i will not be paying the property tax

Sully

What legal advise is the national campaign giving out? Surely there isn't actually any legal grounds at all where you can refuse to pay this - bar just taking a chance they wont bring everyone to court?

Am Chile

Sully wrote: »

An interesting article from TheJournal. Id love to quote it, but I don't think I can with copyright legislation. It talks about the various ideas put forward by those who are opposing the treaty - in terms of its legality. It doesn't deal with the issue of the tax either side, it just deals with the most popular nonsense spread about how we can ignore it legally. Its probably the only credible source and its not reported by mainstream media sources as of yet, just for the first time it appears on one such site through a private column.

Column: Ignore the conspiracy theories – the household charge must be paid



Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-ignore-the-conspiracy-theories-the-household-charge-must-be-paid/

As an aside though, is there any source which gives Pros and Cons to this tax? I feel for those who have paid tax when they purchased their house and are now being asked to cough up again, which is why I am not comfortable with this tax. Saying that, we do need a tax for local services and I do think that this tax, despite what others are suggesting, will indeed deal with local services and not the bank / debt issue.

Just to clear things up. This advise is coming from the ‘freemen’ group. The legal advise the Don’t Register – Don’t pay camapign is from fully trained and practicing solicitors who will act for people if it ever gets to the courts.

To confirm the freemen have no Involvement whatsoever with the national Anti Household Tax campaign. Their views are extreme wheras the members of the campaign are mostly just regular people who want to make a peaceful stand, our message is straightforward and simple don,t register don,t pay.

Am Chile

Sully wrote: »

What legal advise is the national campaign giving out? Surely there isn't actually any legal grounds at all where you can refuse to pay this - bar just taking a chance they wont bring everyone to court?

If people are brought to court, the campaign will have legal defence provided for non payers.

Sully

Am Chile wrote: »

If people are brought to court, the campaign will have legal defence provided for non payers.

But what argument can you provide for non payment of tax?

Am Chile

Sully wrote: »

But what argument can you provide for non payment of tax?

It will be the lawyers job to give the argument in court for their client.

Sully

Am Chile wrote: »

It will be the lawyers job to give the argument in court for their client.

Fair point. Besides donations, how could you pay for thousands of people if they all were brought to court?

Cant see it happening tho. Id say it will just be tied to the house making it hard to sell if they try.

Am Chile

Sully wrote: »

Fair point. Besides donations, how could you pay for thousands of people if they all were brought to court?

Cant see it happening tho. Id say it will just be tied to the house making it hard to sell if they try.

To my knowledge anti household tax campaigns in most areas have been organising a membership drive,once someone signs up as a member of the campaign and pays €5, the money raised goes towards legal defence.

On the threat they make if you don,t pay they put a charge on someones property is Not an automatic charge. It may become one but it would take a court case to order it. This is by no means certain to happen. If it ever did happen the charge can only be for a period of 12 years.

Sully

But if each member, of half of the members, are brought to court its gonna cost a pretty penny fighting it in the courts. 5euro per person wont/cant pay for that.

Am Chile

Sully wrote: »

But if each member, of half of the members, are brought to court its gonna cost a pretty penny fighting it in the courts. 5euro per person wont/cant pay for that.

The money raised in total nationally will cover it, from various public meetings nationally attended bu hundreds, and membership stalls, Id take it by now they have raised plenty of money, I suspect the court cases when the time comes, they will try a few test cases, more then likely the ring leaders of the campaign will be targeted more so then ordinary people.

insight_man

The idea is safety in numbers. The courts can only handle a certain numbers of cases. The workload is already too much and if they tried to bring everyone to court the whole system will break down. Its strenght in numbers that will win this one.

insight_man

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well I am one of the 70,000 in Galway who has not paid and dont intend to either. The government has underestimated the people on this one. Im sure they are not looking forward to the reception they will get on the doorsteps when they are canvassing to get the treaty passed.

