The new trafic mess on the Quay.

hardybuck

Sully wrote: »

The night before last I was on the quay just after 10. It was dead bar a construction truck doing something beside the Post Office.

Last night at 11pm it was also very quiet.

For as long as the roadworks have been ongoing I cannot remember a single night there was a traffic jam. I've also been in the queue of traffic during the day outside the tower hotel to get into City Square and found it moves along fairly swiftly.

Also for the past few months there has been ongoing road works in the heart of Cork City and getting around Cork at the best of times is slow and this just makes it worse.

Night time - no problem at all. That's how I got caught, I was used to traffic moving normally in the non-peak hours.

20 mins approx. to get from Waterpark school to the Tower. I shudder to think what it'd be like with the schools back.

kayaksurfbum

On my travels around the country last week. Major road works on the main streets in Mullingar, Athlone, Cork and Cavan. Traffic was all over the place.

Athlone was a joke, diversion signs leading to dead ends.

Mullingar was not much better, 20mins stopped waiting for lights to move on the main street.

Limerick have just finished up their two year long road works in the city centre.

Cork is a nightmare to get into the city centre, major works going on there also.

Galway is an on going traffic disaster everytime i go there. It always gets a mention on the traffic news.

Who thinks this is only a waterford thing? Its not. Its almost everywhere.

hardybuck

kayaksurfbum wrote: »

On my travels around the country last week. Major road works on the main streets in Mullingar, Athlone, Cork and Cavan. Traffic was all over the place.

Athlone was a joke, diversion signs leading to dead ends.

Mullingar was not much better, 20mins stopped waiting for lights to move on the main street.

Limerick have just finished up their two year long road works in the city centre.

Cork is a nightmare to get into the city centre, major works going on there also.

Galway is an on going traffic disaster everytime i go there. It always gets a mention on the traffic news.

Who thinks this is only a waterford thing? Its not. Its almost everywhere.

Whether traffic is an issue in other cities or not, Waterford seem to be taking steps to slow down traffic which is the most bizarre thing.

While I get the need to reduce heavy goods traffic and make the area more comfortable for cyclists and pedestrians, they need to offer more practical solutions than creating traffic jams to force people to avoid the area.

The public transport in Waterford could be better, as could facilities for cyclists. There should be park and ride facilities on the outskirts of the city to give commuters and shoppers an opportunity not to bring their cars into the city centre.

Cabaal

hardybuck wrote: »

Whether traffic is an issue in other cities or not, Waterford seem to be taking steps to slow down traffic which is the most bizarre thing.

It isn't really,
Its not uncommon for people to do 60-80km on the quays, I've seen it countless times.

I've also nearly been hit a few times when crossing on a green man because a person was going too fast to stop safely.

The changes to the quays are to put off trucks using it and to slow down motorists so as to make things safer.

There should be park and ride facilities on the outskirts of the city to give commuters and shoppers an opportunity not to bring their cars into the city centre.

Irish people are inherently lazy when it comes to this sort of stuff thats why alot of people don't see cycling as a viable option and instead choose to come up with excuses such as it rains alot in Ireland.
:rolleyes:

The reality is it rains more in Amsterdam then it does in Dublin in a year.

As for park and rides they are really only used as a last resort by people when they:
a: feel they are forced into it (think tall ships etc)
b: think that traffic will just be so insanely bad that they'd be better off using it

As bad as you think the traffic is now in Waterford it would have to be alot worse for the majority of people to see park n ride as a viable option.

People are unfortunately very very attached to their cars, you've only to watch people go shopping or pick up kids from schools. If they could they'd park beside the checkout or in the class rooms.

hardybuck

Cabaal wrote: »

Irish people are inherently lazy when it comes to this sort of stuff thats why alot of people don't see cycling as a viable option and instead choose to come up with excuses such as it rains alot in Ireland.
:rolleyes:

The reality is it rains more in Amsterdam then it does in Dublin in a year.

As for park and rides they are really only used as a last resort by people when they are:
a: feel they are forced into it (think tall ships etc)
b: think that traffic will just be so insanely bad that they'd be better off using it

As bad as you think the traffic is now in Waterford it would have to be alot worse for people to see park n ride as a viable option.

People are unfortunately very very attached to their cars, you've only to watch people go shopping or pick up kids from schools. If they could they'd park beside the checkout or in the class rooms.

