The Last of Us

Retr0gamer

Evade wrote: »

Spec Ops is arguably more guilty of doing what you claim the ending of tLoU does with the

white phosphorus mortar set piece

.

EDIT: tok9 got there before me.

You're just picking out the moments it didn't succeed and not on the parts where it does and anyway the writer has given a reason as to why it was like that.

Evade

Retr0gamer wrote: »

You're just picking out the moments it didn't succeed and not on the parts where it does and anyway the writer has given a reason as to why it was like that.

Isn't that what you're doing with tLoU? I'd let that slide if the whole point of the game wasn't all about the ability to choose.

johnny_ultimate

And to be fair there are strong thematic and narrative reasons why The Last of Us provides you with that 'lack of choice' too, as discussed in several posts above - even if you feel the execution is off, the intention clearly isn't. Just because Spec Ops is explicitly meta doesn't mean the tools it comments on don't have their value in a less deconstructive text.

You're just picking out the moments it didn't succeed and not on the parts where it does and anyway the writer has given a reason as to why it was like that.

Didn't you just admit you're being pedantic about one short scene in a much longer game

Retr0gamer

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

And to be fair there are strong thematic and narrative reasons why The Last of Us provides you with that 'lack of choice' too, as discussed in several posts above - even if you feel the execution is off, the intention clearly isn't. Just because Spec Ops is explicitly meta doesn't mean the tools it comments on don't have their value in a less deconstructive text.

Well my whole point is I feel the execution is very poor.

Didn't you just admit you're being pedantic about one short scene in a much longer game

Yes but I'm not talking about the times it doesn't work but the times when it does. Saying, well in this moment it didn't work is just a strawman argument. There's a few scenes when spec ops really succeeds, picking just that scene is just holding up the strawman. Anyway I feel MGS3 is closer to what Last of Us should have done.

Evade

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Yes but I'm not talking about the times it doesn't work but the times when it does. Saying, well in this moment it didn't work is just a strawman argument. There's a few scenes when spec ops really succeeds, picking just that scene is just holding up the strawman. Anyway I feel MGS3 is closer to what Last of Us should have done.

You point, if I'm not mistaken, is that it's presented like a choice when it isn't. That's exactly the same as that part of Spec Ops. The difference is one game has choices the other doesn't. There are other parts of Spec Ops where I would have liked to have been given a choice too, the water raid for one.

Timmyctc

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well my whole point is I feel the execution is very poor.



Yes but I'm not talking about the times it doesn't work but the times when it does. Saying, well in this moment it didn't work is just a strawman argument. There's a few scenes when spec ops really succeeds, picking just that scene is just holding up the strawman. Anyway I feel MGS3 is closer to what Last of Us should have done.

But, not saying you're intentially doing this btw, but that is word for word, what you are doing RE: that scene in TLoU. I think you've even mentioned above, the whole game up to that point was linear and you felt personally that they gave you too much freedom at the end.

cloud493

This explains why I adore the last of us

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKzVwbs-lsg

Retr0gamer

Evade wrote: »

You point, if I'm not mistaken, is that it's presented like a choice when it isn't. That's exactly the same as that part of Spec Ops. The difference is one game has choices the other doesn't. There are other parts of Spec Ops where I would have liked to have been given a choice too, the water raid for one.

That's not my point at all. The

white phosphorous

scene in spec ops does suffer from pretty much the same issues as last of us. What I'm talking about are the scenes when spec ops gets it right for instance

the mob scene and hanging scene

. Let me explain it again. If you give the player freedom a player will test those boundaries. If those boundaries breakdown then the whole illusion of the game breaks down. It's basic game design. If you test the boundaries of that scene in the last of us it fails to react to the player and it breaks down. When spec ops is at its best it takes into account what the player can do and reacts to it. That's good game design.

Again I'm not bemoaning the lack of choice in the scene in the last of us. In fact it would be better with no choice. The problem is that the scene breaks down if the player doesn't follow the script. Up until that point the game was very careful to avoid that. Even stuff like the animation system which IMO is the best in the world is there to avoid the player looking stupid moving around and breaking that illusion. I just feel its a major shame it stumbled at that final hurdle.

Timmyctc wrote: »

But, not saying you're intentially doing this btw, but that is word for word, what you are doing RE: that scene in TLoU. I think you've even mentioned above, the whole game up to that point was linear and you felt personally that they gave you too much freedom at the end.

I freely admit to only looking at that scene n the last of us but that isn't what a strawman argument is.

Timmyctc

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I freely admit to only looking at that scene n the last of us but that isn't what a strawman argument is.

Just seemed like you were misrepresenting the game based off your interpretation of a single scene is all brochacho

Evade

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I still can't see how Spec Ops did it better. The choices are less of the game intelligently reacting to your decisions and more scripted binary decisions.

Retr0gamer

Evade wrote: »

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I still can't see how Spec Ops did it better. The choices are less of the game intelligently reacting to your decisions and more scripted binary decisions.

Which is the basis behind any computer program. Spec Ops at least reacted, even if there's only a few outcomes and the game continues on as normal at least they accounted for them. Last of Us didn't. There's two ways of avoiding that, do what spec ops did or else just don't give the player that freedom.

