Insurance vs untaxed vehicle.

CiniO · 12-12-2011 7:30pm #1

Is generally insurance still valid if car is not taxed?
I went through my policy, and didn't find any word about motor tax being required for policy to be valid.

What in case if car will be in accident, when it was not taxed?
Will insurance company pay-out?

MugMugs · 12-12-2011 7:37pm

Insurers don't care about Motor Tax. It's of no relevance to a claim.

Gate Automation · 13-12-2011 12:45am

CiniO just pay a tax, don't use polish cunning in Ireland

heate · 13-12-2011 12:52am

Gate Automation wrote: »

CiniO just pay a tax, don't use polish cunning in Ireland

Mildly racist no? Eh don't put a car on an Irish road without a tax disc a NCT certificate and an insurance policy it's simply not fair to those who do follow the law.

Gate Automation · 13-12-2011 1:00am

heate wrote: »

Mildly racist no?

absolutely no, because

heate wrote: »

it's simply not fair to those who do follow the law.

CiniO · 13-12-2011 1:03am

Gate Automation wrote: »

CiniO just pay a tax, don't use polish cunning in Ireland

heate wrote: »

Mildly racist no? Eh don't put a car on an Irish road without a tax disc a NCT certificate and an insurance policy it's simply not fair to those who do follow the law.

I'm asking in theory.
It's always good to know.
Reasons for no valid tax might be miscellaneous.
Someone might be just few days over with tax (for example after being sick and unable to tax it), and just be driving to motor tax office to tax it, and have accident on the way.

Beside motor tax is only required on public roads in Ireland.
If someone is driving without tax on private place (like supermarket parking) or abroad, then driving without tax is legal. But wouldn't be nice to find out, that insurance was invalid. That's why I'm asking.

PS - I don't even understand saying "Polish cunning" so I won't comment on it.

Sobanek · 13-12-2011 1:20am

CiniO wrote: »

I'm asking in theory.
It's always good to know.
Reasons for no valid tax might be miscellaneous.
Someone might be just few days over with tax (for example after being sick and unable to tax it), and just be driving to motor tax office to tax it, and have accident on the way.

Beside motor tax is only required on public roads in Ireland.
If someone is driving without tax on private place (like supermarket parking) or abroad, then driving without tax is legal. But wouldn't be nice to find out, that insurance was invalid. That's why I'm asking.

PS - I don't even understand saying "Polish cunning" so I won't comment on it.

"Cunning" czyli przebieglosc / chytrosc.

johnos1984 · 13-12-2011 1:21am

CiniO wrote: »

Someone might be just few days over with tax

I believe there is a grace period where they will let that slide. My broker told me that before but I have no other evidence of it. Although to be fair he also told me having no tax doesn't matter to insurance companies so long as you don't have the mother of all crashes as they will try anything not to have an expensive payout.

Again I don't know how true it was as I always just tax the feckin thing

CiniO · 13-12-2011 1:23am

Sobanek wrote: »

"Cunning" czyli przebieglosc / chytrosc.

Cheers

So "Polish cunning" doesn't seem to be bad thing

Del2005 · 13-12-2011 1:24am

CiniO wrote: »

Is generally insurance still valid if car is not taxed?
I went through my policy, and didn't find any word about motor tax being required for policy to be valid.

What in case if car will be in accident, when it was not taxed?
Will insurance company pay-out?

Since insurance companies are paying out for claims when people are driving with out a valid licence (learner with no accompanying driver, or motorcycle over 25kw on a <25kw licence etc) I can't see then not paying out for not having paid a tax, that they don't get any of.

CiniO · 13-12-2011 1:29am

johnos1984 wrote: »

I believe there is a grace period where they will let that slide. My broker told me that before but I have no other evidence of it.

What I think is being prosecuted for driving without tax on public road is one thing, while having tax for insurance purposes during the crash is another thing"

Although to be fair he also told me having no tax doesn't matter to insurance companies so long as you don't have the mother of all crashes as they will try anything not to have an expensive payout.