Amsterdam is flat, and cyclists have priority on the roads. In Ireland you have the opposite. You also have more people living in city centres, as opposed to people in Ireland who tend to live in the subarbs and need to use their car as public transport isn't what it should be.

If you compare Dublin now to Dublin 10 years ago, you will see that initiatives like the Luas and the City Bikes have been massive successes. Cities like London actually looked to Dublin as the model for their rollout of a similar scheme.

By putting facilities in place, people will use them. Go to the Red Cow, Sandyford or any of the Dart facilities on the outskirts of Dublin any morning to see how busy they are.

Park and Rides weren't used as a last resort during the Tall Ships, they were unavailable before and are unavailable now.

Cabaal

hardybuck wrote: »

Park and Rides weren't used as a last resort during the Tall Ships, they were unavailable before and are unavailable now.

They certainly operated in 2011,

http://www.waterfordcity.ie/documents/notices/TallShips-Advert.pdf

hardybuck

Cabaal wrote: »

They certainly operated in 2011,

http://www.waterfordcity.ie/documents/notices/TallShips-Advert.pdf

Yeah - for the Tall Ships.

Max Powers

hardybuck wrote: »

Whether traffic is an issue in other cities or not, Waterford seem to be taking steps to slow down traffic which is the most bizarre thing.

While I get the need to reduce heavy goods traffic and make the area more comfortable for cyclists and pedestrians, they need to offer more practical solutions than creating traffic jams to force people to avoid the area.

The public transport in Waterford could be better, as could facilities for cyclists. There should be park and ride facilities on the outskirts of the city to give commuters and shoppers an opportunity not to bring their cars into the city centre.

hardly bizarre, most cities are trying to slow down traffic in its city centre. I applaud the decision that slows down people who think speeding in busy pedestrian areas is ok, swerving between lanes, parking where they like etc. As for park and ride and better public transport, we dont use it in the first place, if we started using city buses, they might be inclined to keep them going more efficiently. Wishing for a gold-plated standard is just away the fairies stuff when you compare our use to other places in Ireland. The options of using ORR/Bridge are there, public transport is there, good few decent bike lanes, we do not need park and ride in Waterford, maybe a carpark in the decent train station would be a good idea.
Biggest problem to traffic in quay is bad drivers, the central median and other things will help. more traffic control measures needed on quay and other places, more things to slow traffic down, force HGVs off road. etc

hardybuck

Max Powers wrote: »

hardly bizarre, most cities are trying to slow down traffic in its city centre. I applaud the decision that slows down people who think speeding in busy pedestrian areas is ok, swerving between lanes, parking where they like etc. As for park and ride and better public transport, we dont use it in the first place, if we started using city buses, they might be inclined to keep them going more efficiently. Wishing for a gold-plated standard is just away the fairies stuff when you compare our use to other places in Ireland. The options of using ORR/Bridge are there, public transport is there, good few decent bike lanes, we do not need park and ride in Waterford, maybe a carpark in the decent train station would be a good idea.
Biggest problem to traffic in quay is bad drivers, the central median and other things will help. more traffic control measures needed on quay and other places, more things to slow traffic down, force HGVs off road. etc

Let me clarify. I do not support driving at high speed through the city centre, that isn't in everyone's interest. However, I'm not interested in creating traffic jams, which are also not in everyone's interest. There should be a balance there. Traffic should be able to move.

If you're actually talking about zig-zagging between lanes, we're actually forcing people do that at the moment as they move up the quay towards the tower. It's also very poorly signposted, and has that crazy 100m or so of bus lane stuck in there for no particular reason.

The ORR is really designed for people to avoid Waterford. For people who're already in Waterford, it is a fair bit out of your way to use it. For me and a large number of the city's popularion, it's an extra 10 miles or so each way. I'll leave that out for the moment though - it'll come good eventually.

Public transport in Waterford does not allow you to get from it's largest population centre, i.e. the Dunmore Road, to either our third level institute or our largest employment centres. Therefore I would not agree that it is good.

These are basics which Waterford can address quickly.

wmpdd3

I will say that the organisation and workers doing the works at the moment are brilliant. I go up the quay every night at 11:20pm and they are often working.

It will be much safer when there is one lane for most of the quay as the lane jumpers will have nowhere bar the bus lane to duck into.

