The new trafic mess on the Quay.

Squidvicious

fricatus wrote: »

Only minimally. Any traffic engineer will tell you that the carrying capacity of a road is influenced far more by the junctions on it than the road itself (up to a point). Measures such as a "long green" at Rice Bridge in the evenings can easily compensate.




That's fair enough, but an awful lot of people sitting alongside you in the traffic can, and to a certain extent, that's the goal. There are two difficulties with what they're trying though:
- the public transport (especially coming in from north of the river) is sh1te or non-existent,
- the toll to use the Suir Bridge is at a level where people will put up with an awful lot of congestion before they'll use the bypass. Ironically enough they'd probably save that in petrol/diesel, but there's really no way of proving that (unless one of the newspapers, radio stations or WIT want to do some sort of controlled test - even then, there are so many variables at play).

What would really work well is a shadow toll, where the users of the bridge don't pay, but the government pays the toll operator based on traffic numbers. That depends on a cash-strapped government being willing to stump up the cash to improve Waterford's congestion problem - I can't see that happening in a month of Sundays!

As regards public transport, the big problem in Ireland is dispersed, low density housing. Efficient public transport just isn't viable for most of us. I'm really not sure how many who use the old bridge could or would use the new bridge if it was cheaper. It would certainly be interesting to know. A shame we couldn't have a toll free month on the new bridge to see how much that would add to volumes.

hardybuck

Squidvicious wrote: »

As regards public transport, the big problem in Ireland is dispersed, low density housing. Efficient public transport just isn't viable for most of us. I'm really not sure how many who use the old bridge could or would use the new bridge if it was cheaper. It would certainly be interesting to know. A shame we couldn't have a toll free month on the new bridge to see how much that would add to volumes.

As regards the new bridge, that's designed for people who don't live in Waterford, but are heading to Cork.

For the huge population who live between the Park Road out to the Dunmore Road, Williamstown etc., using the bridge adds a good 10k or so onto your journey each way.

7upfree

hardybuck wrote: »

As regards the new bridge, that's designed for people who don't live in Waterford, but are heading to Cork.

For the huge population who live between the Park Road out to the Dunmore Road, Williamstown etc., using the bridge adds a good 10k or so onto your journey each way.

And €2 each way.......

7upfree

wellboytoo wrote: »

How's the self assertiveness course going 7upfree?
Happy Christmas

Many happy returns. Sticks, stones, etc.:):p

wmpdd3

Ferrybank to Ardkeen through town - 5.4km / 9 mins
Ferrybank to Ardkeen ring road - 18.5km / 19 mins and €1.90.

mire

Squidvicious wrote: »

Philosophical question it may be but I'll level with you - I'm an impatient bugger and I hate being stuck in traffic jams:D.

Joking aside, I accept that that's not a reason in itself to blackball the entire scheme. I presume that the Council is trying to create in Waterford what many of us have seen in many continental towns and cities. That's certainly an appealing vision, but what works in one city may not work in another. It's one thing to discourage cars from, say, an Italian town centre with high density housing and decent public transport. The problem is that we have built a very car dependant little nation here. Most of us need cars to go shopping - or else we think we need them and won't be convinced otherwise. I accept that congestion would be a price worth paying for revitalisation but there's a risk of the opposite. Many shoppers will choose the relative lack of traffic congestion in other centres or out of town shopping malls.

I do also think that Waterford has a little less scope to divert traffic away from the centre and the Quay in particular than many cities/towns. We only have one central bridge so a huge percentage of traffic must travel along the Quay or Bridge Street - the second bridge is a very long detour for a lot of traffic and not practical for most of us(but an option, I accept, if the Quay becomes congested).

To use the cliché, only time will tell who's right. So I'll keep an eye out for you in Jordan's in a few years time to either say to you "you were right" or "I told you so". In the meantime, keep an eye for a driver in a jam on the Quay with blood pressure visibly rising - that'll probably be me:)

Yes, you are correct; we have built a very car-dependent nation, and that is entirely the problem. That is why we have allowed loads of inappropriately-located suburban shopping on ring roads to decimate our city and town centres; that is why city centre populations have declined in many places; that is why we walk and cycle so little, and that is why we are the third fattest porky nation in Europe - because we drive more and more and walk less and less; that is why we have such high car dependency; that is why people have come to expect everything to be accessible by car. But this is not a uniquely 'Irish' phenomenon; and what works in other similar-sized European cities with similar characteristics can certainly work here. Small medieval historic cities are not in fact the model - they have notoriously high levels if car dependency. The question is - do we just throw our hands up and say 'ah shur that's what we have now' or do we do something?

Studies and real experiences suggest that when you improve pedestrian facilities and public spaces through capacity adjustments and environmental enhancements there will be two predictable impacts.

