Non Principal Private Residence €200 Charge & Household €100 Charge Question

Grandpa Hassan

jmaycock wrote: »

Maybe some people don't listen to crap radio? And in any case if someone owed me money I would send them a bill. Not assume they know they owe me money. Get off your high horse you piece of s%&t.

Come on....it was everywhere. Tabloids, broadsheets, radio, tv, news. You're seriously saying that you never paid attention to any of these? Most people who own property pay a little attention to what obligations might be associated with it. I'll be joining many of the others who are light on sympathy....

Geuze

jmaycock wrote: »

Maybe some people don't listen to crap radio? And in any case if someone owed me money I would send them a bill. Not assume they know they owe me money. Get off your high horse you piece of s%&t.

It would have been impossible for the Councils to send out NPPR bills, as they don't have a database of NPPR houses.

If there are 50,000 houses in a county, there is no list of which are PPR and which are not PPRs.

So there is no way of identifying who is liable.

It was a self-assessment tax.

Concerned Citizen 2014

Maybe I'm not making myself totally clear here. People are saying that the fact that it is a self assessed tax we should have known about it. The property tax was a self assessed tax and we received a letter concerning it first. My issue is with the fact that we have received a letter suddenly telling us we owe such a huge amount that is in large penalties for something we would have paid on time had we known about it.We were registered with the prtb every time a new lease was needed and, as for the person above who made a comment about people who own a second property not knowing about the charge, we do not own a second property. We rent, hence, if we had ever had the good fortune to hear of this tax we most likely would have raised our eyebrows at the fact that you're being penalised when you have no choice but to live away from the only property we chose to buy.As for the "people who chose to do it for themselves" ie rent out without professional help, we could not afford to seek professional help, we struggle with a mortgage, management fees, repairs, rent and bills in general. In summary, we are not trying to get out of a bill, we may be idiots for not having twigged this tax but we do not feel its fair to pay such horrendous penalties. As for all the holier than thou attitudes, please lighten up, we're just looking for help, we are already as close to the floor as we can get because of our boom time purchase, which we assumed would be somewhere we'd sell on should we decide to have a family, we have never shunned our responsibilities financially and yet here we are, getting beaten down further!

athtrasna

Concerned Citizen 2014 wrote: »

Maybe I'm not making myself totally clear here. People are saying that the fact that it is a self assessed tax we should have known about it. The property tax was a self assessed tax and we received a letter concerning it first. My issue is with the fact that we have received a letter suddenly telling us we owe such a huge amount that is in large penalties for something we would have paid on time had we known about it.

The answer is in this post below. It's possible to know a property exists, knowing whether it's a PPR or not is not simple. Revenue and the PRTB didn't talk at the time and the PRTB database is notoriously out of date anyway. The question I'd have is how did they find out in the end?

Geuze wrote: »

It would have been impossible for the Councils to send out NPPR bills, as they don't have a database of NPPR houses.

If there are 50,000 houses in a county, there is no list of which are PPR and which are not PPRs.

So there is no way of identifying who is liable.

It was a self-assessment tax.

mrsbyrne

I hope you don't think I'm being holier then thou. I'm just trying to advise you. The facts are this. If you were very wealthy you could try to mount a legal challenge to the fines and penalties.. the case would drag on for yearsinto Brussels and probably ultimately fail leaving you with a huge legal bill as well as the NPPR.
your clearly not wealthy so that's out.
The government drafted legislation which was passed into law which basically says that this was a self assessment tax, that the penalties would be imposed.in my opinion it was very well advertised and discussed and dissected at length across the media.
You have until 31 August to discuss payment terms with your local authority. After that if you still have done nothing the amount you owe jumps to over €7000. Next year you will be paying water charges, but you will get a bill, you just need to take on board from now on to be conscious of your water usage .

Concerned Citizen 2014

Thanks, we have been in contact and have been advised to contact them after our scheduled meeting with mabs. Pity education doesn't prepare you for the harsh reality of life,eh?You never think you'll become the "squeezed middle," teetering and just about hitting the upper end of poverty(still have roof(s;)) over our head, food,can just about manage kids doctors bills etc.)Guess we'll be proceeding as we expected then...no respite!;)

Geuze

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I
The government drafted legislation which was passed into law which basically says that this was a self assessment tax, that the penalties would be imposed.in my opinion it was very well advertised and discussed and dissected at length across the media.

I agree that the HHC and LPT were widely discussed.

But I say that the NPPR was not widely discussed in the media, as it was seen as a "second house tax" (not quite true).