BUT, there is an issue with the lights at the Tower, they have seriously shortened the sequence. This is leading to a back logue as far as Newtown school. Even if you take a detour down by the court house you still get stuck at the Credit Union as there is no space for traffic to turn right.

Lets say you try avoid the quay, then you go down John's hill, up New St, across Mayors walk then Ballybricken and down Bridge St. Does the council really want Dunmore Rd traffic driving through the mainly residential Ballybricken? it seems so.

I finished work at 5pm on Saturday in Ardkeen and went around the ring rd to Harvey Norman, then in by Norwood and down through Grace Dieu. Its the only option. Took me 15 mins to get home, I would have spent 15 mins getting from the park to the Reg.

Cabaal

hardybuck wrote: »

Yeah - for the Tall Ships.

yeah and people only used it because they were given no other options.

If you started a park and ride in Waterford tomorrow it wouldn't have enough usage to make it viable because people would still drive into the city.

Again, people are too attached to their cars. This is why we lack alternatives such as better bike routes and better public transport.

You've only to look at Dublin and see the opposition to the changes they want to make when it comes to making cycling better.

We sadly have an awful car culture in this country, as I said...if people could park at the checkout when they shop they'd do it!

hardybuck

Cabaal wrote: »

yeah and people only used it because they were given no other options.

If you started a park and ride in Waterford tomorrow it wouldn't have enough usage to make it viable because people would still drive into the city.

Again, people are too attached to their cars. This is why we lack alternatives such as better bike routes and better public transport.

You've only to look at Dublin and see the opposition to the changes they want to make when it comes to making cycling better.

We sadly have an awful car culture in this country, as I said...if people could park at the checkout when they shop they'd do it!

Actually a recent poll taken by the Irish Times on the proposed changes to give cyclists more priority in the city centre showed most people were in favour of the changes. Only a sample, but people have voted with their feet and massively supported initiatives such as Dublin Bikes. This is a city who have gobbled up any alternative to the car once the services have been provided.

Sully

hardybuck wrote: »

Actually a recent poll taken by the Irish Times on the proposed changes to give cyclists more priority in the city centre showed most people were in favour of the changes. Only a sample, but people have voted with their feet and massively supported initiatives such as Dublin Bikes. This is a city who have gobbled up any alternative to the car once the services have been provided.

Was that an online poll?

hardybuck

Sully wrote: »

Was that an online poll?

Can't remember, I only remember seeing the result.

As I say, the real proof is in the massive success of the bike and public transport infastructure once implemented.

Sully

hardybuck wrote: »

Can't remember, I only remember seeing the result.

As I say, the real proof is in the massive success of the bike and public transport infastructure once implemented.

Didn't the NTA originally propose such a scheme in Waterford but on investigation determined it wouldn't be feasible as there wouldn't be a high enough uptake and also they failed to secure a sponsor for the scheme?

Cabaal

Got to say I'm having a hard time anything positive about the plans in Dublin from the Irishtimes, lets not forget they've run an awful lot of anti-cycling stories in the last few months

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/new-quays-cycle-lane-to-lead-to-restrictions-for-dublin-motorists-1.1834760

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/mixed-reaction-to-plan-for-two-way-cycle-lane-on-dublin-s-north-quays-1.1835991

The first link above includes an online poll...perhaps the poll you mentioned?

If so because its online we can pretty much discount it as its not going to be a proper representation of people and it can easily be made bias.

While the Dublin bike scheme has been a success as a country we still have to fight against idiots who want helmet wearing made law...the result of which would result in the Dublin Bike scheme going the way of Australia.

hardybuck

Sully wrote: »

Didn't the NTA originally propose such a scheme in Waterford but on investigation determined it wouldn't be feasible as there wouldn't be a high enough uptake and also they failed to secure a sponsor for the scheme?

I believe so, which is very disappointing.

We hear of other Irish cities which are 'too small' to deserve infastructure, and then we point to comparable cities in Europe where the infastructure works well. Look at Cork for example, I would think that a city of 250k could do with a Luas, albeit on a smaller scale, but apparently it is too small.

hardybuck

Cabaal wrote: »

Got to say I'm having a hard time anything positive about the plans in Dublin from the Irishtimes, lets not forget they've run an awful lot of anti-cycling stories in the last few months

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/new-quays-cycle-lane-to-lead-to-restrictions-for-dublin-motorists-1.1834760

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/mixed-reaction-to-plan-for-two-way-cycle-lane-on-dublin-s-north-quays-1.1835991

The first link above includes an online poll...perhaps the poll you mentioned?