Again I don't know how true it was as I always just tax the feckin thing

Maybe that's correct then.
I assume if I crashed into Dublin spire and made it collapse, my insurer would prefer to pay the for the magic-lawyer able to prove that fact I was driving an untaxed car had significant influence on causing the accident, and therefore refuse to pay as a result of major misconduct from my side

However in my policy, and any other insurance policy I've seen, there isn't anything mentioned about motor-tax, so I assume in normal circumstances it's not going to cause any hassle.

johnos1984 · 13-12-2011 1:33am

Are you sure there isn't a clause in the small print that the car must be kept in a road worthy condition, taxed and NCT'd.

I've not looked but I expect there is something vague like that in there for them to get out of any sticky situations

coylemj · 13-12-2011 1:34am

Del2005 wrote: »

Since insurance companies are paying out for claims when people are driving with out a valid licence (learner with no accompanying driver, or motorcycle over 25kw on a <25kw licence etc) I can't see then not paying out for not having paid a tax, that they don't get any of.

+1 Apparently it's not for the want of trying but there are legal limits on the grounds on which insurance companies can weasel out of paying a claim - driving on an expired licence and/or tax disc are not ones they can use, I guess because neither are factors which have any bearing on risk.

CiniO · 13-12-2011 1:51am

johnos1984 wrote: »

Are you sure there isn't a clause in the small print that the car must be kept in a road worthy condition, taxed and NCT'd.

I went through my insurance policy really throughly more than once, and I'm sure there isn't such thing.
They indeed require car to be in road worthy condition, but there isn't anything mentioned about tax or NCT.

johnos1984 · 13-12-2011 1:56am

CiniO wrote: »

They indeed require car to be in road worthy condition

Thing is without tax or NCT it shouldn't be on the road therefore in their eyes it may not be road worthy.

I'm not certain if this is how they will see it but I'd imagine that is their get out of jail card right there if they needed it.

CiniO · 13-12-2011 2:24am

johnos1984 wrote: »

Thing is without tax or NCT it shouldn't be on the road therefore in their eyes it may not be road worthy.

I'm not certain if this is how they will see it but I'd imagine that is their get out of jail card right there if they needed it.

But without tax it might be on a road which is not public road in Ireland fully legally.
So if accident happens in private living estate or supermarket parking, their out of jail card for no tax can't work.

johnos1984 · 13-12-2011 2:26am

CiniO wrote: »

But without tax it might be on a road which is not public road in Ireland fully legally.
So if accident happens in private living estate or supermarket parking, their out of jail card for no tax can't work.

I know where you are coming from and it raises an interesting point. I've flicked through my own policy and can't see anything other than the car should be in a roadworthy condition. No mention of tax or NCT

pudzey101 · 13-12-2011 3:39am

Well iv been in an accident recently and hadn't had the car taxed since October ( stupid yeah i know ) and had no bother at all ( as i wasn't the one in the wrong in the accident)
NCT is the only thing that proves the car is in road worthy condition
TAX is a legal requirement for driving your car in public places and has nothing to do with insurance

challengemaster · 13-12-2011 4:01am

There's no "grace period" for not having tax, it's a myth.

There's also no valid reason for not having the car taxed if you're driving it. Cinio, you can tax your car online or by post if needs be, you do not need to drive to the local MTO.

The only cases where leeway seems to be given is if the car is newly bought (within the last few days) and the tax had expired. Even then it's garda discretion afaik.

CiniO · 13-12-2011 2:17pm

pudzey101 wrote: »

Well iv been in an accident recently and hadn't had the car taxed since October ( stupid yeah i know ) and had no bother at all ( as i wasn't the one in the wrong in the accident)

I had bit opposite situation few months back.
My wife crashed a car on 30th of June. It was taxed until 31st September.
Insurance assessor was quick enough, and issued a write-off form on 1st July (just one day later).
Unfortunately motor tax office couldn't refund remaining 3 months tax, as they can only refund full 3 months, while car was written of on 1st July, so there was one day missing.
My insurer was willing to refund this motortax, but they requested a little statement from my motor-tax office that motor-tax office can't refund a motortax. Unfortunately, after asking them 3 times by now, it's been almost half a year, and I still didn't get that statement.

Mycroft H · 13-12-2011 4:17pm

CiniO wrote: »

But without tax it might be on a road which is not public road in Ireland fully legally.
So if accident happens in private living estate or supermarket parking, their out of jail card for no tax can't work.

If its accessible by a public road at the time of the accident then its deemed a public place.

challengemaster wrote: »

There's no "grace period" for not having tax, it's a myth.