So I am not surprised that there are thousands of people not in compliance with the NPPR tax.

mrsbyrne

Many of the people getting these bills now did in fact know they were liable but felt they were evading it successfully, for 5 years, and felt that they had been successfully in this evasion considering the NPPR was declared abolished last year.
The NPPR was announced at least a year before it came into being and there were frequent reminders in the form of public service announcements on the TV and radio and in the national papers for 6 years.Its incredible that people knew about the HC and the LPT but not the NPPR.

Roanmore

Concerned Citizen 2014 wrote: »

No you are calculating it appropriately, they have added in additional charges as we didn't pay on time.

I thought the additional charges was the 20 euro a month for every month it wasn't paid, are there additional charges on top of this?

murphaph

As I said in my opener...if it's about "forcing compliance" then why don't we apply the same sort of rates to ALL offences, just to make sure we get compliance like?

Parking and speeding tickets are clearly way too lenient...should be a few grand to make sure we get compliance!

Grandpa Hassan

Roanmore wrote: »

I thought the additional charges was the 20 euro a month for every month it wasn't paid, are there additional charges on top of this?

I think you are thinking of the household charge

Grandpa Hassan

murphaph wrote: »

As I said in my opener...if it's about "forcing compliance" then why don't we apply the same sort of rates to ALL offences, just to make sure we get compliance like?

Parking and speeding tickets are clearly way too lenient...should be a few grand to make sure we get compliance!

Don't suggest it....I am sure that there are plenty of people that think we should!

jmaycock

athtrasna wrote: »

Which was agreed by FF with the Troika! Every Western country has some sort of property tax, it was something that had to be brought in whether we liked it or not.

The bottom line is that this NPPR was brought in, advertised widely and yet evaded on a large scale. Evasion either on purpose or by accident but evasion no less. I for one am glad that it's being pursued, the more money this brings to the exchequer the less they're going to have to increase the tax I pay. Just because you're not asked to pay a tax, it doesn't mean you're not liable to pay. There's an element of self-education involved.

The recession caused a lot of people (myself included) to become "accidental landlords". The level of research and compliance varies hugely across those people. We paid an accountant to do our tax returns and make sure that we were compliant. Not necessary but it was worth it for peace of mind. Others did that all themselves, others deliberately decided not to pay taxes, others didn't even think of the tax implications.

Yes, others, like concerned citizen didn't purposefully evade the tax, they just didn't think about it/know about it.

In my opinion it is a sham and a shame that the government get to wait 4 years before sending a first bill which is laden with overdue charges and penalties. And don't tell me that that is the law and the responsibility is with citizens to know what taxes they should be paying. I KNOW THAT. It doesn't make it right.

Reminds me of the difference between pirates and emperors…

jmaycock

athtrasna wrote: »

It was always the responsibility of the individual to pay the charge. From its inception it was advertised as you must register and pay. It's like the prtb, nobody sends you a registration form but as a landlord it's your responsibility to register. Bills are being sent out to those people who failed in their obligation to pay the NPPR and there are perfectly legal but very high penalties. If the landlord had paid in the first place this wouldn't be an issue!

What is it - state the obvious day? I am perfectly aware of the law. THAT IS NOT MY POINT. This poor unfortunate fellow has been hit with a bill ringing in at 422% more than the original tax was meant to bring in. His only crime was ignorance of the existence of such a law.

Now I know that "It was always the responsibility of the individual to pay the charge" yada yada yada. You tell me what other organisation gets away with this PERFECTLY LEGAL criminality. Tell me. No one. The government and tax authorities should be made to send out bills if they want to receive money. Or reminders that as a landlord you need to make sure to pay the NPPR etc. etc.

And citizens should unite to insist on this. Take to the streets. Don't stand for it.

Disgraceful disgraceful disgraceful. Shame Shame Shame.

Take to the streets. Take to the media. Stand up to this shower of incompetent losers.

I mean, it took them 4 years. 4 YEARS???????

Why not send the bill after the FIRST year?

I'll tell you why. Because they are a terribly incompetent bunch of wasters.

jmaycock

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Come on....it was everywhere. Tabloids, broadsheets, radio, tv, news. You're seriously saying that you never paid attention to any of these? Most people who own property pay a little attention to what obligations might be associated with it. I'll be joining many of the others who are light on sympathy....

I knew about it. So what. I am not the person who was hit with a bill 4 years late and 422% of amount due.