1. places improve and eventually recover and become attractive and vibrant

2. motorists complain

The evidence also suggests that contrary to intuition, congestion does not deter consumers all that much. In fact, congestion suggests prosperity and indicates demand for urban uses. Suburban shopping centres do compete with city centres, but in recent years there has been a huge swing in the opposite direction - people want urban experiences [Winterval eg] not always a stale, identikit and limited suburban offers.

Anyway, I hope either way, congestion or not, I'll be sitting in that cosy pub, on that high stool, muttering or humming away to myself, sipping a pint. i'll wave out the window to you. I hope that I'm there and not sitting in a Starbucks or a BB's in a shopping centre foodcourt sipping a giant mug of burnt crap coffee, looking out a drizzle coming down out the window - looking over a surface car park reminsiscing about a great pub that used to be in Waterford.

wellboytoo

7upfree wrote: »

Many happy returns. Sticks, stones, etc.:):p

It was meant as a good humoured joke no nastiness intended, and a compliment on your tenacity.

Squidvicious

mire wrote: »

Yes, you are correct; we have built a very car-dependent nation, and that is entirely the problem. That is why we have allowed loads of inappropriately-located suburban shopping on ring roads to decimate our city and town centres; that is why city centre populations have declined in many places; that is why we walk and cycle so little, and that is why we are the third fattest porky nation in Europe - because we drive more and more and walk less and less; that is why we have such high car dependency; that is why people have come to expect everything to be accessible by car. But this is not a uniquely 'Irish' phenomenon; and what works in other similar-sized European cities with similar characteristics can certainly work here. Small medieval historic cities are not in fact the model - they have notoriously high levels if car dependency. The question is - do we just throw our hands up and say 'ah shur that's what we have now' or do we do something?

Studies and real experiences suggest that when you improve pedestrian facilities and public spaces through capacity adjustments and environmental enhancements there will be two predictable impacts.

1. places improve and eventually recover and become attractive and vibrant

2. motorists complain

The evidence also suggests that contrary to intuition, congestion does not deter consumers all that much. In fact, congestion suggests prosperity and indicates demand for urban uses. Suburban shopping centres do compete with city centres, but in recent years there has been a huge swing in the opposite direction - people want urban experiences [Winterval eg] not always a stale, identikit and limited suburban offers.

Anyway, I hope either way, congestion or not, I'll be sitting in that cosy pub, on that high stool, muttering or humming away to myself, sipping a pint. i'll wave out the window to you. I hope that I'm there and not sitting in a Starbucks or a BB's in a shopping centre foodcourt sipping a giant mug of burnt crap coffee, looking out a drizzle coming down out the window - looking over a surface car park reminsiscing about a great pub that used to be in Waterford.

I'm still going to whinge about the traffic;), but you've convinced me that the scheme may be an ingredient in revitalising the city centre. We'll see how it goes. It does work in other places, I suppose. The problem is, most of us are against change and we need time to get used to it!

Sully

wmpdd3 wrote: »

Ferrybank to Ardkeen through town - 5.4km / 9 mins
Ferrybank to Ardkeen ring road - 18.5km / 19 mins and €1.90.

I wouldn't take the bypass to go to Ardkeen.... and I take the bypass a fair bit to avoid the quays!

cgcsb

It's a great scheme and hopefully it's part of a wider set of improvements to Waterford. A new bike scheme, the roll out of leap cards(due to hit Waterford in February) and a radical improvement of bus services would be another good step in removing the suburbanisation of the 60's-90's. The development plan calls for high density housing on the northbank of the Suir with a new pedestrian bridge, no doubt Ireland's settlement patterns will become more dense as a result of schemes like this. On a much grander scale, Dublin is planning a radical improvement of the Docklands area with 300,000 sqm of new offices and 8,000 new apartments, while simultaneously removing road capacity and improving pedestrian facilities. For a modern nation to have 40% of it's population in rural areas is just unworkable in terms of service provision and protecting the natural environment.

The_Shotz

cgcsb wrote: »

with a new pedestrian bridge,

I'd say we'll be doing well to see this in our lifetime!

I think the Waterford bike scheme was also shelved

http://m.rte.ie/news/2013/0611/456034-public-bike-scheme-cities/

7upfree

Sully wrote: »

I wouldn't take the bypass to go to Ardkeen.... and I take the bypass a fair bit to avoid the quays!

But according to yourself theres no problem with traffic flow on the Quays.........:)

From your post in August.........

