus Dei which has been rated as one of the top private universities in the country,[82] while its business school, IESE, was adjudged one of the best in the world by the Financial Times and the Economist Intelligence Unit.[83]

And in Ethiopia;

Currently, ADCS runs 49 education institutions ranging from kindergarten to pre-accredited technical and vocational colleges. In terms of students’ admission, the Adigrat Catholic Church contributes over 13,393 students (6,707 male & 6686 female). In addition to this, there are 748 teachers working in the academic year 2010. Of the 49 Catholic schools, 25 schools are directly administered by ADCS while the remaining 24 are administered by religious congregations. Of the total number of students under Catholic Church schools (13,393) 5305 have been learning in Diocesan schools while the remaining 8088 have been learning in congregations. The figures indicate that the involvement of the church in education programming is immense and the contribution to the region is very significant. The church believes that education is a base for development, especially in areas where natural resources are heavily degraded and the livelihood options are very limited. Thus, education programming has been one of the priority engagement areas for the Catholic Church because education is believed to be the basis for all sorts of development.
http://dscholars.com/ethiopia-project/

And in Ireland...?

recedite

georgieporgy wrote: »

Yes of course they do. For example in Spain...And in Ethiopia;

Bring em over here so. Free teachers from Ethiopia and Spain! That should go some way to ease the harmful effects of the public service recruitment embargo here. Then maybe we could shift some of the surplus state salaries to newly graduated teachers for the other schools.

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Actually the syllubus was scanned in and posted up here recently, thats exactly what it covered.
From Buddha to Mohamed to Vishnu, all taught as equally valid. That's Polythiesm/agnosticsm.

And the Christian denominations too. They are not teaching polytheism as fact (the belief in several gods) they are explaining about some of the faiths that exist in the world. You originally said "The ET syllabus is really a form of Polytheism / Agnosticism"

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

So in other words, you're proposing that only schools that educate children in accordance with your personal philosophy should receive state funding. I see.

No, here's what I said about it;

recedite wrote: »

I'm not recommending that, because religious people pay taxes too

georgieporgy

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

And in Ireland...?

I think you are missing my point. At the moment we seem to have enough teachers in Ireland ( so the gov sees fit to do a cull). Bear in mind that many of the fine schoolsand hospitals in our country were established by the church in the first place and subsidised heavily by them in the early years.

The State, using our taxes, now manages the staffing funding. It will take some time before they really mess it up. It will have to get really bad before people realise they need help from another source. Like our property bubble, it will be late in the day when Joe Public catches on.

old hippy

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

That's your belief, but why should eveyone elses children be forced to be educated and indoctronated according to your belief ?

I don't worship non-existent deities and fatuous concepts. I don't believe children should be forced to, either. It's child abuse. Something various religions are a dab hand at, come to think of it.

Penn

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

So in other words, you're proposing that only schools that educate children in accordance with your personal philosophy should receive state funding. I see.

I would propose that schools should educate children in accordance with no personal philosophy. Schools shouldn't say which religion is right or that having no religion is right. Religion (all religion) should be taught as a subject but in an impartial way, and specific religious education should come from parents, church or after school programmes.

It's not about indoctrination, or personal philosophies etc... It's about equality. About each child in a state-funded school receiving the same education and with each child having the same chance of obtaining a place in their local school without being discriminated upon due to their religion (or to be more precise, the religion of their parents)

If I had a child, I'd be happy with them saying that in school that day, they learnt about Christianity, provided that the following week they came home and said they learnt about Islam. Teaching religion as something some people believe in, rather than one religion being something you have to believe in.

The Quadratic Equation

Penn wrote: »

If I had a child, I'd be happy with them saying that in school that day, they learnt about Christianity, provided that the following week they came home and said they learnt about Islam. Teaching religion as something some people believe in, rather than one religion being something you have to believe in.

Thats back to teaching children polythiesm/agnosticism again, fine, if that is what you want for your kids, ET schools provide this, but don't expect that all other denominations should also subscribe to your preffered option.