Can you for just a moment explain to me why it took the tax authorities 4 years to get themselves together enough to send this bill out? First year passes, pass the sugar Paddy while I drink ANOTHER CUP OF TEA.

Bunch of absolute wasters.

People have to start demanding changes to things that are quite clearly ridiculous.

Governments should be afraid of their people - not the other way around.

jmaycock

Geuze wrote: »

It would have been impossible for the Councils to send out NPPR bills, as they don't have a database of NPPR houses.

If there are 50,000 houses in a county, there is no list of which are PPR and which are not PPRs.

So there is no way of identifying who is liable.

It was a self-assessment tax.

What a stupid stupid excuse. Excuses. That is all I hear.

If you are correct, how did they receive a bill 4 years later. What event occurred which meant that suddenly the Council knew who they were. Why did this gem of information take 4 years to TURN INTO A BILL????

Answer me that if you can.

jmaycock

Concerned Citizen 2014 wrote: »

Maybe I'm not making myself totally clear here. People are saying that the fact that it is a self assessed tax we should have known about it. The property tax was a self assessed tax and we received a letter concerning it first. My issue is with the fact that we have received a letter suddenly telling us we owe such a huge amount that is in large penalties for something we would have paid on time had we known about it.We were registered with the prtb every time a new lease was needed and, as for the person above who made a comment about people who own a second property not knowing about the charge, we do not own a second property. We rent, hence, if we had ever had the good fortune to hear of this tax we most likely would have raised our eyebrows at the fact that you're being penalised when you have no choice but to live away from the only property we chose to buy.As for the "people who chose to do it for themselves" ie rent out without professional help, we could not afford to seek professional help, we struggle with a mortgage, management fees, repairs, rent and bills in general. In summary, we are not trying to get out of a bill, we may be idiots for not having twigged this tax but we do not feel its fair to pay such horrendous penalties. As for all the holier than thou attitudes, please lighten up, we're just looking for help, we are already as close to the floor as we can get because of our boom time purchase, which we assumed would be somewhere we'd sell on should we decide to have a family, we have never shunned our responsibilities financially and yet here we are, getting beaten down further!

Hear hear.

I will stand with you and fight this thing. Tell me what you need.

I love a good fight.

Grandpa Hassan

jmaycock wrote: »

I knew about it. So what. I am not the person who was hit with a bill 4 years late and 422% of amount due.

Can you for just a moment explain to me why it took the tax authorities 4 years to get themselves together enough to send this bill out? First year passes, pass the sugar Paddy while I drink ANOTHER CUP OF TEA.

Bunch of absolute wasters.

People have to start demanding changes to things that are quite clearly ridiculous.

Governments should be afraid of their people - not the other way around.

They did not have a database to chase people up. They could not send bills, nor could they send reminders, as they did not know who was subject to the tax.....did not know who was not living in the home that they owned. So it was 100% self assessment.

How they have subseqently tracked people down, I have no idea. An organisation somewhere must have shared information, to allow them cross reference residence against ownership

Leslie91

Concerned Citizen 2014 wrote: »

Maybe I'm not making myself totally clear here. People are saying that the fact that it is a self assessed tax we should have known about it. The property tax was a self assessed tax and we received a letter concerning it first. My issue is with the fact that we have received a letter suddenly telling us we owe such a huge amount that is in large penalties for something we would have paid on time had we known about it.We were registered with the prtb every time a new lease was needed and, as for the person above who made a comment about people who own a second property not knowing about the charge, we do not own a second property. We rent, hence, if we had ever had the good fortune to hear of this tax we most likely would have raised our eyebrows at the fact that you're being penalised when you have no choice but to live away from the only property we chose to buy.As for the "people who chose to do it for themselves" ie rent out without professional help, we could not afford to seek professional help, we struggle with a mortgage, management fees, repairs, rent and bills in general. In summary, we are not trying to get out of a bill, we may be idiots for not having twigged this tax but we do not feel its fair to pay such horrendous penalties. As for all the holier than thou attitudes, please lighten up, we're just looking for help, we are already as close to the floor as we can get because of our boom time purchase, which we assumed would be somewhere we'd sell on should we decide to have a family, we have never shunned our responsibilities financially and yet here we are, getting beaten down further!

I'll second the PRTB thing. Like you we registered for that also, you'd think NPPR and the PRTB shower would communicate with each other wouldn't you?

Nope.... it is incredulous how their incompetence is pushed onto the likes of us who are/were trying to make a go of it. I see someone else has mentioned that the PRTB DB is madly out of date. Why is this I wonder?, what are we paying for at all?...... nothing in return simple as.

