Dunnes Get Their Comeuppance

Chucky the tree

I'm not sure how anyone can defend Dunnes here, the plastic bag regulation is very clear in what is acceptable and what isn't. It even states it in the OP link which I can only assume most people here didn't read. Here's the actually law:

2) An accountable person shall be accountable for and liable to pay the levy.
4. The amount of the levy shall be 15 cent for each plastic bag.

5. The following classes of plastic bags are excepted from the definition of a plastic bag
(a) plastic bags solely used to contain-
(i) fresh fish and fresh fish products,
(ii) fresh meat and fresh meat products, or
(iii) fresh poultry and fresh poultry products

provided that such bags are not greater in dimension than 225mm in width (exclusive of any gussets), by 345mm in depth (inclusive of any gussets), by 450mm in length, (inclusive of any handles);

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0605.html

I've no idea how that is badly worded or open to interpretation. It seems very clear to me that any bag over those dimensions comes under the plastic bag levy.

Morlar

snubbleste wrote: »

What's the difference between frozen carrots in a plastic bag and putting fresh carrots in a plastic bag?

Apparently about 22c.

msg11

Tesco were up **** creek about 1/2 years ago over this and got handed a big fine also.

Most stores where using the bags on a roll, when they should be using the 'pinch and pull' bags in the brown box.

There was a circular there last year to all stores asking them to make sure they are not using the bags on a roll or placing the bags on the roll on the bakery towers or stands that you pick up your bread from. As it would open a barrel of **** with revenue. It also stated, not too use the bags on a roll for meat, only bags marked 'meat' should be used on the counters even the chicken bags are marked 'chicken'.

In my option, this is the biggest load of ****. Dunnes/Tesco/Supervalu, when this law was brought in it was to tackle people using carrier bags when they didn't need to use them. Are the government honestly expecting, people to bring there own bags for meat and fruit and veg ?

They have the time of day for a supermarket chain that has made a little mistake on there definitions of the law regarding 'bags', yet no one/organisation has been convicted/fined for the absolute disaster the banking sector has brought too the tax payer.

I can see supermarkets just not taking the risk and doing away with bags altogether and if you buy a bit of meat I wouldn't be suprised to see the price of your meat, the price of the bag and then a total in the near future. And people are right this will cost jobs, new and old.

So on that well done!

Seifer

Whole first page of replies and no one read the article in the OP? It clearly states that they were not fined over bags used to contain fresh meat or fruit/veg.

xsiborg

just after getting back from shopping in tesco there and they've doubled the price of their "bags for life" strong bags from 35c to 70c, the girl on the checkout behind me turned round and asked "when did this come in?", "last night" she was told, by the girl that was serving me, her manager only told her this morning.

i wonder is this related?

personally i think this whole bag levy nonsense is ridiculous! :mad:

msg11

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'm not sure how anyone can defend Dunnes here, the plastic bag regulation is very clear in what is acceptable and what isn't.

Section 5 is what has everyone up in arms.

On one hand it's saying the following bags are exempt from charges. Then it starts to state the size a bag has to be. Why not just state what size the bag should be and anything above it is taxable.

I can honestly see where Dunnes are coming from on this.

They where not charging for bags on the following
(i) fresh fish and fresh fish products,
(ii) fresh meat and fresh meat products, or
(iii) fresh poultry and fresh poultry products

Which are exempt from charge under section 5.

They where charging for shopping carrier bags, which are not exempt from section 5.

Revenue are saying that Dunnes were giving out free bags. In my five years working in a supermarket, I have never ever ever seen anyone carry or attempt to carry there shopping home in them small bags.

smash

the groutch wrote: »

it's about time that they were shown that nobody is above the law.
will also be interesting to see will we see the return of the 22c bags to Dunnes' tills now that they know they can't avoid paying tax on them.

Do you get pleasure from seeing people being screwed over? You know the consumer will foot the bill for this.

Chucky the tree

msg11 wrote: »

Section 5 is what has everyone up in arms.

On one hand it's saying the following bags are exempt from charges. Then it starts to state the size a bag has to be. Why not just state what size the bag should be and anything above it is taxable.

I can honestly see where Dunnes are coming from on this.

They where not charging for bags on the following
(i) fresh fish and fresh fish products,
(ii) fresh meat and fresh meat products, or
(iii) fresh poultry and fresh poultry products

Which are exempt from charge under section 5.

They where charging for shopping carrier bags, which are not exempt from section 5.

Revenue are saying that Dunnes were giving out free bags. In my five years working in a supermarket, I have never ever ever seen anyone carry or attempt to carry there shopping home in them small bags.