Penn

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Thats back to teaching children polythiesm/agnosticism again, fine, if that is what you want for your kids, ET schools provide this, but don't expect that all other denominations should also subscribe to your preffered option.

I'm talking about State-funded schools. Like I said, what we should have is an inverse of what we have now. All schools should be free from religion. And if enough people in a community want there to be a school dedicated to one religion, it should be set up and it can follow that religion.

Tell me, what benefits do religious schools have over multi-denominational schools? In terms of education, not religion. How does it benefit a child's education to be taught in a religious school rather than an ET school?

The Quadratic Equation

Penn wrote: »

I'm talking about State-funded schools. Like I said, what we should have is an inverse of what we have now.

So am I, but what we should have are more ET / non denominational schools to cater for what some parents want.
Not the dictation to other state funded schools that their particular school's denomination must change to suit anothers philosophy.

Penn wrote: »

All schools should be free from religion.

That is state atheism not secularism. True secularism does not take a pro Atheism/Theism stance.

Penn

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

So am I, but what we should have are more ET / non denominational schools to cater for what some parents want. Not the dictation to other state funded schools that their denomination must change to suit your personal philosphy.

But again, it's nothing to do with my personal philosophy, it's about equality. I see your point, but what we have is State funded Catholic schools, and where there is enough demand for it, a non-denominational school. What I believe we should have are State funded non-denominational schools, and where there is enough demand for it, a Catholic/other school

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

That is state atheism not secularism. True secularism does not take a pro Theism or a pro Atheism stance.

Apologies, I didn't word that bit too great. What I meant was all schools should be run and operated free from any religious ideology. Schools not promoting atheism or any religion above another, but just educating children about religion in general as a subject. Sort of like teaching History rather than just teaching them about why the Renaissance was the best period of time.

The Quadratic Equation

Penn wrote: »

But again, it's nothing to do with my personal philosophy, it's about equality. I see your point, but what we have is State funded Catholic schools, and where there is enough demand for it, a non-denominational school. What I believe we should have are State funded non-denominational schools, and where there is enough demand for it, a Catholic/other school.

No what we have is state funding for Catholic / Prodestant / and ET schools. As far as I can tell some areas do not have enough, or any ET schools, to cater for that particular demand in that particular locality. There may also be Catholic / Prodestant schools where the majority of parents on the board want it to become an ET school, and where this is the case that should be facilitated, but equally where any school wishes to remain Catholic / Prodestant, that should also be facilitated.

Penn wrote: »

Apologies, I didn't word that bit too great. What I meant was all schools should be run and operated free from any religious ideology. Schools not promoting atheism or any religion above another, but just educating children about religion in general as a subject. Sort of like teaching History rather than just teaching them about why the Renaissance was the best period of time.

As I said thats fine for anyone who prefers a school with a Polytheist / Agnostic philosophy etc., but equally Catholic or Prodestant parents etc. also have a right to the same state funding for a school catering for their philosophy, rather than force their children to be schooled in anothers preffered philosophy. One size does not fit all.

Cato Maior

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

No what we have is state funding for Catholic / Prodestant / and ET schools. As far as I can tell some areas do not have enough, or any ET schools, to cater for that particular demand in that particular locality. There may also be Catholic / Prodestant schools where the majority of parents on the board want it to become an ET school, and where this is the case that should be facilitated, but equally where any school wishes to remain Catholic / Prodestant, that should also be facilitated.

As I said thats fine for anyone who prefers a school with a Polytheist / Agnostic philosophy etc., but equally Catholic or Prodestant parents etc. also have a right to the same state funding for a school catering for their philosophy, rather than force their children to be schooled in anothers preffered philosophy. One size does not fit all.

I am fairly confident that I am the only person in my local area that has my particular ethical beliefs. I want my two children to be educated and instructed into that ethic. As the state pays for your children to be educated into your ethic, can I make the same demand of the state? Should the state fund a school in my local area just for my two children?

Keylem

Proposals could have "devastating effect" on Catholic schools: theologian.

Draft proposals made earlier this month by the advisory group of the Forum on primary school patronage, established by Ruairi Quinn, will have “a devastating effect on the Catholic identity of primary schools,” a lecturer at one of Ireland's most prominent teacher training colleges has warned.