"Was on the quays again today just before 4pm so kept an eye on the time. Took exactly 25mins to get from John Street, down to the railway station and back down to the tower hotel. This is despite the City being at it's busiest and despite the quay being further restricted due to a lane closure to facilitate the music in the Plaza".

obezyana

I encountered another ambulance trying to get up the quay this evening it got caught in light traffic by the traffic lights at the clock tower it could barely get through even tho it wasn't busy, the works are not giving me much belief that they are a good thing given the hassle it can be for Emergency vehicles to get through.

cgcsb

The_Shotz wrote: »

I'd say we'll be doing well to see this in our lifetime!<br />
<br />
I think the Waterford bike scheme was also shelved <br />
<br />
http://m.rte.ie/news/2013/0611/456034-public-bike-scheme-cities/

<br />
<br />
The bike scheme will eventually get going. In 2 years the cork limerick and Galway schemes will be due an expansion. Belfast will be getting its own scheme and at that point integration of the schemes with leap will get going. Eventually new schemes will be reviewed, Waterford, Sligo, Athlone and some others will be considered.

cgcsb

obezyana wrote: »

I encountered another ambulance trying to get up the quay this evening it got caught in light traffic by the traffic lights at the clock tower it could barely get through even tho it wasn't busy, the works are not giving me much belief that they are a good thing given the hassle it can be for Emergency vehicles to get through.

Ambulances encountering traffic obstacles is a feature of urban environments the world over.

wmpdd3

But this issue didn't exist when each side on the quay was 2 lanes wide, when each lane moved there was room down the middle for an ambulance. This often happens on the bridge.

wellboytoo

wmpdd3 wrote: »

But this issue didn't exist when each side on the quay was 2 lanes wide, when each lane moved there was room down the middle for an ambulance. This often happens on the bridge.

All the other terrible things that were predicted to happen didn't, so this is all you have to hang onto?

obezyana

cgcsb wrote: »

Ambulances encountering traffic obstacles is a feature of urban environments the world over.

Yes i know that i never said things like this dont happen anywhere else. So let me ask you this, are you suggesting that its OK that the Emergency services are caught up in traffic. Would you like it if some one you knew was in an accident and the Ambulance didn't get to the scene on time because it got caught in traffic on the quay? I'm not against the works on the quay but its clear to see that it has created a major problem for the Emergency services.

wellboytoo

obezyana wrote: »

Yes i know that i never said things like this dont happen anywhere else. So let me ask you this, are you suggesting that its OK that the Emergency services are caught up in traffic. Would you like it if some one you knew was in an accident and the Ambulance didn't get to the scene on time because it got caught in traffic on the quay? I'm not against the works on the quay but its clear to see that it has created a major problem for the Emergency services.

It's not a Major problem, it's an every day problem for all emergency services, as are drivers who panic when they see flashing lights in their mirror and stop in the middle of the road.

obezyana

wellboytoo wrote: »

It's not a Major problem, it's an every day problem for all emergency services, as is drivers who panic when they see flashing lights in their mirror and stop in the middle of the road.

The two times iv encountered it there was no room at all for the ambulance to get through. There was actually no space for anyone to pull in. I was lucky as i seen the lights flashing before it was near me and i happened to be just in front of a parking spot by the GPO so i could pull in but others could not and it took alot of close calls for the Ambulance to eventually squeeze through the traffic.

I get that you are all for these changes on the quay as am I but you honestly dont have a good case that there is no problem there when it comes to the Emergency services getting through the quays. It is a problem a big problem. I can only imagine what it would be like if an Fire engine was trying to make its way along the quay.

Actually can I ask you a question, have you actually seen any of the Emergency services try and get through there when there is traffic?

Minister

I was chatting with an Ambulance Driver last week and he said they are really frustrated at the delays on the Quay due to lack of room. The space is just not there to get past traffic.

Also, he said that they are also conscious of a patient when transporting them; which means that if they are taking a through route via smaller streets in town the patient experiences excessive movement due to frequent turns and some speed humps. This also makes it more difficult if the paramedic is treating the patient enroute to the ED.

cgcsb

obezyana wrote: »

Yes i know that i never said things like this dont happen anywhere else. So let me ask you this, are you suggesting that its OK that the Emergency services are caught up in traffic. Would you like it if some one you knew was in an accident and the Ambulance didn't get to the scene on time because it got caught in traffic on the quay? I'm not against the works on the quay but its clear to see that it has created a major problem for the Emergency services.