If so because its online we can pretty much discount it as its not going to be a proper representation of people and it can easily be made bias.

While the Dublin bike scheme has been a success as a country we still have to fight against idiots who want helmet wearing made law...the result of which would result in the Dublin Bike scheme going the way of Australia.

It possibly was, but there is cycling boom within Dublin, this is not in doubt. Infastructure and the Bike to Work scheme have no doubt contributed to this.

padraig.od

Sully wrote: »

Didn't the NTA originally propose such a scheme in Waterford but on investigation determined it wouldn't be feasible as there wouldn't be a high enough uptake and also they failed to secure a sponsor for the scheme?

A Dublin bike style thing for Waterford? Would be pointless, you can walk from one end of the town to the other in 15 minutes or so. It works in Dublin because its city centre is much (MUCH) larger and it has a huge number of public transport nodes.

Waterford is a total disaster in urban planning terms.

Cabaal

Sully wrote: »

Didn't the NTA originally propose such a scheme in Waterford but on investigation determined it wouldn't be feasible as there wouldn't be a high enough uptake and also they failed to secure a sponsor for the scheme?

Yes they did,

Study is here
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/Technical-Report-and-Potential-for-Waterford.pdf

Previous thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056969524

A spokesperson for the NTA said that following analysis of the potential for a bicycle scheme in Waterford it was concluded that the cost per bike based on the scheme size would be too high.

Cabaal

hardybuck wrote: »

It possibly was, but there is cycling boom within Dublin, this is not in doubt. Infastructure and the Bike to Work scheme have no doubt contributed to this.

errr...there's a cycle boom throughout the country,
The reason why its bigger in Dublin is Dublin holds the bulk of Ireland's population.

Still doesn't change the fact that a Waterford Bikes scheme is not viable, the report even mentions hgv's as a concern (outside of the none viable costs)

hardybuck

Cabaal wrote: »

errr...there's a cycle boom throughout the country,
The reason why its bigger in Dublin is Dublin holds the bulk of Ireland's population.

Still doesn't change the fact that a Waterford Bikes scheme is not viable, the report even mentions hgv's as a concern (outside of the none viable costs)

Which has been facilitated by the Bike to Work scheme also, as well as targeted schemes throughout the country. The Dublin Bikes model is being rolled out in every other city bar Waterford for example.

In Dublin, population has been matched with infastructure, which is being utilised.

Facts

This whole thread annoys me, there is so much misinformation about the works on the quays it isn't even funny. You would think people would actually look at the plans before commenting. Dermot Keyes had a good article in the Munster last week on it.

I think the scheme is very well thought out and I say fair play to the city council for their vision, like anything, you cannot judge until the works are complete! It will be a very good scheme, no right turning between Gladstone street & GPO! Present gaps in median will be filled in, current narrow cycle lane widened etc.

There is never a good time to dig up the main thoroughfare of any city. When was it supposed to be done? Dark nights & over Christmas which is equally a very important tourist & shopping season! All these people saying not during summer would they prefer if a couple of months work was done between FEB & April, work stopped, it looks ****e, starts again in sept until November, then stop again & start again in FEB. I gaurentee the same people would then be giving out that it was taking too long!

hardybuck

Facts wrote: »

This whole thread annoys me, there is so much misinformation about the works on the quays it isn't even funny. You would think people would actually look at the plans before commenting. Dermot Keyes had a good article in the Munster last week on it.

I think the scheme is very well thought out and I say fair play to the city council for their vision, like anything, you cannot judge until the works are complete! It will be a very good scheme, no right turning between Gladstone street & GPO! Present gaps in median will be filled in, current narrow cycle lane widened etc.

There is never a good time to dig up the main thoroughfare of any city. When was it supposed to be done? Dark nights & over Christmas which is equally a very important tourist & shopping season! All these people saying not during summer would they prefer if a couple of months work was done between FEB & April, work stopped, it looks ****e, starts again in sept until November, then stop again & start again in FEB. I gaurentee the same people would then be giving out that it was taking too long!