Rik Van Nieuwenhove, a theology lecturer in Mary Immaculate College, Limerick, writing in this week's Irish Catholic, argues that the proposals made by the Advisory Group to the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism will involve the loss of Catholic patronage of 258 school “in a first phase.”

But he said, “The really sinister development is the assault on the Catholic ethos of the remainder of schools which will not be officially divested.” One of the Group's proposals was to dispense with Rule 68 of the Rules for National Schools, which state, ''a religious ethos should inform and vivify the whole work of the school.’’

This proposal, Mr Van Nieuwenhove said, is a product of the “secularist presupposition” that religious views are “a private matter that have no bearing on the school as a whole.”

more.....

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Keylem wrote: »

more.....

Mr. Van Nieuwenhowe is scaremongering.

Firstly, the proposals would have a devastating effect on Catholic schools for the Catholic Church, but not nessecarily for the school itself or indeed the child.

Rule 68 is a non-starter, unless the schools attnedees are 100% Catholic. Ineed, why said ethos is so essential is something he declines to comment on.

He goes on to say in the same article:

it is clear that the classes on world religion and ethics will be conducted from a non-religious perspective, i.e., a secularist perspective, and that is not a neutral perspective, but a deeply anti-religious one.

Am I the only person to whom this is anythign but clear?

And what exactly is his evidence that teachign of religion would be anti-religious?

byhookorbycrook

At the moment there no non-denominational schools in Ireland. Educate Together schools teach the "Learn Together " programme.

Two seperate questions here I think 1)Remove the Catholic/COI/Muslim etc. religions from schools?

or 2)Set up a new non-denominational type of school(Not ET,they are mutli-denom) ?

So, no mention of religion whatsoever in any form in the school day?

lmaopml

Cato Maior wrote: »

I am fairly confident that I am the only person in my local area that has my particular ethical beliefs. I want my two children to be educated and instructed into that ethic. As the state pays for your children to be educated into your ethic, can I make the same demand of the state? Should the state fund a school in my local area just for my two children?

Cato, I don't think that's going to happen overnight, that in every location there will be a multi denom school. I do however, feel very strongly that you should not have to travel miles in order to have one, or two or three to cater for the community. It's dreadful that nothing was done about this during the boom when money was being spent left right and centre.....and now unfortunately there are nothing but cuts ( This makes me so angry, especially in relation to sna's)

It must involve the community, the changes etc. - I think the Minister has his work cut out to be honest.

I would like to see at least one ET school in each Parish if at all possible over the next few years...and work from there.

I travel to bring my two children to school/creche, the schools in the locality are not particularly brilliant facility wise imo, so I travel in order to give them the best I have to offer...

Cato Maior

lmaopml wrote: »

Cato, I don't think that's going to happen overnight, that in every location there will be a multi denom school. I do however, feel very strongly that you should not have to travel miles in order to have one, or two or three to cater for the community. It's dreadful that nothing was done about this during the boom when money was being spent left right and centre.....and now unfortunately there are nothing but cuts ( This makes me so angry, especially in relation to sna's)

It must involve the community, the changes etc. - I think the Minister has his work cut out to be honest.

I would like to see at least one ET school in each Parish if at all possible over the next few years...and work from there.

I travel to bring my two children to school/creche, the schools in the locality are not particularly brilliant facility wise imo, so I travel in order to give them the best I have to offer...

But I don't want an ET school. I want the same as the Christians - a school that will educate my children in my ethos. I'll provide the building, but the state will have to fund the teachers and running staff. What's is justified for your children has to be justified for mine. Surely you will support this.

lmaopml

Cato Maior wrote: »

But I don't want an ET school. I want the same as the Christians - a school that will educate my children in my ethos. I'll provide the building, but the state will have to fund the teachers and running staff. What's is justified for your children has to be justified for mine. Surely you will support this.

Lol, so what exactly would you like Cato? There are no non -denominational schools in Ireland, simply because in reality most people are of a denomination. If non-denominational schools are a necessity of the future than it's up to them surely..