Fair play to you galwayguy35. Its all about sticking together and refusing to pay. As for the treaty you won't see too many FG or LAB people out on the doors canvassing. They will use our taxes to try and convince us to vote yes. Same old approach as previous government.

Sully

insight_man wrote: »

Fair play to you galwayguy35. Its all about sticking together and refusing to pay. As for the treaty you won't see too many FG or LAB people out on the doors canvassing. They will use our taxes to try and convince us to vote yes. Same old approach as previous government.

Doubt it, you will see them canvassing alright but they don't tend to canvass (opposition or government) as heavy as they would in an election.

insight_man

Sully wrote: »

Doubt it, you will see them canvassing alright but they don't tend to canvass (opposition or government) as heavy as they would in an election.

Agreed canvassing is never as heavy as it would be in an election. Looks like it will be passed anyway.

Nypd

Well if they don't get a yes vote the first time they will definatley get a yes the second time !!!!!!!

nkay1985

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/council-staff-to-knock-on-doors-for-100-house-charge-3060116.html

An interesting step up in pressure from Big Phil. I'm guessing they're very worried by the number of people refusing to register so are going to try anything in this last week.

The reason I bring it up here is that I'm curious as to what Waterford City Council will do in this situation. They officially oppose the household charge so can they then turn around and make their staff go door to door as is being suggested in the article?

abouttobebanned

The Question they're afraid to answer, and constantly change the subject when asked...what will happen if people refuse to pay the charge and the subsequent fines.

nkay1985

abouttobebanned wrote: »

The Question they're afraid to answer, and constantly change the subject when asked...what will happen if people refuse to pay the charge and the subsequent fines.

Well they're certainly very shy of talking about just how long the whole process is etc. They jump straight to people having to pay thousands in fines and being hauled before the courts when the reality is that that's all very far down the line. Think the final bill 12 months after not paying is €142. They're not too keen to let people know that as they have enough trouble on their hands trying to get people to register already.

The reality is that they might pursue a number of high-profile people to the fullest extent but before they can do that, local elections will be on the horizon and they'll have had to try to introduce a full-blown property tax. I wonder would they have the stomachs for the fight then.

Finnbar01

Just can't understand how the Irish public bent over and allowed the government to foist on them NAMA and Bank debts that will run to €0000's per person.

Yet the same Irish public are get all hysterical over a lousy €100.

mikom

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Yet the same Irish public are get all hysterical over a lousy €100.

Come back to me in 5 years and see what registering up does to your wallet year after year as the charge and all other taxes rise.

Finnbar01

mikom wrote: »

Come back to me in 5 years and see what registering up does to your wallet year after year as the charge and all other taxes rise.

I'm against the household tax too. I just don't understand why Irish people are not putting the same effort when it comes to bank debts and NAMA.

ex_infantry man

we should'nt have bailed the banks out!! just look at what AIB are about to do!!! introduce bank charges again and wipe away free banking unless ya have over two grand in your account and there owned by us!!! yet again screwing us

Statistician

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I'm against the household tax too. I just don't understand why Irish people are not putting the same effort when it comes to bank debts and NAMA.

For me, this is about bank debts and NAMA. It's the first real opportunity I have had to protest against the government.
I'm far too busy trying to make money to live to go marching etc, so by not paying this I can protest.

Anyway, this money is in effect going to pay bondholders. I know they've spun it to say it's for local services, but it isn't really.

Here are my reasons for not paying:
1. I do not want to give this personal information to the government.
2. I do not want to pay €100 to people who are richer than I am for their gambling debts.
3. I wish to protest against this government who are essentially the same as FF. Only by protesting will we get real political change.
4. I can afford €100 now, but I may not be able to afford the €1000+ they'll be looking for in future years.
5. It is an unfair tax. It is my civic duty to protest this for me and everyone else in Ireland. Some people may be scared into paying by the government, so all the more reason for me not to pay.