I guess from my point of view I, I don't see the local papers very much. I am similar to the tourist coming in at this point. All I've seen for the last considerable period of time is a building site and a road layout which is all over the place, followed by traffic jams.

While the final product might be good in the end, it's hard to see it at this point.

Sully

Was heading into town today and timed how long it would take me. Arrived outside Rapid Cabs at 4.10 and there was a long line of traffic, it was your typical busy evening in Waterford. The longest time idling in traffic was at this point, a number of cars in the outer lane pushed over into the inside lane to go straight on causing a bit of a mess in the yellow box. Anyway, I arrived at the Clock Tower at 4.20. It was moving at a fast enough pace from Waterford Crystal and a little lag at the Tower Hotel but after that it was plain sailing and once past the roundabout it was faster again. I got over to the Train Station at 4.24. For me, I didn't find that an exceptionally long wait driving down the city quays with the vast majority of the traffic heading over the bridge towards Dublin & Wexford. This was peak time and during heavy construction work from the clock tower down.

It took me five minutes to get from this point back to City Square Car Park, including obviously looping around the roundabout and arriving at the barriers. I'd normally take the bypass when leaving or entering Waterford so I haven't seen much of the development on the quay but I think it's going much faster than the first phase and appears much more organised. Plenty of warning as you exit from the bridge that the lanes have changed and that roadworks are ahead.

I know this all went out to the public for their input well before construction started but I can't recall what way the plan it but it appears judging by the markings on the road the new island on the middle of the quay will go right up to the middle of the bridge.

sparkling sea

Sully wrote: »

Was heading into town today and timed how long it would take me. Arrived outside Rapid Cabs at 4.10 and there was a long line of traffic, it was your typical busy evening in Waterford. The longest time idling in traffic was at this point, a number of cars in the outer lane pushed over into the inside lane to go straight on causing a bit of a mess in the yellow box. Anyway, I arrived at the Clock Tower at 4.20. It was moving at a fast enough pace from Waterford Crystal and a little lag at the Tower Hotel but after that it was plain sailing and once past the roundabout it was faster again. I got over to the Train Station at 4.24. For me, I didn't find that an exceptionally long wait driving down the city quays with the vast majority of the traffic heading over the bridge towards Dublin & Wexford. This was peak time and during heavy construction work from the clock tower down.

It took me five minutes to get from this point back to City Square Car Park, including obviously looping around the roundabout and arriving at the barriers. I'd normally take the bypass when leaving or entering Waterford so I haven't seen much of the development on the quay but I think it's going much faster than the first phase and appears much more organised. Plenty of warning as you exit from the bridge that the lanes have changed and that roadworks are ahead.

I know this all went out to the public for their input well before construction started but I can't recall what way the plan it but it appears judging by the markings on the road the new island on the middle of the quay will go right up to the middle of the bridge.

That was remarkably speedy, you were very very lucky indeed today

thomasm

I drive down past the Firestation, onto the mall, down the Quay and over the bridge every day sometime between 4.30pm and 6pm. To get over the bridge on a good day takes 10 mins, on a bad day 20 min and a really bad day is 25min.

Getting past the clock Tower is about 75-80% of the time taken

Sully

sparkling sea wrote: »

That was remarkably speedy, you were very very lucky indeed today

I wouldn't be generally held up for much longer than that, tbh. Coming into Waterford was far quicker than getting out.

Cabaal

hardybuck wrote: »

I guess from my point of view I, I don't see the local papers very much. I am similar to the tourist coming in at this point. All I've seen for the last considerable period of time is a building site and a road layout which is all over the place, followed by traffic jams.

While the final product might be good in the end, it's hard to see it at this point.

Which is exactly what you'd see at newlands cross or any other large road improvement scheme.

Its foolish to judge the effectiveness of a new road change when the road change hasn't even been finished.

Imagine if people wanted the red cow interchange stopped on the basis of the problems it caused when it was being built?

padraig.od

Cabaal wrote: »

Which is exactly what you'd see at newlands cross or any other large road improvement scheme.

Its foolish to judge the effectiveness of a new road change when the road change hasn't even been finished.

Imagine if people wanted the red cow interchange stopped on the basis of the problems it caused when it was being built?

Thats an unfair comparison. A more apt one is the reaction from Dubs to the proposed changes to the North Quays.

I think it will be great when it is done, but then again I drive down the quay once a month at best.