...but there are Educate Together Schools that will hopefully be a good force for education in future generations.

It's up to those with 'no denomination' as much as it is to those with a 'denomination' to say why things should change based on the reality of the population and it's history and it's needs today? No? To change things properly and accordingly...not over rule people, but listen to them too ...no grandiose plans please..

Or is there a perfect way that nobody particular is aware of?

Cato Maior

lmaopml wrote: »

Lol, so what exactly would you like Cato? There are no non -denominational schools in Ireland, simply because in reality most people are of a denomination. If non-denominational schools are a necessity of the future than it's up to them surely..

...but there are Educate Together Schools that will hopefully be a good force for education in future generations.

It's up to those with 'no denomination' as much as it is to those with a 'denomination' to say why things should change based on the reality of the population and it's history and it's needs today? No? To change things properly and accordingly...not over rule people, but listen to them too ...no grandiose plans please..

Or is there a perfect way that nobody particular is aware of?

I don't want a non-denomination school. I want to have the same entitlements as Catholic parents. I want the state to fund the education of my children in my ethos. The same as you have. Surely that is not unreasonable.

I'll provide the building etc., but the state will have to pay the teacher. That only seems fair.

lmaopml

Cato Maior wrote: »

I don't want a non-denomination school. I want to have the same entitlements as Catholic parents. I want the state to fund the education of my children in my ethos. The same as you have. Surely that is not unreasonable.

I'll provide the building etc., but the state will have to pay the teacher. That only seems fair.

Well, all I can say is the same as any school ever started in Ireland looking for funding - look for support, get active, take advantage of the free society you live in...you may be surprised with the support you receive too - not everybody is against you, no need to imagine an enemy.

Manach

Offhand, that is the case? If a group of parents meet the set educational & set school environment to the required standard then the state is obliged to fund the incidentals (afaik that covers teachers' wages etc).

Cato Maior

lmaopml wrote: »

Well, all I can say is the same as any school ever started in Ireland looking for funding - look for support, get active, take advantage of the free society you live in...you may be surprised with the support you receive too - not everybody is against you, no need to imagine an enemy.

So you agree that the state ought to pay for a teacher to teach my two children in their own school and in my ethos. Remember now, it is highly unlikely that there is any other person even in the whole county with the same ethos so no one else may wish to attend. Indeed, I know of only one other person in the whole state with the same ethos as me.

Do you believe that the state should pay for every ethos to be accommodated in their own schools in every village and town in Ireland?

Cato Maior

Manach wrote: »

Offhand, that is the case? If a group of parents meet the set educational & set school environment to the required standard then the state is obliged to fund the incidentals (afaik that covers teachers' wages etc).

Yes, but this is only for two children but if Catholics have the right to have the state pay for instruction into their ethos, then so should we.

lmaopml

Cato Maior wrote: »

So you agree that the state ought to pay for a teacher to teach my two children in their own school and in my ethos. Remember now, it is highly unlikely that there is any other person even in the whole county with the same ethos so no one else may wish to attend. Indeed, I know of only one other person in the whole state with the same ethos as me.

Do you believe that the state should pay for every ethos to be accommodated in their own schools in every village and town in Ireland?

NO! I don't. Like I said, it is up to the community to provide a mutlicultural alternative as much as is possible...that the community should be considered too.

The world didn't fit me when I fell on it, neither do I expect you thought it would when you did Cato - when you landed in Ireland. No more than when I landed here.

Cato Maior

lmaopml wrote: »

NO! I don't. Like I said, it is up to the community to provide a mutlicultural alternative as much as is possible...that the community should be considered too.

The world didn't fit me when I fell on it, neither do I expect you thought it would when you did Cato - when you landed in Ireland. No more than when I landed here.

All I'm asking for is equality. Catholics feel entitled to have the state pay for instruction into their ethos. I'm looking for the same. On what basis could the state grant this right to one set of persons but not another? If the entitlement is to one, then it should be to all.

By the way, and just to be clear, I'm Irish born and bred.