This money will be misappropriated.

nkay1985

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I'm against the household tax too. I just don't understand why Irish people are not putting the same effort when it comes to bank debts and NAMA.

I think Statitician has hit the nail on the head. This is the first time we can tangibly protest against the government's actions. I, for one, am delighted to see so many people holding their nerve on this.

Hoffmans

this cute hoor dupe that they're trying to spin-only a 100€ ,
once your duped into it your on their new database for property taxs, tv taxes, water taxes, shyte taxs -septic tank,
the threatening spin in the past week will problally frighten pensioners into reg-in,

anyone else with a bit a backbone should see it thru and put em back in their trioca'ra box.
...

jezko

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Just can't understand how the Irish public bent over and allowed the government to foist on them NAMA and Bank debts that will run to €0000's per person.

Yet the same Irish public are get all hysterical over a lousy €100.

I feel that most Irish People feel betrayed by our elected "betters" paying Bond holders money they Lost on a Gamble, Are we getting hysterical over 100Euro...
No We are getting our message across that reimbursing Gamblers, money that they lost on a lame Horse is not going to happen again...

I Personally Don't have an issue with a Property/Service tax where services were increased/Improved according ... But I Won't be paying any till I believe this and the next governments won't be P!$$ing our taxes down the drain

savic04

A guy on the Joe Duffy show said he rang his bank and asked them how much was paid off his mortgage loan and not interest payment, the bank gave him a figure which related to 3%..

so he said basically ye own 97% of my house, is that right? to which bank said yes.. and he said thats fine, so ye can pay 97 euro to the government for the household charge..

Finnbar01

savic04 wrote: »

A guy on the Joe Duffy show said he rang his bank and asked them how much was paid off his mortgage loan and not interest payment, the bank gave him a figure which related to 3%..

so he said basically ye own 97% of my house, is that right? to which bank said yes.. and he said thats fine, so ye can pay 97 euro to the government for the household charge..

If he's not happy with the set up of his mortgage, he can always give back the house.

MyKeyG

All I can say folks is by all means don't pay the property tax. Just don't come crying back to boards when your child support/carers/dole is cut to recoup the money the government planned to gain on the property tax.

I'm long term unemployed so am going back to college to do something beneficial with tax payers hard earned dosh. I'd rather pay €100 once off than have my back to education allowance cut by €10 a week forever.

Simples.

Newaglish

savic04 wrote: »

A guy on the Joe Duffy show said he rang his bank and asked them how much was paid off his mortgage loan and not interest payment, the bank gave him a figure which related to 3%..

so he said basically ye own 97% of my house, is that right? to which bank said yes.. and he said thats fine, so ye can pay 97 euro to the government for the household charge..

That's not how a mortgage works. He owns 100% of his house and the purchase was financed by a loan equal to the price of the house which is secured on the property.

batm!ke

List of housing estates exempt from charge in Waterford City

savic04

Newaglish wrote: »

That's not how a mortgage works. He owns 100% of his house and the purchase was financed by a loan equal to the price of the house which is secured on the property.

you are prob right, just sayign what i heard..

anyway, why can bank take back the house if they dont own it..
Dont you only get your title deeds on last payment, same with a HP Car ?

Hoffmans

MyKeyG wrote: »

All I can say folks is by all means don't pay the property tax. Just don't come crying back to boards when your child support/carers/dole is cut to recoup the money the government planned to gain on the property tax.

I'm long term unemployed so am going back to college to do something beneficial with tax payers hard earned dosh. I'd rather pay €100 once off than have my back to education allowance cut by €10 a week forever.

Simples.

no point being in college atall if your living in dreamworld your fees will be double in the next few years...

fact is the waterford city council voted against the household lien recently so they will hardly be helping collect it from ordinary folk....

Finnbar01

batm!ke wrote: »

List of housing estates exempt from charge in Waterford City

All I see is a red X. How do I get the picture to show?

batm!ke

Finnbar01 wrote: »

All I see is a red X. How do I get the picture to show?