Well at least I'm not the only one that felt the same:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2013/06/17/the-real-reason-the-last-of-us-deserves-an-8-out-of-10-spoilers/

tok9

I don't think people are really disagreeing with you.

It's just you have selectively chosen the scenes in Spec Ops that suit your argument.

Evade

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Which is the basis behind any computer program.

I wasn't clear there. By scripted binary decisions I didn't mean it in the programming sense. I meant it in the sense that we'll give the player a token A or B choice here.

Pac1Man

I don't envy those who critique a game that deeply. Yee will never be satisfied.

cloud493

The Last Of Us and Spec Ops sure are great games amirite :pac:

johnny_ultimate

Pac1Man wrote: »

I don't envy those who critique a game that deeply. Yee will never be satisfied.

You'd swear it's actually a bad thing. There's a real joy in taking a proper look at any given game and figuring out why you did or didn't like it. To me it's a waste consuming any media without giving it the proper attention (well, as long as it deserve the attention). Far from making you a joyless fusspot who doesn't like anything it actually can really enhance your response to a game and what it does, and help you appreciate it on another level altogether. If I like or don't like a game, I sure as hell want to try and figure out why that is. Being critical does not equate to simply being contrary. I'd always much rather read someone's reasoned criticism of a game, even if I disagree with it, than someone simply stating they liked or disliked it and leaving it at that.

Retr0gamer

Evade wrote: »

I wasn't clear there. By scripted binary decisions I didn't mean it in the programming sense. I meant it in the sense that we'll give the player a token A or B choice here.

It doesn't matter that there is a choice or even if there wasn't a choice. The point is Yager recognised the scenarios in which those scenes could be broken and ensured that no matter what the player did there was no way to break those scenes like you could in last of us. Even if there was only the one choice as long as the player can't break that illusion then the designer has succeeded

Pac1Man wrote: »

I don't envy those who critique a game that deeply. Yee will never be satisfied.

Yeah I am doing that. Never said I wasn't. Spec Ops isn't perfect so why not selectively choose the parts where I felt it got it right and compare it to where I thought last of us got it wrong. I'm not comparing spec ops to last of us, just comparing that scene in the last of us to scenes where I thought spec ops did it right. Sure spec ops might not have got it wrong but that's completely besides the point so im not sure what the problem there is???

tailgunner

When I reached the end, I was very aware of what the game "wanted" me to do, but I didn't really want to go along with it. I wasn't deliberately trying to break the game (maybe it was that I had a slightly different interpretation of the character than the developers had intended), but when I reached that point

I decided to shoot one of the doctors in the hand instead of killing him, and he dropped as if he had taken a shotgun blast to the chest

.

I have to say it did break the illusion. The game had done so very many things right up until that point, so I remember being a little disappointed.

.ak

One thing I will say about this debate is... I totally forgot to play Spec Ops! Played the demo and seemed like a decent game, then totally forgot about it. Will pick it up 2nd hand when I get paid.

Kiith

You didn't have to shoot anyone in that scene, did you? I remember

walking up the one doctor, knifing him, and leaving the others alive. Pretty sure he was the only one i killed.

. It's been a while, so maybe i'm wrong though.

johnny_ultimate

Kiith wrote: »

You didn't have to shoot anyone in that scene, did you? I remember

walking up the one doctor, knifing him, and leaving the others alive. Pretty sure he was the only one i killed.

. It's been a while, so maybe i'm wrong though.

You have to

kill the doctor with the scalpel. The others you can leave be or kill.

tok9

Ya that's right Kilth.. that was one of the ways of doing it. Pretty sure I did the same.

tailgunner

Kiith wrote: »

You didn't have to shoot anyone in that scene, did you? I remember

walking up the one doctor, knifing him, and leaving the others alive. Pretty sure he was the only one i killed.

. It's been a while, so maybe i'm wrong though.

I can't remember either to be honest. The main issue for me is that regardless of what you choose to do, the game responds exactly the same way. So if you make the "wrong" decision, it's a bit jarring.

Mickeroo

tailgunner wrote: »

I can't remember either to be honest. The main issue for me is that regardless of what you choose to do, the game responds exactly the same way. So if you make the "wrong" decision, it's a bit jarring.

Maybe it could have been done better but the whole game is on rails in terms of story anyway so I don't really see an issue. I gunned all the doctors without hesitation anyway

Kiith

I happily killed the doctor, but had no intention of killing the staff. He waved the scalpel at me iirc. Didn't go through all that shooting to get stabbed. Plus, he kind of had it coming. I don't care if he was trying to save the world...he (or that woman whose name i don't remember) didn't give Ellie a choice.

Actually, 'happily' killed is probably not a good word to use there...

FlyingIrishMan

Kiith wrote: »

I don't care if he was trying to save the world...he (or that woman whose name i don't remember) didn't give Ellie a choice.

Neither did Joel...

.ak

Well I hope none of you reading this haven't played it yet.

Otacon

In lieu of actual comparison footage...

Otacon

Otacon wrote: »

In lieu of actual comparison footage...

I don't get it, the motion capture is the same but the scene is different

Blazer

as in XB1 on the right?