It says it is excepted if it is carrying meat, fish etc and it is not bigger than the stated size. It doesn't say or even suggest you can carry meat and fish in a bag of any size you want and it will be exempt.

msg11

Seifer wrote: »

Whole first page of replies and no one read the article in the OP? It clearly states that they were not fined over bags used to contain fresh meat or fruit/veg.

But the bags where provided with the sole intention of been used to carry either fresh fruit/veg or fresh meat. Not too be used as carrier bags. If they had these bags placed at the checkouts with there sole use been used as a carrier bag then I would have a problem.

Are supermarkets going to have to hire staff to make sure you use there bags right if you want them free?

CardBordWindow

As this has been going on for a few years, the odds are that the 36 million euro fine will probably just go back into the Revenue as wages!

sbsquarepants

xsiborg wrote: »

personally i think this whole bag levy nonsense is ridiculous! :mad:

I very much disagree. I think it's been a huge success, where i live used to be littred with literally thousands of plastic bags, caught in every hedge, fence and tree - it was disgusting. Since the bag levy came in the place has cleaned up no end. It was a master stroke.
And for all the astute economic obsevers commenting on the charges being passed on to the consumer. Who do you think was paying for the bags anyway?
This is just one more example of dunnes thinking the rules don't apply to them. Good enough for them!

msg11

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It says it is excepted if it is carrying meat, fish etc and it is not bigger than the stated size. It doesn't say or even suggest you can carry meat and fish in a bag of any size you want and it will be exempt.

So what size where the bags Dunnes had? A few CM over or something, come on this is so PC, Christ sake a 36 Million Euro fine for bags that hold a few mushrooms. Dunnes give out free paper bags if you ask them for them.

I feel sorry for the staff that are going to lose there jobs over this PC bull****. They should have been given a warning, if they didn't listen then fine them.

Plazaman

I think the size of the bags Dunnes had for meat, veg etc is the crux of the matter here. Dunnes used to have the small bags on a roll but they changed supplier and now some of the veg bags now are nearly the same size as the checkout bags and exceed the size limits in the regulations.

It'll be interesting to hear the clarification that comes out of the case if it is a case that if they go back to the older bags will all be right again or will us saps of customers had to fork out yet again.

db

Seifer wrote: »

Whole first page of replies and no one read the article in the OP? It clearly states that they were not fined over bags used to contain fresh meat or fruit/veg.

Seems to me like you are the one who didn't read the article. It clearly states that they were fined over bags used to carry loose items, found around the shop floor.

But last night High Court judge Mr Justice John Hedigan ruled that the levy was not limited to carrier bags provided at the till.
He said that bags used to carry loose items, found around the shop floor, are also subject to the charge if they are above regulation size.
The State had earlier argued the disputed bags used by Dunnes were actually suitable for use at the tills.

Dunnes tend to use bags with handles for fruit and veg. The bag size in the legislation includes the handles so it looks like this is where Dunnes were caught out.

Chucky the tree

msg11 wrote: »

So what size where the bags Dunnes had? A few CM over or something, come on this is so PC, Christ sake a 36 Million Euro fine for bags that hold a few mushrooms. Dunnes give out free paper bags if you ask them for them.

I feel sorry for the staff that are going to lose there jobs over this PC bull****. They should have been given a warning, if they didn't listen then fine them.

No idea what size the bags were. Doesn't make a difference really, they broke the rules. Maybe Dunnes should have provided paper bags for their fish, meat, fruit etc if they didn't want to be fined.

CrazyRabbit

The company argued that the definition of a plastic bag was so uncertain that it rendered the regulations invalid.

Really? If it's plastic, has 3 sealed edges and 1 open edge, then it's a damn plastic bag. How hard is it?

ScumLord

msg11 wrote: »

Are supermarkets going to have to hire staff to make sure you use there bags right if you want them free?

To be fair all they have to do is make sure they don't order any bags over the size and the problems solved. It may be the case Dunnes bought millions of bags to get a good price and were waiting to run out of those bags. If that was the case I think they should have gotten some leniency so they could use up the stock they have as everyone could say they'd order the correct sizes the next time. It wouldn't cause people to start littering in that short space of time, everyone is used to preserving bags at this stage it's just habit.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Maybe Dunnes should have provided paper bags for their fish, meat, fruit etc if they didn't want to be fined.

That doesn't sound like something they could do for hygiene reasons.

Fighting Irish

gigino wrote: »

+1. Tesco and all the little shops give these little thin flimsy bags out for free too.
Its just another tax by the government....the workers in Dunnes and all the shops are struggling to make a living, and have no pensions ; by contrast the average public servant salary is 48k and they get great pensions by comparison. If every shop, inc little shops like my local greengrocer, has to pay these extra charges its just another tax to the public service.

lol, lets find a way to complain about public servants in a plastic bag thread :pac:

K-9

Fighting Irish wrote: »

lol, lets find a way to complain about public servants in a plastic bag thread :pac:

, that's the second comment!