Hmmm... dunno why that is, here's the link for the City anyway, and for those interested Waterford County

membersonly

savic04 wrote: »

A guy on the Joe Duffy show said he rang his bank and asked them how much was paid off his mortgage loan and not interest payment, the bank gave him a figure which related to 3%..

so he said basically ye own 97% of my house, is that right? to which bank said yes.. and he said thats fine, so ye can pay 97 euro to the government for the household charge..

He sounds great.

wmpdd3

mmmm, looking at the unfinished estates in waterford, i'd agree with most, but it looks like the whole of ferrybank is an unfinished estate?

https://www.householdcharge.ie/UHE/Kilkenny.pdf

Christendom avenue is the only one i would have thought...

i dont live in those estate and wont be paying anyway...

nkay1985

wmpdd3 wrote: »

mmmm, looking at the unfinished estates in waterford, i'd agree with most, but it looks like the whole of ferrybank is an unfinished estate?

https://www.householdcharge.ie/UHE/Kilkenny.pdf

Christendom avenue is the only one i would have thought...

i dont live in those estate and wont be paying anyway...

Yeah I live in Cnoic Caisleán and I've no idea how that's on the list. The builder is still building the bottom half of it like.

MyKeyG

Hoffmans wrote: »

no point being in college atall if your living in dreamworld your fees will be double in the next few years...

fact is the waterford city council voted against the household lien recently so they will hardly be helping collect it from ordinary folk....

Those in receipt of the back to education allowance are exempt from fees. Learn your facts before you accuse others of living in a dream world.

jo06555

MyKeyG wrote: »

All I can say folks is by all means don't pay the property tax. Just don't come crying back to boards when your child support/carers/dole is cut to recoup the money the government planned to gain on the property tax.

I'm long term unemployed so am going back to college to do something beneficial with tax payers hard earned dosh. I'd rather pay €100 once off than have my back to education allowance cut by €10 a week forever.

Simples.

Just remember in 5 years time will you be happy paying 500 - 800 euro??

sandin

When the rubbish from the weekend nights isn't cleaned up, when the public parks are overgrown, when the footpaths are no longer safe, when the street lighting is turned off, when the school warden is let go, when the fresh clean water stops running, when the recycling centres are closed, when fly tipping is not cleared up, when pollution is rife in our rivers and streams, will those who are not paying, pay then?

This is a local servcies tax, its needed. Businesses can't pay any more or even more will go bust and more jobs will be lost.

We all gain from local servcies, the day of the free ride is over.

BTW, EVERYONE should pay, there should be no waivers whatsoever. Discount schemes instead so that everyone finally appreciates what has been provided for free for years.

ps - in the UK I had to pay £2642 2 years a go! on top of a far higher basic rate of tax and on a smaller salary!

JPA

sandin wrote: »

When the rubbish from the weekend nights isn't cleaned up, when the public parks are overgrown, when the footpaths are no longer safe, when the street lighting is turned off, when the school warden is let go, when the fresh clean water stops running, when the recycling centres are closed, when fly tipping is not cleared up, when pollution is rife in our rivers and streams, will those who are not paying, pay then?

This is a local servcies tax, its needed. Businesses can't pay any more or even more will go bust and more jobs will be lost.

We all gain from local servcies, the day of the free ride is over.

BTW, EVERYONE should pay, there should be no waivers whatsoever. Discount schemes instead so that everyone finally appreciates what has been provided for free for years.

ps - in the UK I had to pay £2642 2 years a go! on top of a far higher basic rate of tax and on a smaller salary!

The problem is nobody believes that spiel about local services, it's simply viewed as another way to pay off the IMF.

abouttobebanned

sandin wrote: »

When the rubbish from the weekend nights isn't cleaned up, when the public parks are overgrown, when the footpaths are no longer safe, when the street lighting is turned off, when the school warden is let go, when the fresh clean water stops running, when the recycling centres are closed, when fly tipping is not cleared up, when pollution is rife in our rivers and streams, will those who are not paying, pay then?