There's also no valid reason for not having the car taxed if you're driving it. Cinio, you can tax your car online or by post if needs be, you do not need to drive to the local MTO.

The only cases where leeway seems to be given is if the car is newly bought (within the last few days) and the tax had expired. Even then it's garda discretion afaik.

Well the garda can fine you for no tax from as soon as it expires but can only seize the vehicle if its more then two months out of date.

What most people define as the grace period is the period that you will only get a fine for out of date tax. Thus allowing them to drive for that month, declare it off the road if they don't get stopped and get in effect, a free months tax.

CiniO · 13-12-2011 4:28pm

BX 19 wrote: »

If its accessible by a public road at the time of the accident then its deemed a public place.

Maybe it's deemed a public place, but it's still not a "public road", so there is no need for motortax.

Motor tax is only required on public roads in Ireland from Irish registered vehicles.

1.—(1) On and after the 1st day of January, 1953, there shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be charged, levied and paid in respect of mechanically propelled vehicles used on public roads duties of excise at the rates specified in the Schedule to this Act.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1952/en/act/pub/0024/print.html

coylemj · 13-12-2011 5:09pm

CiniO wrote: »

Maybe it's deemed a public place, but it's still not a "public road", so there is no need for motortax.

Correct, you can be done for licence, insurance and drunk driving when driving in a shopping centre or multistorey car park if it is then open to the public 'with vehicles', that being the essential qualifier which makes it a public place and whether you have to pay to enter makes no difference. However as private property, neither is a 'public road', the qualifier for which is that the maintenance of the road is the responsibility of the local authority.

So when driving in shopping centres, hotel car parks, private estates etc. there is no obligation to display a tax disc as you are not on a public road.

BX 19 wrote: »

If its accessible by a public road at the time of the accident then its deemed a public place.

The driveway of your house is accessible from the public road, does that make it a public place?

galwaytt · 13-12-2011 7:19pm

johnos1984 wrote: »

Are you sure there isn't a clause in the small print that the car must be kept in a road worthy condition, taxed and NCT'd.

I've not looked but I expect there is something vague like that in there for them to get out of any sticky situations

Nope, there isn't, and they can't.

RTA enforcement and Revenue enforcement is a matter for the Civil Authorities (Garda, Revenue, etc etc) only, and an insurer has no part in it.

johnos1984 wrote: »

I know where you are coming from and it raises an interesting point. I've flicked through my own policy and can't see anything other than the car should be in a roadworthy condition. No mention of tax or NCT

Q.E.D.

Believe me, if they could, they would.....!

galwaytt · 13-12-2011 7:25pm

coylemj wrote: »

The driveway of your house is accessible from the public road, does that make it a public place?

No, it is not a public place - it is private property, reserved for the use, access and enjoyment of it's owners. The fact that it has a gate - or not - and whether it is publically accessible, does not make it a public place.

D'ya get me ?

coylemj · 14-12-2011 1:12am

galwaytt wrote: »

No, it is not a public place - it is private property, reserved for the use, access and enjoyment of it's owners. The fact that it has a gate - or not - and whether it is publically accessible, does not make it a public place.

D'ya get me ?

Did you look at the post I was replying to? It was this contribution....

BX 19 wrote: »

If its accessible by a public road at the time of the accident then its deemed a public place.

To which I responded....

coylemj wrote:

The driveway of your house is accessible from the public road, does that make it a public place?

The issue in case you forgot is where you need to display a current tax disc.

Mycroft H · 14-12-2011 12:59pm

galwaytt wrote: »

No, it is not a public place - it is private property, reserved for the use, access and enjoyment of it's owners. The fact that it has a gate - or not - and whether it is publically accessible, does not make it a public place.

Road Traffic Act defines a Public Place as....
“public place” means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0003.html

Now take from that what you will. Public place looks like a place that you can give a member of the public permission to access, thus making it a public place for them.

CiniO · 14-12-2011 1:01pm

BX 19 wrote: »

Road Traffic Act defines a Public Place as....
“public place” means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0003.html

Now take from that what you will. Public place looks like a place that you can give a member of the public permission to access, thus making it a public place for them.

That's all correct.
But what difference does it make in relation to this thread, as motor tax is not required in "public place".
Motor tax is only required on "public road".

Insurance vs untaxed vehicle.

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