That's making a sort of emotive ransom really. Ambulances in all cities generally know where the busiest spots are and how best to avoid them, e.g. by going the wrong way down one way systems, driving up on the foot path etc. If it were as big an issue as you claim, would you be opposed to another lane being added for emergency service vehicles only? Or is it just that the ambulances provide a justification for ploughing a dual carriageway through the river front.

mire

Ambulances have to deal with traffic and road works. It's messy and often frustrating, even dangerous. It's a universal issue. People trying to use this issue as a basis for a wholesale critique of the quay scheme are simply missing the point. Get over it.

obezyana

cgcsb wrote: »

That's making a sort of emotive ransom really. Ambulances in all cities generally know where the busiest spots are and how best to avoid them, e.g. by going the wrong way down one way systems, driving up on the foot path etc. If it were as big an issue as you claim, would you be opposed to another lane being added for emergency service vehicles only? Or is it just that the ambulances provide a justification for ploughing a dual carriageway through the river front.

OK so your constant argument is that the Ambulances have to deal with it as its something that happens in every city. Think about it for a minute......if the Emergency services have to get across to Ferrybank they used to be able to go across the quay pretty much unobstructed but now its no longer like that. Now you could say oh they could go another route but here is the problem, most others routes around the town can be too long to get around or the traffic can be just as bad as it is on the quay at this moment.

Anybody who works in the Emergency service will tell you time is of the essence its one of the most important things and that now is being
hampered by the problem the traffic on the quay is now creating.

It would be great if there was somebody on here who actually worked in the Emergency services and could give their opinion. I reckon (as Minister above has said) they would say its a hindrance to them.

cgcsb

obezyana wrote: »

OK so your constant argument is that the Ambulances have to deal with it as its something that happens in every city. Think about it for a minute......if the Emergency services have to get across to Ferrybank they used to be able to go across the quay pretty much unobstructed but now its no longer like that. Now you could say oh they could go another route but here is the problem, most others routes around the town can be too long to get around or the traffic can be just as bad as it is on the quay at this moment.

Anybody who works in the Emergency service will tell you time is of the essence its one of the most important things and that now is being
hampered by the problem the traffic on the quay is now creating.

It would be great if there was somebody on here who actually worked in the Emergency services and could give their opinion. I reckon (as Minister above has said) they would say its a hindrance to them.

It has been shown, study after study that more road capacity=more cars that'll be attracted to use it. The more cars the more traffic. If the quays remained as a 70's style dualer eventually it'd be too congested for an ambulance to get through anyway. Would you advocate widening then? Just for the odd ambulance?

The traffic will reduce anyway. When the project is finished a great many drivers will cop that this route isn't handy to use and they'll either find a different route or switch to a more sustainable mode, bus or bike.

It's been shown time and time again, take Dublin's O'Connel Street, it's one that was a major traffic blackspot, now most drivers avoid it, indeed most drivers avoid the City Centre entirely.

I have a solution to your problem. Make the remaining traffic lanes on the Quays a high quality bus way. Then there'll be no traffic and plenty of space for an ambulance to wiggle through.

hardybuck

Does anyone have the costs of this project to hand?

hairybelly

Lads, what we need is a big fúckin tunnel that goes from ferrybank under the river that comes out of the band stand in the peoples park!
Then we need to slap a bridge between slieverue and the hospital to connect the ringroads.

tell ya boi we'd be sorted.

obezyana

cgcsb wrote: »

It has been shown, study after study that more road capacity=more cars that'll be attracted to use it. The more cars the more traffic. If the quays remained as a 70's style dualer eventually it'd be too congested for an ambulance to get through anyway. Would you advocate widening then? Just for the odd ambulance?

The traffic will reduce anyway. When the project is finished a great many drivers will cop that this route isn't handy to use and they'll either find a different route or switch to a more sustainable mode, bus or bike.

It's been shown time and time again, take Dublin's O'Connel Street, it's one that was a major traffic blackspot, now most drivers avoid it, indeed most drivers avoid the City Centre entirely.

I have a solution to your problem. Make the remaining traffic lanes on the Quays a high quality bus way. Then there'll be no traffic and plenty of space for an ambulance to wiggle through.

OK so ill go with the ones in bold.

1; Even if one Ambulance is held up and some one unfortunately dies because of it then that's one too many in my opinion.

2; Indeed many may avoid the quays ........and they will go and add traffic to some other part of the town.

3; A lot of people avoid many parts of Dublin for traffic reason but Dublin is congested all of the time and i would love to see any info on traffic levels before and after what you say about O'Connell street.

4; Its not my problem I have no issues driving the quays whether there is traffic or not as being stuck in traffic doesn't bother me, again its the problem that the Emergency services are encountering.

7upfree

cgcsb wrote: »

Ambulances encountering traffic obstacles is a feature of urban environments the world over.

Not where they didn't exist in the first instance.

7upfree

wellboytoo wrote: »

All the other terrible things that were predicted to happen didn't, so this is all you have to hang onto?

No-one's "hanging onto" anything. This scheme is hair-brained. They haven't closed off the end of Conduit Lane yet. For obvious reasons.