This is a local servcies tax, its needed. Businesses can't pay any more or even more will go bust and more jobs will be lost.

We all gain from local servcies, the day of the free ride is over.

BTW, EVERYONE should pay, there should be no waivers whatsoever. Discount schemes instead so that everyone finally appreciates what has been provided for free for years.

ps - in the UK I had to pay £2642 2 years a go! on top of a far higher basic rate of tax and on a smaller salary!

Did you also pay a massive stamp duty when you bought your home? And also pay for your own rubbish collection etc?

wellboytoo

Tenner says ye will all be paying it this time next year with not a whimper!:D

junglejim1

Did you also pay a massive stamp duty when you bought your home?

Actually stamp duty rates are higher in the UK.

And also pay for your own rubbish collection etc?

Rubbish collection is paid for through council tax, currently we pay £210 a month.

Don't get me started on water rates!

samina

abouttobebanned wrote: »

sandin wrote: »

When the rubbish from the weekend nights isn't cleaned up, when the public parks are overgrown, when the footpaths are no longer safe, when the street lighting is turned off, when the school warden is let go, when the fresh clean water stops running, when the recycling centres are closed, when fly tipping is not cleared up, when pollution is rife in our rivers and streams, will those who are not paying, pay then?

This is a local servcies tax, its needed. Businesses can't pay any more or even more will go bust and more jobs will be lost.

We all gain from local servcies, the day of the free ride is over.

BTW, EVERYONE should pay, there should be no waivers whatsoever. Discount schemes instead so that everyone finally appreciates what has been provided for free for years.

ps - in the UK I had to pay £2642 2 years a go! on top of a far higher basic rate of tax and on a smaller salary!

Did you also pay a massive stamp duty when you bought your home? And also pay for your own rubbish collection etc?

Or healthcare, education or even plastic bags

oliv84

I wont be paying this either a pack of b@stards is all that government is

sandin

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Did you also pay a massive stamp duty when you bought your home? And also pay for your own rubbish collection etc?

Yes, paid stamp duty on the house. Also paid over £400 in water charges. Didn't pay for refuse though.

Don't forget, there weren't a huge number of people who paid massive amounts of duty on houses here. Primarily investors and those trading up. When the real property tax comes in, there should be a discount to reflect this.

Most first time buyers didn't pay any stamp duty and on top of that have had very generous government support through tax relief on mortgages.

sandin

JPA wrote: »

The problem is nobody believes that spiel about local services, it's simply viewed as another way to pay off the IMF.

Legally the money is ringfenced for local services.

Business just can't be expected to pay for all these servcies - it was always unfair way of collecting. I looked at opening a business in Carlow a while ago. The rent was €24,000 which was reasonable, but rates and water charges were over €10,000 a year.

I declined and have decided to stay in my current employment. - It would have created 2 full time jobs, but the rates killed the project at stage one.

One good thing about people paying rates / services charge is finally many will wake up to the wastage in councils and hopefully their voting in local elections will reflect that. (35 councils in a country the size of Ireland is a joke!)

Darren1922

The fact is that just because the Government make a new Law(or tax) that does not mean it is fair or just. And in this case it deff is neither! I fully support anybody who doesen't pay this tax.(not that my support will get you past the Mountain of cowards who do pay it)

No Country in the history of this Planet has ever taxed itself out of a recession. Enda Kenny is a Gob****e, and his Government are pure useless and expect everybody else to pick up the pieces of this Country which they themselves have scattered. Don't pay the damn thing, simple as.

Dum_Dum

The mistake the government made was paying Wall Street/City of London out of the local government fund whereas they should have taken it from orphanages/dying cancer patients/sick children. That way the household charge could be re-branded the Help the Dying Children Charge. Now who would march against that?