Good luck with getting some fair treatment.

mrsbyrne

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

They did not have a database to chase people up. They could not send bills, nor could they send reminders, as they did not know who was subject to the tax.....did not know who was not living in the home that they owned. So it was 100% self assessment.

How they have subseqently tracked people down, I have no idea. An organisation somewhere must have shared information, to allow them cross reference residence against ownership

It was easy to track them down. Once the OP paid the LPT on the property, then it became apparent that it was a NPPR.

murphaph

You have to wonder WHY is there no discretion allowed for in the legislation? If you deliberately evade income tax or whatever, Revenue have discretion as to what to come after you for.

Think for a moment about Alzheimer's. You have a little holiday home somewhere and develop the disease and it's several years before anyone else around you realises it's an issue (and is too busy trying to look after you anyway). The liability remains. No right to appeal because the legislation doesn't allow for it because it is extremely poorly written law. It is a shambles. The tax is due, the severity of the penalties surrounding it are inexcusable.

mrsbyrne

jmaycock wrote: »

Here here.

I will stand with you and fight this thing. Tell me what you need.

I love a good fight.

That's good. The OP needs plenty of money to pay legal fees to fight the government. Its great you have stepped forward to become a benefactor, you feel so strongly about this, despite having been told that over and over that there was no database from which to select homes to bill.
I look forward to hearing how you get on with your legal battle.I. hope the OP appreciates your stepping up to the plate with your offer of help.

Victor

jmaycock wrote: »

I knew about it. So what. I am not the person who was hit with a bill 4 years late and 422% of amount due.

Can you for just a moment explain to me why it took the tax authorities 4 years to get themselves together enough to send this bill out? First year passes, pass the sugar Paddy while I drink ANOTHER CUP OF TEA.

Bunch of absolute wasters.

People have to start demanding changes to things that are quite clearly ridiculous.

Governments should be afraid of their people - not the other way around.

I'm not sure if a bulletin board is the right place for you. Can I suggest a blog instead?

No "SHOUTING" please.

Moderator

MouseTail

mrsbyrne wrote: »

It was easy to track them down. Once the OP paid the LPT on the property, then it became apparent that it was a NPPR.

how so? The OP only has one house, so how would paying one LPT flag up that it was a NPPR? As for the PRTB list, lots of second homes that are not rented out. There was simply no way of knowing which houses are NPPRs.

jmaycock

mrsbyrne wrote: »

That's good. The OP needs plenty of money to pay legal fees to fight the government. Its great you have stepped forward to become a benefactor, you feel so strongly about this, despite having been told that over and over that there was no database from which to select homes to bill.
I look forward to hearing how you get on with your legal battle.I. hope the OP appreciates your stepping up to the plate with your offer of help.

Aren't you very full of yourself Mrs Byrne.

A fight is coming and I will be involved. Just watch.

Excuses, excuses. No database. Yada yada yada. This would not be accepted in any other country in the world. A sham and a disgrace.

The_Morrigan

jmaycock wrote: »

Aren't you very full of yourself Mrs Byrne.

A fight is coming and I will be involved. Just watch.

Excuses, excuses. No database. Yada yada yada. This would not be accepted in any other country in the world. A sham and a disgrace.

Please don't post in this thread again, you're not contributing to the discussion in a constructive way. We do not allow soapboxing here so please stop.

jmaycock

Victor wrote: »

I'm not sure if a bulletin board is the right place for you. Can I suggest a blog instead?

No "SHOUTING" please.

Moderator

Caps are not allowed. Is that what you are saying? Please be specific.

And no. I think this is the perfect place to discuss the issue. There will be other places too. But is it not clear that people are responding to the discussion. Is that not the whole point of boards.ie? To have discussions.

Or should I create a blog for the question as to whether this is the place for such a discussion too Mr. Moderator?

jmaycock

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Please don't post in this thread again, you're not contributing to the discussion in a constructive way. We do not allow soapboxing here so please stop.

Ban me if you want.

But I am contributing to the discussion.

The_Morrigan

jmaycock wrote: »

Ban me if you want.

But I am contributing to the discussion.

You're not, you're ranting and shouting.
But as you've ignore all warnings your wish shall be granted.

Grandpa Hassan

I would be interested as to whether PTRB, utilities etc are providing info to the revenue now, so that they are able to cross reference peoples residence against their ownership. I don't know how else they would know to bill the OP