And not a mention of the private sector Dunnes's Accountants who didn't read the legislation properly and check up on it!

knuth

That fine would pay 27 employees at a rate of €25k for one year.

An Ri rua

ANYONE with any measure of fair play would see that Dunnes Stores are being wronged by anal, revenue-hungry tax officials.

All of you who are against Dunnes out of pure schadenfreude (I generally dislike DS but I believe in fair play and common sense), how many of you have seen people putting extra shopping into the fruit and veg bags and heading off about their business downtown? would you ever get up that garden, ye bunch of legalese children.. :rolleyes:

DS are referring this higher and, on a point of natural justice, I can't see a higher judge not at least commenting on the lack of common sense being applied here.

Snowie

Ghandee wrote: »

the groutch wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dunnes-forced-to-pay-euro36m-plasticbag-tax-bill-2962901.html



it's about time that they were shown that nobody is above the law.
will also be interesting to see will we see the return of the 22c bags to Dunnes' tills now that they know they can't avoid paying tax on them.

In fairness, I didnt think the wee plastic bags for broccolli/meat whatever were subject to the bag levy either

Not a bad idea that

hardCopy

Jesus are people never happy?

It's a tax. Dunnes didn't pay it and got smacked down by Revenue. That's Revenue's job!

Would AH be so sympathetic if a property developer got done for not paying income tax?

Fighting Irish

hardCopy wrote: »

Jesus are people never happy?

It's a tax. Dunnes didn't pay it and got smacked down by Revenue. That's Revenue's job!

Would AH be so sympathetic if a property developer got done for not paying income tax?

Hell no, they made me take out a huge mortgage after all :pac:

Cedrus

snubbleste wrote: »

What's the difference between frozen carrots in a plastic bag and putting fresh carrots in a plastic bag?

25-30 °C ?:D

gigino

CardBordWindow wrote: »

As this has been going on for a few years, the odds are that the 36 million euro fine will probably just go back into the Revenue as wages!

my local greengrocer says he will close down / go bankrupt if he has to pay for all the little flimsy plastic bags people have put their carrors etc in over the years.
And if he sold ready sealed bags of carrots, is there still a tax on them ? I think not .
All that tax is just a money transfer from the struggling, unpensioned private sector to the government ...and we all know how it squanders it.

Nodin

gigino wrote: »

my local greengrocer says he will close down / go bankrupt if he has to pay for all the little flimsy plastic bags people have put their carrors etc in over the years.
And if he sold ready sealed bags of carrots, is there still a tax on them ? I think not .
All that tax is just a money transfer from the struggling private sector to the government ...and we all know how it squanders it.

Jaysus Jimmy gigino, ye just can't stop, can ye.....

K-9

Nodin wrote: »

Jaysus Jimmy gigino, ye just can't stop, can ye.....

Fecking useless private sector accountants and tax advisors.

Anyway, the way I see it, Dunnes took a test case as often happens with Revenue, they lost, they can appeal. The odds are they'd lose so it should be provided for in the accounts.

That doesn't mean shop keepers and the likes of Tesco shouldn't have been aware of the existing law, if anything its a lesser excuse as Dunnes highlighted a problem and made the industry more aware of the law. Dunnes should have provided for this money in its accounts, it wouldn't be prudent otherwise and poor accountancy advice.

As for the argument that Dunnes workers will suffer from this, , yeah Dunnes have a great reputation for treating employees well. Yet another excuse to cut wages and keep profits the same. Shareholders win, oh wait, Dunnes aren't a plc, its a private company.

An Ri rua

K-9 wrote: »

Fecking useless private sector accountants and tax advisors.

Anyway, the way I see it, Dunnes took a test case as often happens with Revenue, they lost, they can appeal. The odds are they'd lose so it should be provided for in the accounts.

That doesn't mean shop keepers and the likes of Tesco shouldn't have been aware of the existing law, if anything its a lesser excuse as Dunnes highlighted a problem and made the industry more aware of the law. Dunnes should have provided for this money in its accounts, it wouldn't be prudent otherwise and poor accountancy advice.

As for the argument that Dunnes workers will suffer from this, , yeah Dunnes have a great reputation for treating employees well. Yet another excuse to cut wages and keep profits the same. Shareholders win, oh wait, Dunnes aren't a plc, its a private company.

Note: a private company also has 'shareholders'.

An Ri rua

I hear there's people wearing these handled plastic bags as underwear, others are wearing them as sick bibs / pelican bibs for babies and alcos...... Dunnes know this and are using it as a competitive edge in providing the handled ones versus the flimsy ones..

Revenue can see that cynical ploy for the bag of sh1t it really is.....